I am in the market for a more versatile big bore rifle.

As far as actions go I like bolt trash.

I have a mod 70 375H&H and on the other end a 600OK.

I need/want something in the middle.

Having trouble deciding.

I have been privileged to shoot many different rifles and calibers including 10.75x68, 404J, 416Rby, 416Rem, 416Taylor and 416Wby, 45-70(with loads in Ruger #1 and #3 that would make a recoil junky cry uncle), 458(Win&Lott), 460Wby, some 470 & 475 wildcats, 550Mag and 505Gibbs.

I am leaning towards the 404J or one of the 416s.

Your thoughts and or suggestions please.

Andy

I had a customer ask this same basic question a few years back. His primary rifle was a 375 H&H, and the back up to that was a .416 Rem. By the end of it we ended up pulling the .416 barrel, and turned it into a 458 Lott. The 375 and .416 were just to close together for what he was wanting, and the most practical step up we determined to be the Lott.

I think if I re did this now I'd probably stay the same, or just step up to on of the 416's to split the difference and just use a single rifle.

I think the most versatile big bore rifle is something with a .458 bore.
Since you specified a bolt rifle then either a 458 Win Mag or the 458 Lott.

Both with full power loads in the 450 to 500gr range are suitable for anything on the Planet.

They have the added advantage, and I think it is a BIG one of having a bunch of different bullets in .458 diameter suitable for lower velocities, and thus less recoil for smaller game. Giving you the oppertunity to use your 458 bore rifle on a lot of local game, deer, pigs, black bear, elk in timber, etc.

I have owned 2 different 458 Win Mag rifles, and I have used my 458 No2 double rifle to take several deer, several pigs and 3 coyotes.

These lighter bullets are also a lot cheaper than the normal full power bullets, enabling you to shoot a LOT.

Shooting 45/70 equivelent power level loads in your 458 Bolt rifle , still makes it an excellent nondangerous hunting gun, with low recoil, compared to full power loads.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I think the most versatile big bore rifle is something with a .458 bore.

They have the added advantage, and I think it is a BIG one of having a bunch of different bullets in .458 diameter suitable for lower velocities

I have an affinity for CEBs and they certainly have a HUGE selection of .458 bullets. We know from Michael's testing many have ridiculously low velocity shear points.

375 = 300 grain nominal bullet weight
600 = 900 grain nominal bullet weight
500 class rifles are about the middle ground in terms of bullet weight and diameter.
I can see a matching pair based on your 375 using the same 375 HH case like the Lott.

A .416 Rem. will do anything you need it to do;from elephant to duiker.

458 Lott.

Keith

I have owned and used a number of large african calibers. After getting my 458B&M I sold most of them, including 458Lott (2), 416Rem, and 375RUM. I did keep a Winchester Mdl 70 416Rem in SS/synthetic and a 500NE DR.

I now use CEB 450gr solids, 420gr Safari Raptors and 250gr tipped SOCOM rounds in the 458B&M and consider it a one gun safari rifle with these loads, which all shoot into the 10 ring at 50 yards. Two of my african hunting partners have also selected the 458B&M as their go to safari rifles.

I give the 458B&M my highest endorsement. Mine has taken Elephant to PG and all have been one shot kills.

I'd go .458 WM or Lott.

Well I thought the 458 Lott was already obsolete. Glad to see that some people still hunt with it and thinking about this cartridge as something valid to everything that moves on the planet. Is that I was worried as most post care of AR 500, 600 OK etc ... and my poor little 458 Lott was about an air rifle.

Ovny.

Obviously my vote for the 458 Lott .

Ovny.

I would recommend 400 H&H which has plenty of punch for most of DG but without undue recoil. You can also use lighter bullets, currently NorthFork offers 360 grain bullets. Slick feeding cartridge, technically very well thought out. If you are going the practical route, the 416 Rigby is hard to beat.

The 458 Lott allows for father range if you take those types of shots.
The 458 Win Mag would be my choice since I ALWAYS prefer to be
within recurve bow hunting distance when I fire. It's close or it's nothing
for me. The "trophy" is the experience of being able to overcome the
game animals defenses, so getting close is "everything" for me. CEB
bullets between 410 and 450 grains are all you'll need.

I'd think about either just staying with your 375 H&H or rechambering it to 375 Weatherby if you're a handloader. Aa a handloader you could load the North Fork 350g softpoints to 2550 fps or a 300g A-Frame or TSX to 2700 plus fps with relatively mild recoil. With a 350g premium bullet at 2550 you crack the 5000 ft/lb energy mark (about the same as a factory 416 Rigby) and about the same Taylor KO factor as the 404 Jeffery. The nice thing about the 375 Weatherby cartridge is you can still shoot factory 375 H&H ammunition.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
...

I have a mod 70 375H&H and on the other end a 600OK.

I need/want something in the middle.
...

I was in a similar quandary. Having a 375H&H, and 500MDM on the way. I decided on a 416B&M as the middle all around rifle that could do almost everything I want.

With the 235gr CEB Safari Raptor at 2900fps it can handle longer ranges. It can also be a backup for the 500MDM for DG later on down the line.

DrewHenry,

As you are aware, you have a wealth of options.

If you are a handloader, you can consider the 416Rigby. A handloader can load it to 416 Weatherby performance, which has more energy than the Lott yet preserves the long range of the flat 375 loads.

For price and factory loads, one could go with the 416 Ruger. For something a significant step up, the 500's await.

If I wanted to use nothing but a bolt rifle, and wanted a do-it-all pair of rifles they would be both first and foremost a CRF action, and fitted with quality iron sights, also fitted with quick-detach scope bases & rings with good scopes. Both bedded in a quality synthetic stock. The chamberings would be a 375H&H, and the other a 458 LOTT!

With those two you can effectively take anything from jack rabbit to mastodon!

Of course that is just what I would be happy with if forced to use nothing but bolt rifles! But If I were left to do as I please the 375H&H would be accompanied by a 500NE double rifle.

Others may do as it suits!

I am in fact a hand loader. I mentioned CEB because I load them in 375, 308, 600, and now 350Rem mag.

I have considered rechambering to 375WBY, but I would still just have a 375.

I Like the Lott. I like many others too. Especially some of the short 470, 475, 500, and 550 ctgs.

I would go for a 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. Why. Well the 416 is more than enough gun and is flat shooting for any plains game to 300mts with a 400grain bullet. Go to a lighter bullet and is good to 400 if you are so inclined. The 450 Rigby is not too far behind the 416 in its versatility and way out in front of the Lott for versatility.

quote:

Originally posted by Rule 303:
I would go for a 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. Why. Well the 416 is more than enough gun and is flat shooting for any plains game to 300mts with a 400grain bullet. Go to a lighter bullet and is good to 400 if you are so inclined. The 450 Rigby is not too far behind the 416 in its versatility and way out in front of the Lott for versatility.

Sounds like you appreciate the Rigby-capacity case for cartridges over 40 cal. Me, too. They feel nice in the palm of the hand, with good balance in width.

However, at 50 calibre, I find that a shortened case (2.65" AccRel, or RIP's 2.7") is enough capacity (124+ grains[AmmoGuide]) and capable of 7000+ftlb. That would be plenty for long-range eland, too, but the gun is obviously a shorter range, Dangerous Game rifle. The Jeffrey and Gibbs can do the same at low pressures, and I don't really see a need to use the Jeffrey or Gibbs capacities at 8000-9000 ftlbs.

416 rigby,404 Jeffery....

given what you have, you have the flat shooting capable 375 and the pure huge mass shorter range 600.

I would probably go 458 and the 450 rigby seams to be a great cartridge seeing as you can handle the 600. the 416 will get it done too, but the 458 cal has a lot of different bullet options to play with.

tough choice.

I am the stocking stage on two good ones:

.404 Jefferys on a VZ-24 that Colin Stolzer did

and,

.450 RUM on an Old Model 70 (22,xxx range) that Jim Kobe barreled and tarted up for me.

Neither has a belt...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am in the market for a more versatile big bore rifle.

As far as actions go I like bolt trash.

I have a mod 70 375H&H and on the other end a 600OK.
I need/want something in the middle.
Having trouble deciding.
* * *
I am leaning towards the 404J or one of the 416s.
Your thoughts and or suggestions please.

Well, given the caliber extremes you already own - a 375 at one end & the 600OK at the other - you've virtually answered your own question.

One of the 400-level cartridges is the obvious choice to play the "gap-filler" role in your big-bore lineup.

If you have somewhat eclectic tastes, like me, then it's the .404 Jeff hands-down, no debate. The .404J pitches a 400gn slug hard enough to kill any animal as fast and as sure as the other 400s - but does so with less recoil and, despite its modern critics, with a more storied history and not a little nostalgic grace.

Problem is, factory .404 ammo is sometimes difficult to find and expensive when you do, and bullet-selection for reloading is narrow and also pricey.

The more practical side of me would suggest the .458WM.

As was pointed out, there exists a much wider & less expensive range of bullets for reloading, and factory ammo is readily available.

quote:

If you are a handloader, you can consider the 416Rigby. A handloader can load it to 416 Weatherby performance, which has more energy than the Lott yet preserves the long range of the flat 375 loads.

My vote 100%


.

As far as bullet selection dictating caliber; exactly how many types and weights do you need?

404J; 400gr solids and softpoints, or just go Barnes.

jmho,

Rich

404 Jeffery

Anything between and including .375 H&H and 500 A2 or 500 Mbogo ballistics, but yes, the 404 Jeffery is the most perfect bolt action DGR cartridge ever designed,
AND IT WAS THE VERY FIRST TRULY SUCCESSFUL ONE IN 1905 !!!!

First choice-

416-- B&M, Taylor, Ruger, Rem Mag, Rigby- They are all great cartridges.

I personally chose the 416 B&M as my primary go to rifle. Also have a great 416 Rem Mag.

Second choice would be the 404 J

I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S. Unless of course there is a .423 wildcat made on the Rigby case. Couple years ago I acquired a MRC stainless PH with a Rigby bolt face. Or maybe a 450 Rigby........

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

I have a mod 70 375H&H and on the other end a 600OK.

I need/want something in the middle.

I'm tempted to say: No you don't! or: why?

There are only about 7 animals on earth that a 600ok is really "right" for(ele, CB, WB, hippo, giraffe, rhino and polar/brown bear). For everything else the 375 is more than adequate.

If you have a 416 or a 458 you are going to severely limit your 600s exercise. And that is just wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S. Unless of course there is a .423 wildcat made on the Rigby case. Couple years ago I acquired a MRC stainless PH with a Rigby bolt face. Or maybe a 450 Rigby........

If you have a Rigby bolt face and want to build, the 450 Rigby or 450 Dakota is the obvious choice. Bullet selection of .458" is much better than .423". Bascially, you will be building a control-feed (you are building a control-feed, yes?) '460 Weatherby' without a belt. A great round.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S. Unless of course there is a .423 wildcat made on the Rigby case. Couple years ago I acquired a MRC stainless PH with a Rigby bolt face. Or maybe a 450 Rigby........

There are 404 wildcats on the HH case. Matching pair to your 375HH for identical set up and muscle memory ect and can be used for back up for the other in case of Murphy.

I am no expert and I am just posting for some cerebral debate.

Versatile is not the same as "Best" or "ideal". Versatile implies a compromise across different applications but optimal - "almost ideal" or "nearly best".

Given that understanding, I cannot see a 458 cal being versatile. The 300 meter shot is not going to be realistic.

I have been told by many that the 416 Rigby is the most versatile Big Bore - the only one that I own!

I could shoot a Gemsbok at 300 meters or an elephant at 10 meters.

I quite enjoy using the 458Mag and find it quite versatile.
Running Boar;

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Rule 303:
I would go for a 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. Why. Well the 416 is more than enough gun and is flat shooting for any plains game to 300mts with a 400grain bullet. Go to a lighter bullet and is good to 400 if you are so inclined. The 450 Rigby is not too far behind the 416 in its versatility and way out in front of the Lott for versatility.

Sounds like you appreciate the Rigby-capacity case for cartridges over 40 cal. Me, too. They feel nice in the palm of the hand, with good balance in width.

However, at 50 calibre, I find that a shortened case (2.65" AccRel, or RIP's 2.7") is enough capacity (124+ grains[AmmoGuide]) and capable of 7000+ftlb. That would be plenty for long-range eland, too, but the gun is obviously a shorter range, Dangerous Game rifle. The Jeffrey and Gibbs can do the same at low pressures, and I don't really see a need to use the Jeffrey or Gibbs capacities at 8000-9000 ftlbs.

Sure do. The main reason I went the Rigby route is because of it's versatility. That is it can be used on Large DG at close range and it will shoot flat enough to use at 300mts.

I like the 404J but to me its trajectory at 300mts requires noticeably more hold over than the Rigby. Now the caveat. With modern powders this discrepency is decreasing.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
As far as bullet selection dictating caliber; exactly how many types and weights do you need?
404J - 400gr solids and softpoints, or just go Barnes.
***

Actually, that's a good point and it moots the perceived bullet-selection advantage of the 416s & the 458.

One accurate 400gn load is all you need for the .404J - and you can certainly get 400gn slugs that will shoot accurately from Woodleigh, Swift, Barnes, Hornady, Hawk, & Northfork. Some of these, of course, will be spendier than others.

Hawk & Woodleigh offer 350gn bullets if you're looking for variety in reloading. Norma loads the 450gn Woodleighs, I believe ...

... But the real issue here in terms of cartridge choice is: how much diversity in bullet-weights & styles do you require at the 400-cal level for cleanly killing large and/or DG?

If you ultimately settle on the 404J, then you only need to zero your rifle's most accurate 400gn load to hit a bit high @ 100yds, and save your .375H&H for hunting that requires longer-range shots and for reloading experiments with the .375's much wider variety of bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Rule 303:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Rule 303:
I would go for a 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. Why. Well the 416 is more than enough gun and is flat shooting for any plains game to 300mts with a 400grain bullet. Go to a lighter bullet and is good to 400 if you are so inclined. The 450 Rigby is not too far behind the 416 in its versatility and way out in front of the Lott for versatility.

Sounds like you appreciate the Rigby-capacity case for cartridges over 40 cal. Me, too. They feel nice in the palm of the hand, with good balance in width.

However, at 50 calibre, I find that a shortened case (2.65" AccRel, or RIP's 2.7") is enough capacity (124+ grains[AmmoGuide]) and capable of 7000+ftlb. That would be plenty for long-range eland, too, but the gun is obviously a shorter range, Dangerous Game rifle. The Jeffrey and Gibbs can do the same at low pressures, and I don't really see a need to use the Jeffrey or Gibbs capacities at 8000-9000 ftlbs.

Sure do. The main reason I went the Rigby route is because of it's versatility. That is it can be used on Large DG at close range and it will shoot flat enough to use at 300mts.

I like the 404J but to me its trajectory at 300mts requires noticeably more hold over than the Rigby. Now the caveat. With modern powders this discrepency is decreasing.

Modern powders are a two-way street and they allow the Rigby to do things that the 404 can only dream about. For example, R-17 is heat-resilient and 101.5 grains with the Barnes 350 TTSX produces 2825fps in our Rigbys. That is flat and versatile.

By the way, I would also stay with 350 grains if you have the traditional 16.5" twist. 400 grain flat nose solids have a smaller margin for stability. Heavier CEB bullets are also quite sensitive to stabilization and rifle twist. If building the rifle, I would choose a 12" twist, or at least 14".

quote:

I am in the market for a more versatile big bore rifle.

quote:

As far as actions go I like bolt trash

quote:

I have a mod 70 375H&H and on the other end a 600OK.

quote:

versatile |ˈvərsətl|
adjective
1 able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities:

There are many considerations to take into account when looking at "versatility", caliber, rifle, cartridge, available bullets, and other factors...... Just because its a favorite of yours, does not make it the most versatile. I favor .500 caliber considerably, but would not consider it as versatile as 416 or 458 caliber......

Cartridge size does not necessarily mean its versatile, with cartridge size comes right behind it the size of the rifle itself, bigger the cartridge, the bigger the rifle has to be, and that does not seem too versatile to me......

Availability of certain components comes into play as well, some of these large capacity cases are not so easily available.


Bullet selection is perhaps one of the largest factors to consider. Just taking a look quickly on Midway this morning.

416 caliber bullets available-- 33 Total common bullets from 300-450 grs. Then you add the bullets from CEB, in particular one bullet, the 225 Raptor, now you are looking at versatility......

.423 caliber bullets available-- 16 common bullets from 340-450 grs. None of them for cheap shooting. Yes, you can make this caliber way more versatile with some custom bullets from CEB. However, I just don't see this caliber being easily that versatile.

.458 caliber bullets available-- 106 common bullets from 300-550 grs. Many of them dirt cheap. Lots and lots of versatility in .458. Then add some of the CEBs, in particular the 250 gr Raptors and Socom to this list.

I hear many of you talking longer ranges, 300 yards being mentioned as common. Do not discount 458 caliber here, if you do, then you would be wrong. For instance, I have a friend that has been shooting this 250 gr Socom in one of my 458 Super Shorts a few months ago. He is a long range shooter, with lots of match experience. They were shooting 10 inch plates at 400 yards with this 250 Socom at a mere 2600 fps, with 2 feet of holdover, which is not much. Now they just did not hit it a few times, but once the holdover was learned, every single time from that point on, boring and monotonous. Do not discount 458 caliber for shooting 300 yards, with very reasonable drop and trajectory.

Being big bore versatile, does not mean DG ONLY....... It has be be versatile enough to take pig hunting on some weekends! Now you can do that with 400-500 gr DG Bullets for sure, but do you really want to? And, why do so when so many better choices are available? If you are running a .423 caliber rifle, you may not have too many easy choices...... You may be stuck with that 400 gr bullet for 150 lb pigs. Versatile? Not hardly.

How about some fun shooting at the range, reduced loads at anything from 1200 fps to 1500 fps, some cheaper can shooting maybe? Well how about just shooting some pop loads in .458, 300 gr Remingtons, $330 per 1000....... 405 Remington, which is an excellent bullet for accuracy, $337 per 1000.........

The cheapest you will get by with this in .423 is a hornady at $1180 per 1000..........

416 is a little better as one has a really good Speer 350 that one can do some cheaper shooting, but still about double what it costs in .458 caliber......

One might think I am picking on .423 caliber, and to a point I am, I have nothing against it in particular, I just do not see it anywhere close to "versatile"......... Not in rifle, cartridge, nor bullet availability........

I take versatility another step, size of cartridge and what follows, size of rifle. Sorry, I don't see a 46 inch long 10 lb rifle as being very versatile. If ones hunting is always in the open ground, and you are a big strong boy that don't might toting around all that extra length and weight, have fun. Not me, I might be in some brush so thick I have to be on hands and knees crawling around. Now how is that fine 46 inch long musket now? Snagging and hooking on everything I am trying to get through, versatile? Not hardly........ 38 inches and 6.5-8 lbs is way more like it, and makes one hell of a difference at the end of the day............

Last year I hunted both South Africa and Zimbabwe with 458 B&M. Rifles is 38 inches long, 7.5 lbs. Shooting a 250 gr CEB Socom and Raptor at 2900 fps, 420 CEB Raptor at 2250 fps, 450 #13 Solid at 2225 fps, all within POI at 50 yards.
From Impala to Elephant it was pick and choose the bullet of choice for the mission at hand and take the shot. Versatile? Absolutely yes.

I can say the same thing about a particular 416 B&M I have, 38 inches 6.5 lbs, shooting a 225 CEB Raptor at 2900 fps, 325 Raptor at 2450 fps and 350 #13 Solid at 2400 fps...........

Both of these one can come back home, load up some pop loads and have some fun as well.........

This is just me and not a pitch for anything, but no doubt we all look at versatility differently sometimes, or sometimes what we like in particular gets in the way of our thinking........ You can take what you have on hand and make it more versatile than it is. I know I used to take a 358 STA to the field many times years ago. When hunting in places where there might be dangerous game, I made it a little more versatile by having a 280 Swift A Frame matched up with some 310 gr Woodleigh FMJs, both these same POI at 100 yards, and also matched with the 250 Hornady as well. 3 bullets, close or same POI at 100 yards made this caliber, rifle, cartridge, MORE VERSATILE. Would 358 or 375 qualify for THIS THREAD? NO NO NO HELL NO, not to me, as I see either not suitable for the heavies, caliber is just not there. Would they do that? Of course they could, but not better than 416 or 458, which will DO EVERYTHING BETTER than damned RAT CALIBERS..........

With the invent of these two bullets, .416 225 Raptor and the .458 .250 Raptor or Socom, there is no reason on this planet to go to the field for anything that walks from whitetails to Elephant with anything smaller..................

Ya'll have some fun..............

M

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S. Unless of course there is a .423 wildcat made on the Rigby case. Couple years ago I acquired a MRC stainless PH with a Rigby bolt face. Or maybe a 450 Rigby........

But of course, the 404 RIP.
That is the "404(.423)/.416 Rigby Improved Plus."

Same case taper, same base to shoulder length, and same brass overall length as .416 Rigby.

Shoulder is changed from horrid 45-degree to 20-degree which increases case capacity a small amount ("Improved") as well as aiding in reloading and feeding: Plus, Plus, Plus.

Plus the necking up to larger bullet: Another Plus.

Rigby Improved PLUS, PLUS, PLUS, PLUS: 404 RIP



Dakota M76 African 404 RIP:



Here are some actual chronograph results, and one predicted load I have not tried yet,
when I shoot it again I will start there, 112 grains of H4350 for +2900 fps with 320-grain GSC HV.
Actual velocities are 5-yard chronograph, not corrected to muzzle velocity, which would add some fps for true MV.
I will also see if RL-17 can get this bullet to 3000 fps, I have not tried that excellent powder in the 404 RIP yet.
All of this with a 23" barrel of 1:10" twist:



There are plenty enough .423" bullets to make any "404" very versatile.

GSC HV:



CEB used to make some:



Here is the plot of a couple of actual loads for each of those 4 CEB bullets,
5-yard chronograph velocities, so correcting to MV would add quite a few more fps
due to the low BC of these FN and HP NonCons:





I have a Talley Peep sight for the rear scope base.
Removing the scope and using the peep adds to versatility.
Switch scopes or use peep ad lib, is versatile, right?
Please excuse spot on forearm where rubber innertube straps on bouncing bakkie rubbed the paint daily in Tanzania.
I need to re-paint the stock, no problem, the stock is an MPI.
Anything I do to it will improve it, but at least it is custom fitted to my LOP, and I need no slip-on pads with this one: