Gents,

Hopefully this hasn't all been covered here before (meaning I just re-invented the wheel and typed this long message unnecessarily).

Was just playing around with some 370gr .416 NF Cups this weekend and it finally came to my attention that there is more than 1 (at least more than 2) sets of published dimensions for the 416 Taylor.

I realized this when Mike Brady brought to my attention that I should have 1 calibre of "lands" (aka driving bands) in contact with the neck of the case, and that with the 416T this could be difficult due to the limited case capacity and usual need for 100%+ powder charges.

So using my trusty "Any Shot You Want" reference guide, I look up the 416 Taylor and see they show a .415 neck. Cool. Just gotta make sure the lands are flush with the bottom of the neck, right? But all is not as rosy as it seems. I check out the neck on a fired case and its only about .340"! Huh? So I check the length from case head to shoulder....the dial caliper says 2.120"...but the book says its 2.050"??????????? So I check a pre-formed case from Quality Cartridge...its also 2.120"!!

So, I look at BW's site..."The 416 Taylor Page"...same diagram as "Any Shot You Want".

So I dredge up an article by John Wooters...voila!!!!!....his cartridge dimensions match my measurements!!!

Then I look up an old Bob Hagel article on the 416-338.... ... different dimensions altogether!!

So I sign up for www.ammoguide.com . They show the following....click here

A second verification of my own measurements.

Anyhoo, it appears to me the John Wooters and Ammoguide dimensions are the SAMMI standard (maybe...at least the standard that RCBS and Quality Cartridge are using anyway) and match both my dies and my fired cases. I only have a 0.345" neck (nominal...actually 0.335" after trimming), so I won't be getting a calibre of contact with the lands on a NF CPS bullet no matter how I slice it. We'll see how they shoot anyways.

Just thought I'd pass this on to save anyone else the grief of looking it all up, should any users of "Any Shot You Want" that own a 416 Taylor ever notice that their case neck is shorter than they thought (and the shoulder is in a different spot and a different angle).

What's really bizarre is that A-Square was supposedly the one that standardized the cartridge?????? (WTF, over)

BW...you might want to check your case dimensions vs. the cartridge drawing you have on your webpage.

Cheers,
Canuck

Thanks Boom.

The top one matches A2's manual and does not match my rifle, dies or Qual Cart ammo.

The middle one matches.

The bottom one is a scan of the diagram from the 1975ish article by John Wooters (or from the same source as the articles), and is also correct.

I wonder if anyone knows the story behind this discrepancy?? Would be interesting to know A2's take on it, since they "standardized" it.

Cheers,
Canuck

Here are the dimensions from the Bob Hagel article, also from Steve's Pages...



He refer's to it as the 416-338, but both he and John Wooter's refer to it as the same as the 416 Chatfield-Taylor (not just similar).

Cheers,
Canuck

Hey Canuck, what action is your 416 Taylor built on? I have a couple of very clean rifles built on Mauser 98 actions, and have been thinking about building a 416 Taylor. Which of the tree pictures matches your cartridge, and dies,what dies do you have, and were the dies specially cut, or standard?

I have a 98actioned rifle with a really dense piece of wood, that is barreled for 30-06 right now, and I'd like to re-barrel it, open the bolt face, and re-shape the over size wood to safari style, and chamber for 416 Taylor.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Hey Canuck, what action is your 416 Taylor built on?

A Browning BBR

mac...collect all three a.r.'s!

My cases formed from 458 WM brass are 2.492" long and the neck is 0.334".

Except for the fact that yours is apparently too short to crimp in one of the NF grooves, I don't see the problem as crimping isn't really necessary.

By the time I stuff all that powder in there I can't crimp even with Speer AGS bullets. But who cares? The bullets aren't going anywhere even under that heavish recoil.

quote:

My cases formed from 458 WM brass are 2.492" long and the neck is 0.334".

Will...I already knew that.

I can quite easily crimp it into one of the grooves as it is. The only problem in my situation is that the NF CPS's don't have "lands" or driving bands all the way to the base of the bullet. There is a gap between the bottom of the lands and the base of the bullet that is "sub calibre". You have to be careful to make sure that you get as much "land to neck" contact as you can get to keep the bullet aligned properly...preferably at least a calibre of contact.

With the short neck I won't be able to do that. Its actually a blessing that seating the bullet any deeper won't improve the neck tension and alignment, because that takes up to much valuable case capacity.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Which of the tree pictures matches your cartridge, and dies,what dies do you have, and were the dies specially cut, or standard?

Hi Mac,

As .366T mentioned, mine is built on a Browning BBR (I know, I know).

Here is what I think are the "standard" dimensions...



This matches my chamber (based on fired cases), and matches my dies (based on .458 WM cases full length sized in them). It also matches Quality Cartridge's empty brass.

This diagram is OK too....someone just added a COAL with a 400gr Hornady RN .....



My dies are standard RCBS. You can buy them from Midway....not a custom order. They're pretty cheap too....I think I paid $60 US.

I'd say a 416T would look pretty good in one of your M98s. I love it. I call it my "Little Big Bore". Its got a bit of pop, as a few Ele's Will knows can attest (from beyond the grave of course).

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,
Thanks for this revelation. Thanks to Boomer for the facile illustration too.

I never paid any attention to this issue before.

It seems that Bob Hagel and or Art were working with a straight neck-up of the .338 Winchester Magnum, or sort of a .416/.338 WinMag RIPoff. 25 degree shoulder angle and 2.040" base to shoulder dimension, same as the .338 WinMag.

Your rifle must be chambered to the true .416 Taylor specs. My rifle is same as yours: standard RCBS dies and Qualcart brass and fire formed brass from my rifle matchup, as do yours.

You are right. Big mystery with this A-Square screw up. One more erratum to add to the list for _ANY SHOT YOU WANT_

Such trivia can make life interesting.

A while back I purchased the Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection by Pierre van der Walt. In the section on the .416 Taylor, Pierre writes that:

"According to the dimensions listed in the A-Square manual, the A-Square version of this cartridge has a slightly shorter body than the original version. It also has a maginally larger shoulder but that probably is a consequence of the shorter body, rather any thicker girth. The A-Square version sports a 25 [degree] shoulder, and not the 36 [degree] shoulder of the original. Clearly the A-Square version's capacity is marginally compromised, but it probably is a consequence of a deliberate move to ensure that ammunition made by it would fit into original chambers, but that handloads assembled in dies made for the original reamers would not be a fit in A-Square rifle chambers."

Canuck,

Sorry that I didn't understand your predicament. Are you sure you really need NF's for your hunt?

You put a A-Frame in the right place and the buff is dead as dead can get.

The best of luck on your hunt.

quote:

Are you sure you really need NF's for your hunt?

You put a A-Frame in the right place and the buff is dead as dead can get.

Hey Will,

Nah, I don't NEED the NFs per se. I am taking A-frames as the 416T is just serving backup duty and for use on incidental PG. BUT, since it may see use on buff, I thought I'd be prepared with a few solids. I was going to use Barnes (cuz I can usually buy them in Canada with no shipping hassles), but they are backordered. So, since I have to place an order to the states (and get them shipped to a US address, then drive down and get them!) anyway, I thought I'd give the popular NF CPS a whirl instead.

We'll see how they shoot...then I'll decide.

BTW, not sure if you spotted my tongue in cheek remark about your brass. I meant that I had already measured the once fired stuff you sent me.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
A while back I purchased the Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection by Pierre van der Walt. In the section on the .416 Taylor, Pierre writes that:

"According to the dimensions listed in the A-Square manual, the A-Square version of this cartridge has a slightly shorter body than the original version. It also has a maginally larger shoulder but that probably is a consequence of the shorter body, rather any thicker girth. The A-Square version sports a 25 [degree] shoulder, and not the 36 [degree] shoulder of the original. Clearly the A-Square version's capacity is marginally compromised, but it probably is a consequence of a deliberate move to ensure that ammunition made by it would fit into original chambers, but that handloads assembled in dies made for the original reamers would not be a fit in A-Square rifle chambers."

Thanks for the explanation Mike. Makes sense I guess, although it seems silly not to change the name to avoid confusion. They obviously forgot to mention to everyone else (Quality Cartridge and RCBS at least) that the new standardized version has changed! You'd also think they'd mention something to this effect in their manual to avoid people buying one of their rifles and an incorrect set of dies.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

BTW, not sure if you spotted my tongue in cheek remark about your brass. I meant that I had already measured the once fired stuff you sent me.

Yea, I recognized that! I'm not that dense yet, but getting there fast.

Just checkin'. Mostly wanted to make sure you hadn't misread the tone of my comments.

Cheers,
Canuck

btt

Aw RIP, you're taking the challenge out of it. Maybe we need to get up a data base of who does what to whatever Dimensions. I have a diagram from Lee I will put up, just as soon as I find it.
Steve

I have put some dimensions up on this thread which looks set to take up where this one left off.
416 Taylor dimensions
Steve

Some more weirdness. I am planning to experiment with my .458 Win mag by using a 45 sabot and a .416 400g bullet at 2400 fps as the end game. To get there I will start with a .312 lead 315g at minimum charge and work up.

This screwy idea may or may not work, but I remember Remington putting out a saboted 3006 with a smaller bullet for the youngsters at one time. Reduced recoil and all that. So......I know it's possible somehow.

What will you use for the sabot ?? Sounds interesting. If a guy could get all kinds of sabots. The 458 Win Mag would be the ultimate all around rifle. Especially is sabots could be got for shooting 6.5 and 338 bullets.
Yeee haaawww. Wouldn't that be something. Or even 375. . at least with the 375 or 416 the standard 14" twist would stabilize the normal range of bullets. A 250 gr Barnes 375 caliber TTSX should go screaming along at 2900 fps or so from the average 458 . As long as it was accurate .

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
What will you use for the sabot ?? Sounds interesting. If a guy could get all kinds of sabots. The 458 Win Mag would be the ultimate all around rifle. Especially is sabots could be got for shooting 6.5 and 338 bullets.
Yeee haaawww. Wouldn't that be something. Or even 375. . at least with the 375 or 416 the standard 14" twist would stabilize the normal range of bullets. A 250 gr Barnes 375 caliber TTSX should go screaming along at 2900 fps or so from the average 458 . As long as it was accurate .

There was poster here that went by Sabot he was working very hard at developing all kinds of sabots for all kinds of calibers.

He was very afraid of the ATF and dropped off the board.

He had very good and interesting results.

I tried to get him to produce them for sale he was very afraid of the ATF even through sabots are not regulated by any one.

He dropped of the board it was a shame as he had a great ideas on sabots.

I am sure one could find is old posts here if one looked.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Sperry Sr:
Some more weirdness. I am planning to experiment with my .458 Win mag by using a 45 sabot and a .416 400g bullet at 2400 fps as the end game. To get there I will start with a .312 lead 315g at minimum charge and work up.

This screwy idea may or may not work, but I remember Remington putting out a saboted 3006 with a smaller bullet for the youngsters at one time. Reduced recoil and all that. So......I know it's possible somehow.

I been meaning to use a bunch of 45 cal sabots to shoot 357 dia bullets in my 45-70s but just haven't got around to doing it.

If you find a source for them. Please let us know !

45 caliber muzzle loading sabots are easy find.

but they are set up for 357 dia bullets

I spose that would work with 358 Norma Magnum boolits or bullets. And should still be stabilized by the 14" twist. Like the 225 gr TSX.

I never tried 358 dia. bullets to see if they would fit the sabots.

I used to use 158gr 357 dia. bullets in a home made 45 caliber mussel loader.

I did load some 225s for my brothers 358 win.

I still might have some around and if I do I'll check and see how they fit.

Great ! Thanks. If it proves to be akrit it would be sweet for bou and deer hunting where they hang up at 400 yards or so. Which they sometimes they do. Smaller than that, a guy would have to load light bullets to keep them stabilized which takes away from the long range utility.

The only problem is muzzle loader sabots are fairly soft plastic.

I would think that at higher velocities they would strip out.

Ya , that could be problematic. The old Remington Accelerators worked. In some rifles they weren't very good . but some rifles liked them.
It should be interesting.

I would love to find sabots in various calibers that would take higher velocities.

Poster Sabot was doing some very fine work when he dropped out.

Lots of good information in his posts

I'm thinking that if I can get a 225 gr 358 TSX to be accurate at 300 yards. Then check it at 4+500 . even if all I can get is 2500 fps with 3/4moa . that will work fine on bou. Faster would be fun , but , it's not mandatory for my needs.

quote:

even if all I can get is 2500 fps with 3/4moa . that will work fine on bou.

Heck I settle for 2 inches with a sabot round with a wildly different bullet dia. That is dead critters out to 300 yards easily.

Any thing under that would be a great bonus.

I would like it 500 yard akrit. Even if it only holds 1 moa to 500. That's sufficient.

quote:

I would like it 500 yard akrit. Even if it only holds 1 moa to 500. That's sufficient.

And I want a magic pony also.

Sorry I just couldn't resist. hope no offense well be taken

None at all.

A long time ago

I got a left hand ruger 300 win mag and sent it to a good gun man

had him make me a 416 taylor african style

flip up sights hood up front band on the barrel

quick see scope quick on off

hand rubbed the stock with linseed oil

loaded up the ammo all by hand

came in at 9 plus pounds

anyone that don't love a 416 taylor

ain't got a soul

And James Watts invented it.
Originally called the .416 Watts Short.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

I don't recall the specs and can't find them in my shop, but I built a number of 375 and 416 Taylors, but they were nothing more than a .338 case necked up to .416, end of story..The shot well and came very close to 416 Rem and 375 H&H specs..Maybe overthinking the subject, ya think?? I also ordered a plug with my custom dies to open up the necks in one stroke to match the dies and chamber,

Have not built a Chatfield Taylor since Ruger came out with the 375 Ruger and the 416 Ruger, but about any conversion based on the .338 case is a well designed caliber. At one time the 30-338 was extremely popular among Idaho elk hunters.