Hi

Have been asked to help a mate and build up a .416 Taylor for him. looks like a good round and am about to order a chambering reamer. however, the reamers from Pacific Tool and JGS have considerable differences... Rip, Will, anybody else. Any idea if there is a "standard" or who to contact to find out which etc.

Just eyballing the specs the Pacific has a much longer lead and throat which I think would be better for the .416... The pacific variant has a longer neck .375 against .353 for the JGS one etc.

Wish I could help you but my three 416 Taylors were all chambered by Douglas Barrels. Haven't had any issues feeding or pressure wise, or the bullets sticking way out!, but I'm in the dark as to what they chambered them with.

I'm sure if you e-mail Douglas they will tell you what they use.

P.S.

I'm biased but the Taylor is THE all-around cartridge. It just simply rules!

Ganyana,
We have sorted this out here before.
I will dig it out and post here if "sumbuddy who know" does not beat me to the explanation.
IIRC, there were two common versions, one more proper than the other (neck length, shoulder angle).
I am pretty busy at work and posting here on the fly.
I gave my reamer to a gunsmith.

I will post the definitive answer about the "2 versions" whenever I can dig it out. My feeble little mind cannot keep it all straight in my head.

Canuck ran this subject for us a while back.
The version A-Square was wanting to get SAAMI-ed was not the original "correct" version of Chatfield-Taylor.

I suspect this is what RIP is refering to 416 Taylor Dims The A-squared one is basically a 338 Win mag necked up with a 2.04 base to shoulder length. The Standard one has a 2.12 shoulder length BUT there are still a heap of minor differences in shoulder widths & angles. I've been doing a bit of looking cause I want to make sure the reamer I get will match the dies I get, hopefully without going to the hassle & expense of having to have custom dies made.
Steve

Shinzo,
That thread covers it. Thanks. Amazing what a little search function can do.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Hi

Have been asked to help a mate and build up a .416 Taylor for him. looks like a good round and am about to order a chambering reamer. however, the reamers from Pacific Tool and JGS have considerable differences... Rip, Will, anybody else. Any idea if there is a "standard" or who to contact to find out which etc.

Just eyballing the specs the Pacific has a much longer lead and throat which I think would be better for the .416... The pacific variant has a longer neck .375 against .353 for the JGS one etc.

Ganyana, I'd be finding out what dies he wants to use first and asking the manufacture of the dies.

There will be a real problem if you order the correct reamer and can't order the matching relaoding dies

It really doesn't matter for reloading, what is very important is the reamer and reloading dies match

regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Shinzo,
That thread covers it. Thanks. Amazing what a little search function can do.

I just went & looked for it on Ammoguide as thats where I first found it. As my Mum used to say, its all about knowing where to look, that was usually just after she'd finished tell me that whatever I was looking for was "just where I'd had it last" My kids hate me when I do that to them.
Steve

God must be looking after unknowing dummies like me. I form brass from 458 WM cases in the cheapie Lee 416 Taylor die and they work fine in the Douglas Barrels chambers.

If you use the "standard" dies (Lee, etc.) and find out what Douglas uses for a reamer, you're done.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
God must be looking after unknowing dummies like me. I form brass from 458 WM cases in the cheapie Lee 416 Taylor die and they work fine in the Douglas Barrels chambers.

If you use the "standard" dies (Lee, etc.) and find out what Douglas uses for a reamer, you're done.

Will

I'm pretty sure the cheap Lee 416 Taylor dies are spot on, but........

When I had my 416 Taylor done the first time the gunsmith cut the chamber with a 338 reamer and necked in 416, this sets the shoulder back about 60 thou from original lee specs

If you use 458 brass and run it into the dies and try and chamber a round into your 416 - 338 you won't be able to close the bolt

If you use 338 Brass in a 416 - 338 chamber it will work for about 2 reloads until the brass grows longer at the shoulder, the dies don't actually resize the shoulder, then it becomes hard to close the bolt

I had to send my 416 Taylor back to get the gunsmith to recut the chamber to original specs

regards
S&F

FWIW, I spoke to Tim at Douglas and he says they use Pacific Tool and Die reamers.

hth

Thanks Guys. Have mailed RCBS to see what dimentions they use!

Since I have all you 416 Taylor guys in the same place I have a bullet question. I want a 400 gr bullet that will seat to magazine length constraints (3.30). So far the shortest 400 gr I have located is the Hornady RNose interlock at 1.333. May drop down to the Swift 350 gr which goes to 1.26" but as a last resort. I know the Barnes monometals are like 1.60 so they are way out of the question. Do any of you know a good DG bullet that will be around 1.35 or shorter that goes 400 gr?

Don't want to highjack this thread just seeking help from the experts.

Soft or solid? In solids you have a choice of Northfork 370grn mono's, Norma 375grn mono's, woodleigh 400grn fmj's or some left over Speer AGS (best choice). In softs... Woodleigh 400grn or swift 350grn.

Ganyana, actully good mind reading. Looking for both soft and solid so you have helped tremendously. Thanks.

The following is the Lee 416 Taylor Dimensions as supplied by Lee, Lee dies are very cost effective especially if your exchange rate to the $US is lousy ,they also have a built in neck expander so are doubly effective.


It appears to be as close as any I've seen to std dimensions other than a degree or so of shoulder angle, not likely to be too critical on a shoulder this small. As I see it the critical dimensions for a 416 Taylor std chamber are, base to shoulder 2.12",
neck length .345",
shoulder diameter .489"
shoulder angle 35 degrees approx.
This next is supposedly the chamber that A2d have Saami'd


It is shorter in the base to shoulder dimension & shallower in shoulder angle, basically a 416-338 Win Mag.
By way of illustration, this last is a chamber drawing from ??? reamer manufacturers website (note to self, put proper captions on saved images ) It appears to agree pretty much to the standard & is very similar to the Lee other than a degree or so of shoulder angle .Anyone know whose it is?


There are other drawings in the thread linked to above & also now on the Bigbores page again. Easy to see the dilemma in matching dies to chambers/reamers.
Could I ask that anyone else who has any die or reamer makers data post it on here too please. Thanks.
Steve

Shinzo,
You have it well described.
2.500" case, 2.120" base to shoulder, and .345" neck length.

The shoulder is hovering around 35 degrees semi-angle from various "estimations."

Trim to 2.490" and neck length will still be .335", 80.5% of caliber and better than many cartridges.

It is THE ONE.

I have an old reamer print somewhere and the mid 1990's RCBS dies I had worked fine with that rifle, seemed to match the chamber.
I do not know if the a-squaring-SAAMI-ing has influenced them since then.

I will dig out the reamer print and some die-formed new brass and fireformed brass (from .458WinMag) and the Quality Cartridge proper headstamped new brass and compare them all ... tomorrow.

RIP,

That would be much appreciated.

Shinzo,

Thanks for all the helpful info.

Here is a 416 Taylor chamber reamer, reloading die set, and brass combo that works:

Left to right:
1) .458WinMag Remington (R-P) brass simply sized in the FL sizing die, not fireformed.
2) .416 Taylor Quality Cartridge brass, not fireformed.
3) Fireformed R-P brass





I have checked the case capacity of both the QualCart and R-P brass after fireforming and it is identical. I suspect Qualcart used R-P basic brass to properly headstamp.

The drawing of the JGS reamer that worked for me, is obscurely datum-lined, had to do some arithmetic to interpret:

Shoulder angle is 30 degrees.
Bolt face/base to shoulder = 0.2200" + 1.8966" = 2.116"
Neck length (of chamber) = 2.3050" - 1.9345" = 0.3705"
Bolt face/base to case mouth = 0.2200" + 2.3050" = 2.5250"

Remember that a minimum chamber spec is different from maximum brass spec.





The Clymer reamer:



Some cartridge/brass specs.

My fireformed brass is 2.495" long.
Neck seems to be about 0.340" after sharpening with fireforming.








Notice that the JGS reamer is dated 1-4-71 and the designer is RF Chatfield-Taylor.
Initial approval date on the reamer is 03/06/85, by "JC." Amen.
Revision A, "Neck Thicker" is attributed to "KF," dated 2/87.

"KF" could be Keith Francis, of Talent, Oregon whom Pierre van der Walt's research says made the reamers for Robert F. Chatfield Taylor. JGS is in Coos Bay, Oregon.

I don't know if this helps or causes more confusion.
Maybe the JGS reamer is as close as can be had to the original .416 Taylor, though it may have had the neck enlarged for functional reasons.

It works great with RCBS dies.
Quality Cartridge .416 Taylor (with proper headstamp) and R-P .458WinMag brass give identical ballistics.
Winchester .458WinMag brass had slightly greater capacity.

All of this is even more arcane with the advent of the .416 Ruger.
That's cool.

RTP,

Thanks so much for your efforts.

For me, the not-knowing-any-better person, sizing the Taylor from 458 WM brass works so off I merrily go.

Indeed the 416 Ruger will probably impact the numbers of 416 Taylor that pop up. I find it somewhat surprising that there is/was enough demand that Quality Cartridge starting making cases.

The big-bore crowd though is a fickle bunch. In a slightly longer action there isn't a much better round than the 416 Rem. A whole lot of PH's use them. They are relatively skinny and feed like a charm. But somehow it has been shoved to a back corner. Everyone is always in the search of the magic bullet I guess.

I suspect that the 416 Taylor rifles will still be made though probably not as many now that the Ruger has shown up. Any new cartridge has an initial surge in popularity but them tials off. We'll see what happens with the Ruger.

In a small percentage of magazines the Taylor will still be better capacity-wise because of the skinnier case but of course that comes at the price of smaller case powder capacity. When push comes to shove!, the Taylor will also be easier to feed.

Unless some other rifle manufacturer picks up the 416 Ruger it will be limited. I don't know of anyone else that is making a 375 Ruger, do you?

Anyway, I've got too many damn guns already.

Good post RIP, well done, coupla points, the Qual-Cart brass looks as though it has the shorter shoulder of the A2d version, I guess at least this will fireform to a larger chamber. For ???? reason, most chamber drawings seem to show a 30deg shoulder but most cartridge drawings a 35ish degree shoulder. The following are a couple more reamer drawings, first from Dave Manson at Loon Lake who posts on here, hope you don't mind me putting it up Dave.


And a virtually identical one from Pacific Tool & Gauge.


As far as I can make these out, they will both accomodate an "old"standard cartridge as well as the a2d version. A cartridge reloaded in the Lee dies would be OK other than a few degrees at the shoulder which would lead to a bit of working at the neck/shoulder junction, possibly not too much of a bother with such a short shoulder. I'm off to track down some more die manufacturers specs now, I reckon we've just about got reamers covered. Anyone know whose reamers Pacnor barrels use for their prechambered barrels?
Steve

Shinzo,
Good show Man! You been holding out!
Thanks for those reamer drawings. My .416 Taylor reamer came before I even knew who the "Two Daves" were. Thanks. I shall study these new (for me) drawings.

Below are two dummies:
Qual-Cart .416 Taylor on the left: not fireformed.
A Federal .338 WinMag necked up to .375 on the right.

This makes it look like Qual-Cart is using the proper .416 Taylor base to shoulder height: 2.120"



I think the Qual-Cart brass does not have the shorter shoulder location.
Optical illusion may be involved in the other picture (reflections on the brass from the adjacent cases in flash lighting, and lens distortion of my cheap camera with automatic settings).


We are zeroing in on the "Original." All four reamer makers use a 30-degree shoulder semi-angle. All shoulder heights are 2.120" rounded to the nearest thousandth of an inch.

I cannot explain what is so hard about getting a consistent shoulder angle on the brass drawings from various sources that sometimes say "approximate" beside the stated shoulder angle.

30-degree shoulder should be it on both chamber and brass ... in the best of all possible worlds.

From the reamer drawings, it looks like Dave Kiff trained at JGS, and Dave Manson trained at Clymer before starting their own businesses.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I cannot explain what is so hard about getting a consistent shoulder angle on the brass drawings from various sources that sometimes say "approximate" beside the stated shoulder angle.

30-degree shoulder should be it on both chamber and brass ... in the best of all possible worlds.

RIP,
It's a wildcat ... can't have a 'standardised wildcat'. I asked Manson for a 350 G&H magnum reamer drawing, he sent an email with 3 attachments and a "Which would you like?" note.

Personally, I wonder whether the original articles announcing the 416Taylor and 416/338WM where so close together that a level of confusion and bastardisation has occured. It's the same thing here with the 303/25 ... near infinite amount of variations (depending on teh 'smith cutting the chamber) all called the same damn thing.
Cheers...
Con

Con,
True. This story ain't Voltaire's Candide.

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
It's a wildcat ... can't have a 'standardised wildcat'.

Fair point Con, its my way of referring to 416 Taylors pre the Saami'ing of the beast by A2d. Its becoming very obvious that there is no standardisation at all, so now my quest is to find a pair of compatible reamer & dies or it might be easier to ask someone like Dave Manson how much extra it would cost to alter the shoulder angle on a reamer to match with a die set, I'm still keen to get some dimensions from the like of RCBS, Hornady, CH & Redding.
RIP, how big is the shoulder diameter of your fireformed case?
Steve

Can anyone post dimensional drawings of the .416 Ruger - how long is its neck?

Shinzo,
All of my fireformed brass is exactly 0.489" at the shoulder. That is to the best of my ability to measure exactly to nearest thousandth of an inch.

akriet,
I was the bozo who posted the cartridge drawing of the .375 Ruger here, before Hornady wanted it let out, and they kindly asked me to remove it.

We will get the dimensions when Hornady wants them released. "Sumbuddy who know" will post it "soon."

I am guessing it will be a simple, straight neck-up of the .375 Ruger.
Easy to figure if that is the case.

There will be no confusion over the .416 Ruger.
I predict that all reamers, dies and brass will match from the get-go.

Will the barrel of the .416 Ruger African and Alaskan Hawkeyes be one step up in contour number over the .375 Ruger?

Dang, another Ruger (or two) to add to my Ruger collection!

Funny how they just skipped right over the .395 Ruger Max and went right to the .416 Ruger.

I use the Lee Dies and Quality Cartridge brass. After fireforming and one resize in the Lee dies it is perfect. Shoots 1" groups with the 400gr Partition. I will ask my smith which reamer he ended up using. I absolutely love the cartridge. Normal load (Wooters load) with IMR4320 gets 2350fps with no sign of pressure. Brass life is good as well. After 5 reloads the cases still don't need to be trimed. reflex264

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Shinzo,
All of my fireformed brass is exactly 0.489" at the shoulder. That is to the best of my ability to measure exactly to nearest thousandth of an inch.

Rip, thanks for that, theres a plan forming (I think)

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Funny how they just skipped right over the .395 Ruger Max and went right to the .416 Ruger.

Oooohh! That was cruel!!!
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by reflex264:
I use the Lee Dies and Quality Cartridge brass. After fireforming and one resize in the Lee dies it is perfect. Shoots 1" groups with the 400gr Partition. I will ask my smith which reamer he ended up using. I absolutely love the cartridge. Normal load (Wooters load) with IMR4320 gets 2350fps with no sign of pressure. Brass life is good as well. After 5 reloads the cases still don't need to be trimed. reflex264

Yes Please, thats just the sort of info this thread needs.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Shinzo:
Fair point Con, its my way of referring to 416 Taylors pre the Saami'ing of the beast by A2d. Steve

Steve,
I dont believe A2 got it SAAMI spec'd. Its still very much a wildcat.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
Steve
I dont believe A2 got it SAAMI spec'd. Its still very much a wildcat.
Cheers...
Con

Well thats good news anyway, I was only going by what was said (as I remember it) in the earlier thread referred to above, but at least that means it not too late for someone to do it right, not the crappy version the A2d tried to legitimise then. I wish.
Steve

Steve,
A2's variant was a reasonable compromise at getting cases that would fit safely into the numerous variations that exist out there, including 416/338 chambers. I'm still of the belief that the close releases of the 416Taylor and 416/338WM articles clouded the issue in the minds of many as to what a 416Taylor truely was. Many will still tell you it's a 416 on a 338WM case when this is blatently incorrect. Bob Hagel in his article on the 416/338WM wrote: "Apparently at about the same time that Taylor was visualizing the 416/338, others were toying with the same idea." The association between Taylor and the 338WM case is obviously stated.
Funny thing is ... what if the 338WM wasn't on Taylor's mind at all, but rather the 300WM? What if bumping a shoulder back a touch was the aim to establish a good positive headspace on the shoulder rather than relying on the belt which can vary between manufacturers? Maybe that's the reason for the longer than 338WM base to shoulder dimensions? It's often been stated for example that the 300WM case is better for forming to 358Norma than the 338WM because less brass stretching occurs on that first fireforming shot ... its not incomprehensible that Taylor was thinking the same thing.
Why the mystery surrounding the Taylor's true dimensions? Perhaps there was a sniff of a semi-proprietry round and hence Taylor wished to maintain a level of secrecy surounding its true dimensions? Similiar thing happened with the 400Whelen. Go back to S&F's post and ask him how he felt about the so called "416Taylor" when he first received his rifle back to find "416Taylor" headstamped brass wouldn't chamber. The secrecy/difficulty in establishing the original's dimensions may have very well been deliberate. Just some of my random thoughts. Ultimatley however, it's a brilliant little cartridge and one I simply must try at some stage!
Cheers...
Con

Wildcat skullduggery, ja.
Bob Chatfield-Taylor (watch out for those guys with hyphenated names) was squirreling around with the concept for a couple of years and finally got Winchester to make him a factory rifle engraved "Winchester M70-.416 Taylor" in early 1973. I think they made two, another for their testing?
No deal came through.
Ruger also made two M77 rifles in .416 Taylor sometime after that.

Bob Hagel and friend were testing their .416/.338 WinMag about the same time, early 70's. Their load data is found in the Wolfe Pub Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges.

Ken Waters acquired one of those Ruger M77 .416 Taylor rifles for his load development in Pet Loads.
Ken Waters says the original .416 Taylor dies were made by Fred Huntington of RCBS for Mr. Chatfield-Taylor:

"... I wrote to inquire as to whether I too could be furnished with a set? Yes, they'd made them for Bob using Keith Francis' expertly ground reamers -- but no, they couldn't make dies for me because the reamers belonged to the cartridge's originator."
Times have changed. RCBS sold some to me and they were very proud of those dies, considering the price they charged, back in the late 1990's, more than 20 years after the skullduggery.

I use RL-15.
75 grains of RL-15 with the 400-grain Hornady RNSP
(in either Qual-Cart properly headstamped brass or R-P .458WinMag brass primed with F215)
gave 2418 fps average MV and good accuracy,
from my Shilen stainless 1:14" No.5 sporter contour barrel that is 26" long.

No pressure signs at all, as you will see from the appearance of the primer of the fireformed case I posted above. They all look like that with my brass and rifle.
That rifle is a matte-stainless Ruger M77 MarkII with aftermarket trigger, and will never be rechambered to .416 Ruger.

If I did another .416 Taylor, I might choose a 1:12" twist.
Afterall, George Hoffman said he would go with a 1:12" if he built another .416 Hoffman, so you know he is now carrying a 1:12" in The Happy Hunting Ground.

And that brings us to the real importance of the .416 Taylor and the .416 Hoffman.
They breathed life back into a dying caliber, and revived the .416 Rigby to mass production, and now the .416 Ruger.


R.I.P. (Really Important Persons) George and Bob, Requiescat In Pacem, Rest In Peace.

Rip (Ron in person)

Talked to my gun smith today. The reamer was a Manson. WIth the Lee dies the set up works perfectly and my brass isn't growing very fast like I have heard some Taylors do. Hope this helps. reflex264

Is it normal in this 416 Taylor to have a "jump" of say .450. For instance using a 400 gr Woodleigh rn sp my max oal is 3.30 and to lands is 3.750 per my Sinclair measurements?

Seems a long way!