The prior post on the buffalo attack has got a little ugly thus maybe a new one. Having been there onsite and being the owner of the gun in question perhaps I can offer some facts.

What I describe in the articles is NOT as described by some here on the other post. Not even close. However, in thier defense, the editors of the articles did not allow the space to describe as clearly.

PLEASE READ CLOSELY.

I do not proclaim to be a veteran gunsmith or have a great knowledge of guns, name parts etc... but I likely have more experience with firearms and hunting dangerous game than the average hunter. This was not my first dance with a charging animal. Far from it.

For the record: When the buffalo charged, my rifle had a round chambered with the saftey in the FULL REAR POSITION. NOT THE MIDDLE POSITION. REPEAT! NOT THE MIDDLE POSTION.

Factory model 70's have a degree of slop in the bolt housing. This is where the problem starts and did with mine. The bolt does not lock down firm (like say a cz 550) when in full rear safe position. On all factory m-70's that I have handled it is possible to elevate the bolt slightly.

On my rifle, because of this movement, when the saftey wing was pushed forward from the REAR position, then reached the middle position the plunger could not find the hole or (dedent) to continue to the full forward firing position. It simply would not go past middle position until I moved the bolt. It costed me precious milli-seconds. This is what happened.

I had plenty of time to think about what might have happened including the second guessing and the possibility that I may have somehow got the saftey to middle position. I held that self inflicted mis-guided guilt for weeks. However, I duplicated the same problem a couple times after I finally got my rifle back 3 weeks later in Joburg.

One may have to try it multiple times to have it happen but it can and will happen again to some of these rifles.

I've also duplicated it with a few other model 70 owners rifles so those who think the cherished and beloved m-70's are perfect might think again. I've been a devoted M-70 owner for years but now my confidence is less.

This has happened to other M-70 owners, in serious and non-serious situations. These people called me to discuss thier experience AFTER our accident.

The fact of the matter is that this design is potentially flawed. The Winchester people that I talked to ( Yes, despite being a "bone head" as refered to by some other bone head on here, I did call them.) were guarded yet reluctantly agreed that there is some play in the housing but within "SPECS"! Get the picture?

The fact that the bolt will raise up while the saftey wing is in the middle position is another inherent risk in itself and very inconvienient because the saftey always catches on clothing or brush while in rear position and it can move to middle or forward position when not desired. Dangerous.
Same thing on some other side mount wing or lever safties. I think a 2 position saftey that is ON or OFF ( none of this middle postion BS) mounted on the tang like the older rugers and double rifles etc..... thumb operated, is the best possible natural positon for a saftey IMO.

Remember folks, this experience is a fairly rare but possible mechanical failure, which I was previously unaware of and it happened at the worst possible moment. It may not happen on all M-70's. Maybe just the ones that were born with a defect.

BTW, No, I would never have my safety off until I'm ready to shoot.

The fact that I could not get my saftey off for a brief second to get one frontal charging shot into the buffalo's head really upsets me because I might have stopped him. But I might not have. He wasn't exactly standing still. Ultimately I still did with the same rifle that failed me.

I have elected to included this factual information in our written stories and on this post because I do not want the same thing to happen to some else. I fully knew there would be arm chair experts and possible real gun experts that would say my saftey was in the middle position and the bolt was elevated but they are incorrect. I could have easily said nothing. If what I open up here helps save someones life and prevents them from everything we went thru or other less serious issues then I can happily accept some ignorant assumptions. The potential problem can be fixed by a good gunsmith.

The fact we were in this position ultimately is because we took a poor original shot and this M-70 experience is a collateral by-product. Most everthing that could go wrong on this safari did. If it's mechanical it can fail. When Murphy's Law applies to you it's likely out of your control. Fate determines the rest. I do not intend to further visit this subject. What happened is done. I'm moving on.......perhaps to another weapon.

Terry Carr: I sincerly appreciate your defense of my wife. Unlike the others, at least she could still wear her underware.

Thanks for taking the time to share that Keith! And thanks for dropping by...haven't seen you on-line for a little while.

I missed the whole thing on the other thread, but I too thank Terry for nipping it in the bud.

Cheers,
Canuck

Keith,

Thanks for the info. A year or so ago I was badmouthing the 3-position safety for another reason and got crucified. I have gone to the 2-position safety as I hope you have.

Best wished to your wife in her continued recovery.

Bill

Very interesting. Thank you. I'm off to check the safety on my Ruger RSM.

Regrets are a SOB! $hit happens and that is how we all learn. Thanks be to God, your wife and you survived. You and she paid in blood and tears for the rest of us to learn. I have heard! You are and have been in our prayers.

You mentioned the flawed safety can be fixed by a competent gunsmith. What exactly is the flaw and precisely what is done to fix it. I have over 100 modle 70's and half that number of Mausers with two and three position safety's that I might want to fix. Thank you for your time.

Keith,

Thanks for sharing that explanation.

How did you find George Hallamore as a PH……I’m not asking for more comments regarding your wife’s nasty incident, but rather because I am hunting buff with him in Dande in August?

Thank you sir. I'm sure that you realize that the great majority of us simply held our tongues while the "experts" debated what might have or could have happened. I sure appreciate you coming by and telling us the real story of the incident.

I am glad to hear that your wife and you are doing better and I hope for a complete recovery for both of you and many more days afield.

Excuse me while I go check my M70's function.

Frank

EDIT:
I just checked my one M70 (375H&H) and I can lift the bolt approximately 1/4" with the safety in the rearmost position but the safety still goes all of the way forward and the rifle fires with the bolt that way. I hit the bolt hard in the up direction with the heel of my hand and the safety still travels through all three positions and the rifle works as designed. I got a good one I guess.

keith,

My appologies to you as I re-read the article in Safari it does infact say that the bolt handle was lifted not in particular that the safety was in the middle position. But it is vague. That'll teach me to quote anything I read in a magazine. (Once again.)

Also thank you for the information on the this disturbing possibility on the model 70..

I have been shooting a double for some time now on DG. I think I'll stick with it.

best regards.

Greg Allyn

Hey Keith,

Thank you and your wife for sharing this difficult time with the rest of us. I have learned some things that may save my ass some day, and I may not even realize it because something bad didn't happen.

Take care,

lawndart

Keith,

Thanks for explaining what occured.

Is your rifle a "stock" M70 by the way?

I did get to talk to Niki in Reno, sorry you were too busy for a chat.

jim

The M70 Classic safety that I worked on was very course inside. The drilled detents are crude, the spring is too strong and in general it's a crude thing.

If there were a detent on the full safe position then the spring would not have to be so heavy and everything would go easier.

This may not be the reason that the subject safety jammed but it may have been at least part of it.

This slicking, spring changing and detent addition is not all that easy to do. Also one has to find a smith who agrees to do it!

Keith,
Thank you for sharing this with us. We are thankful that Niki has (or is) recovering and the outcome was not worse. This is not something to beat yourself over, sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Although I have never had a problem with a model 70, and properly installed I would not expect to..I don't hunt dangerous game with Mod 70s..I prefer the Mauser, but some of mine have 3 pos. saftys albiet they are properly installed...I still love the old Mauser battle rifle safty, its still the best...

But all this in gibberish, bad things happen with dangerous game, been there and my heart and prayers went out for Nicki...Also for Johan Calitz who took a tough one several years ago and he had a double rifle but fate took a hand and you cannot get around that. He has probably shot more elephant and buffalo than most Africans..Bottom line is fate is there and all the BS in the world isn't going to help when the time comes....Hope you get lucky...

PH Hallamore has been around for a long time, but he is only human, and they did kill the bull before it killed Nicki, don't you think they should get some consideration for that, when you get down to the nitty gritty, thats all that counted anyway...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
...and they did kill the bull before it killed Nicki, don't you think they should get some consideration for that, when you get down to the nitty gritty, thats all that counted anyway...

You bet, Ray. They saved her and thats all that means anything in the end. And anyone that's got the sack to kick an enraged buff in the gut to lure it off his wife and then pop it between the lookers gets my instant respect too.

Cheers,
Canuck

Great post Mr. Atcheson and I also came to the wrong conclusion based on what I initially read, and attributed the mishap to "operator error." (that the safety was in the middle position where it was in actuality like you say, all the way back)

Your post lends even more credibility to what some here continue to expound in that no rifle is totally 100 per cent reliable 100 per cent of the time ALL should be checked by a competent gunsmith to preclude such situations. My best wishes to you and for your wife's speedy recovery. jorge

PS: Incidentally, My uncle, Dr. Oscar Rojo out of Big Horn, Wyoming hunted Africa and other places through your outfit.

Keith: Thanks for the post. I hope Niki is well on her way to recovery.

Keith

Thanks for the comments and the explanations. It is always good to hear comments made directly rather than third party.

Thanks for the information straight from the horses mounth. I hope all is as good as can be in the recovery of Niki and yourself.

I have a couple M70's and one(375 H&H) that will be with me on my first safari in a few months. No dangerous game this trip, but someday soon. In all my shooting of my rifles, I have not encountered the problem you experienced and was unaware of the problem.. When I get home this evening, I will explore the possibility of a problem with my rifles.

Your writings above have alerted me to the problem and as you intended, I have learned from your experiences. Thanks for looking out for me and the rest of us ingorant of the problem.

Appreciate you clearing up the rifle malfunction for us. As had been stated, the real important information is that your wife, Niki, will make a good recovery and that greater harm was not incurred.

Really, a lesson for all of us, maybe mostly for me, as all my dangerous game rifles have three position safeties M70, CZ 550 conversions, Dakota, etc all have the Win three position safety. I'm going to use your description to sort through each rifle as this occurence would have been a couple surprise to me in the field. Always have been led to believe that the 3-safety was bullet proof. Points up again the value of this forum in getting the word out.

Thank you Mr. Atcheson for sharing and best wishes for your wifes full recovery.

Dak

This is a morbid reminder to us all to do the following:

1. Have your rifle gone over by a gunsmith familiar with preparing rifles to be 100% reliable for dangerous game hunting.

2. Shoot, handle and carry your rifle until intimately familiar with it, and to confirm that it will function, feed and fire in all circumstances you can imagine. Informally replicating some of the PH shooting tests you might read about can help. It is amazing how some rifles will work perfectly at the shooting range forever, but carry them through the forest and then try to get off 4 shots rapid fire and there can be something unexpected.

If the model 70 problem cannot be corrected, then double rifles and Mausers are excellent alternatives.

FYI,

I have a Dakota 76 in 375H&H and tried to duplicate Keith's malfunction. The bolt did move with the safety in the rear, "safe", position but the safety would move to "fire", UNTIL I WHACKED THE BOLT FIRMLY WITH THE HEEL THE HEEL OF MY HAND! Then the safety would bind and not move past the middle position!

Better to check your riffles!

JPK

I think the most important thing learned is make the first shot count. Put the first shot in the right place and the rest is moot.

This is exactly why you should only hunt cape buffalo with a lever-action 45-70!

Tim

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shumba:
This is exactly why you should only hunt cape buffalo with a lever-action 45-70!

Tim

Keith
Thank you for explaining what really happened. I will be checking my Mod. 70's tonight. Your post alerted me to a potential problem that I was unaware of, I'm just sorry that you and especially your wife had to pay such a high price for our education. You both have shown poise and class under difficult circumstances and have been an example of how to cope with adversity. Good luck.

TerryR

An FYI on that problem with the mod 70, I was discussing it with a gunsmith. It is not something correctable, it would require a different bolt.

The only solution is that the bolt handle must be ALL THE WAY down, if it shifts up you get problems. This was not the first incident where this design issue caused a problem.

It is just the Classics by the way, pre-64's of course don't have the problem.

Red

Sounds like 500 Grains has good advice. One more item to check off in a long list of tasks for a DG hunt.

Wish a gunsmith would have stepped up and let us know before tragedy strikes that the classic M70 rifles are not bullet proof and now even the Dakotas are suspect.

Dak

Dak

The safety plunger and spring are #'s 31 & 32.

The first thing to do is to change the spring to a lighter one and add a detent to the full safe position.

This may not be the primary reason for the subject malfunction but it will make the safety easier to use.


1 U350830290
0830A0290 910-000-021 Breech Bolt Sleeve
Fits $44.60





2 U350830330
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3 U354100460
4100A0460 910-000-144 Breech Bolt Sleeve Lock Pin
Fits $3.53





4 NONE
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Fits $3.90




Discontinued
5 U350900270
0900A0270 910-000-031 Breech Bolt Stop
Fits $13.63





5 U350900280
0900A0280 910-000-032 Breech Bolt Stop
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6 U356420980
6420A0980 910-642-010 Breech Bolt Stop Spring
Fits $3.98





7 U351850290
1850A0290 910-000-054 Ejector
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7 U351850300
1850A0300 910-000-055 Ejector
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8 U354120420
4120A0420 910-000-151 Ejector Pin
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9 NONE
U356401800 910-000-224 Ejector Spring
Fits $2.66





10 NONE
U351900780 910-000-063 Extractor
Fits $30.65




Discontinued
10 U351900790
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Fits $30.65





10 U351900890
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11 U351910020
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12 U356401670
6400A1670 910-000-220 Firing Pin Spring
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13 U356432040
6430A2040 910-643-003 Firing Pin Spring Retainer
Fits $3.98





14 U357150330
7150A0330 910-715-013 Firing Pin Spring Retainer Washer
Fits $3.98





15 U354912190
4910A2190 910-000-186 Firing Pin Stop Screw
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16 U359995460
9990A5460 910-000-264 Forearm Screw Eye, Plated
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17 U352570070
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18 U352710030
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19 U353071460
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19 U353071250
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19 U353070980
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19 NONE
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Discontinued
19 NONE
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Fits $28.35




Discontinued
20 U353150380
U343150380 910-000-129 Magazine Cover, Complete
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20 U353150410
3151A0410 910-000-130 Magazine Cover, Complete
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21 U353150510
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22 U354120390
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23 NONE
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Fits $3.90




Discontinued
24 U353150500
3150A0500 910-000-123 Magazine Cover Hinge Plate
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25 U354100480
4100A0480 910-000-146 Magazine Cover Hinge Plate Pin
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26 NONE
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Discontinued
27 U353600660
3600A0660 910-000-132 Magazine Follower
Fits $34.15





27 U353600380
3600A0380 910-360-038 Magazine Follower
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27 U353600710
3600A0710 910-000-133 Magazine Follower, Short Action
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27 U353600730
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27 U353600800
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28 U356420930
6420A0930 910-642-093 Magazine Spring
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28 U356420970
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28 U356421040
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28 NONE
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28 U356421060
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29 U354800380
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Discontinued
30 U354140130
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31 U354800390
4800A0390 910-480-006 Safety Plunger
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32 NONE
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33 U355100350
5100A0350 910-510-007 Sear
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34 U354131070
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35 U356401690
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36 U351405620
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37 U359995450
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39 U356600530
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40 U356600480
6601A0480 910-000-248 Trigger Guard, Complete, SS
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41 U354912760
910-000-411 Trigger Guard Screw, Front, Hex
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Discontinued
41 U354912710
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Fits $3.53




Discontinued
41 NONE
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Fits $3.90





42 U354912690
910-000-409 Trigger Guard Screw, Rear, Hex
Fits $3.53




Discontinued
42 U354912720
910-000-406 Trigger Guard Screw, Rear, Hex, SS
Fits $3.53




Discontinued
42 U354912270
4910A2270 910-491-227 Trigger Guard Screw, Rear, SS
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43 U354131080
4130A1080 910-000-160 Trigger Pin
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44 U356401700
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45 U354912170
4910A2170 910-491-023 Trigger Stop Screw
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46 U359995440
9990A5440 910-999-021 Trigger Stop Screw Nut
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The following factory part numbers are Not Available (N/A).

N/A #47 Barreled Action
N/A #48 Breech Bolt
N/A #49 Firing Pin
N/A #50 Recoil Pad
N/A #51 Telescopic Sight Base Plug Screw
N/A #52 Trigger

Schematics are the property of, and trademarks are registered to, the individual manufacturers, and are used with permission. Process is Patent Pending.

Mr. Atcheson:

Thanks for taking the time to make your post and passing along your information. It may well save some lives in the future.

Although we have never met, my sincere best wishes to you and your lovely wife. I'm sure both of you will be back in the hunting fields very soon.

-Bob F.

Keith - I respect your poise and character in handling of this and previous post.

Personally, the safety issue is a real problem when in a "near dangerous game" situation, such as when tracking lion or in/around a herd of elephant, and you know a/the confrontation could come at any moment but then again it may never happen. It's hard keeping your thumb on the safety and negotiating thick bush, and it is not easy to find the safety in a hurry especially with a 3-position in the rear position (noting in the bush having it in the middle is not too great either as it can easily get knocked forward/off).

I think I need to incorporate "safety management" into my dry firing exercises. Any expert advice regarding the "best practices" is most appreciated.

Keith Atcheson,

I have been working 12-14 hour days lately and haven't had much chance to check the forum. It was 24 hours before I realized what I had unleashed when I innocently asked my question on the other thread.

But your answer is EXACTLY the kind of information I hoped to solicit, not the other nonsense that took up so much space.

I said it on the other thread and I'll say it again here:

I think it took courage to write about your incident and risk the second-guessing of arm-chair experts for the sake of helping other people understand this problem.

And I do appreciate, as many others here do too, that you have taken the time in this thread to explain the rifle's failure in detail.

The failure of a rifle in a situation like yours is a true nightmare. Like running away from a dream monster that keeps catching up on you. You are to be congratulated for keeping your cool and killing the buff.

All the best.

I checked all of my model 70's tonight. The pre 64's and the Dakota did not have enough "slop" in the bolt to cause it to hang up. My Mod 70 classic however came close. If I forced the bolt up with the safety on it started to bind. It didn't bind to the extent that it jammed, a solid push moved it through the point where it caught into the fire position, but if it had just a little more play it could have jammed.
I don't know that I would have been able to figure it out in the instant that you did and put the gun in battery. Keith - You did good!

TerryR

quote:

An FYI on that problem with the mod 70, I was discussing it with a gunsmith. It is not something correctable, it would require a different bolt.

Daga Red, I respectfully disagree. I have a Model 70 classic built from the ground up by Bill Leeper of Elko B.C. The action as supplied came with an awful lot of excessive bolt "slop" when in battery, with the safety applied. Bill corrected the problem without making things to "tight", and now the slop is acceptable and removing the safety from the rear position with the bolt raised to its maximum is easily accomplished.

Chuck

Here is what Bill does.

"The cure is to weld up the notch in the rear of the bolt body and recut it to be a better fit on the plunger. Sometimes there is too much clearance between the bolt sleeve and the receiver and the bottom of the bolt sleeve can be welded up and recut to reduce this clearance."

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Here is what Bill does.

"The cure is to weld up the notch in the rear of the bolt body and recut it to be a better fit on the plunger. Sometimes there is too much clearance between the bolt sleeve and the receiver and the bottom of the bolt sleeve can be welded up and recut to reduce this clearance."

Chuck

This is priceless information. Thank you.

This has to be one of the "best" threads going on the net. Safety issues are always of greatest benefit to those that listen and take heed.
Mr Atcheson and his wife have been very candid with this unfortunate incident in their live and I must believe that this exposure of a potential problem will prevent another "mishap"- perhaps for someone reading here tonight.
I have solved my problems with wing safeties of either two stage or three have been the reason I have always favored the tang or thumb safety of the Older Rugers, some Brownings even the Mark 10's. They just don't get in the way. And yes I know they can break and the little spring can fail and other things can happen. But then again all equipment we create has that same potential.
Thank you for your information Mr. Atcheson and I wish your wife a complete recovery.
Frank

Keith,

First of all I am glad to see that your wife is making a good recovery after her ordeal. And thank God the situation did not end in a worse state.

Second, thank you for telling us your side of the story. There is nothing like hearing it from those who have been involved in any sort of mishap, to clear all the rumors that tend to fly around after such an incident.

And lastly, I think this could have happened to any of us - regardless of what rifle we might be using, or how much experience one has had with dangerous game.

There comes a time when all the precautions one takes seem to go wrong. We just have to accept that this sort of thing might happen to us. We just pray that it does not happen.

Let us hope that you and your wife had your last "close encounter" with mbogo, and that both of you enjoy many happy and safe hunts.

Chuck,

Bill is right that it is that notch in the bolt body that is the culprit, it is good to know that he has found a way to correct it. It was explained to me why it causes the problem but as I don't have the best memory to start with and was trying to take in a lot at once I lost the details of it.

Didn't you post some pics of your rifle at one point and bill's full explanation of the work done? I thought I had saved something like that somewhere. hm mm... would be nice to see again, on a different thread of course.

Red

I simply don't entrust my life and my hunting investment to stock factory rifles, and any money you save by NOT having such work done is money very poorly saved. It can be literally a matter of your money or your life, so take your pick. I've had rifle muck-ups in the face of dangerous game before, and that's caused me to become very tightly focused on this aspect of rifle mechanics, and a little hard-edged. To me, ALL factory rifles need to be reworked by a true expert (not a crossroads wannabe) until they function perfectly 100% of the time.

Chuck's Bill Leeper custom rifle is a prime example of a "gun done right", where no aspect of function is overlooked. That's the sort of gunmaker who deserves the business..........

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