quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have always preferred the 404 Jefferys for all my DG hunting and its served me so well, that I see no need for a larger caliber..

That said, the answer to your question should be a .416 Rem. its the most practical, ammo is always handy, components are everywhere, it performs as well as the 404 or 416 Rigby..I have used it quite a bit and again never saw the need for a larger caliber, but hey I think the 375 and 9.3x62 are perfectly capable calibers for all of Africa. Even on elephant the size of the hole in the brain makes little difference, and the elephants I have seen shot in the body succumbed to a .375 quite well. Lord knows its bent the knee of many thousands of elephant. I can't imagine life without a 9.3x62 and a .375 or at least one or the other. But the bottom line is a hunter should pick what he wants, its his hunt and nobody elses.

Although I would not pass up a hunt if I had to use the 404, I would disagree with its general recommendation. The 404 strikes me as a nostolgic round and romanticism rather than excellent design and ballistics.

For starters, the neck is over .6" long, which unnecessarily lengthens the overall case design. A shorter neck could be achieved in a shorter case or else a case with the same length and larger capacity.

Two, the rebatted rim is an unnecessary complication. I commend Ruger for going with the .532" case rim and body in their 375 and 416 Rugers. If someone wants more capacity, then the simple step up is the Rigby/Lapua case with a .590" max rim and body base.

Third, ammunition is loaded to relatively low energy levels, around 4700 ftlbs, which produces slow projectiles of 400 gn at 2300fps. Yes, that can effectively kill most anything out to 150-200 yards, but I'm used to faster, flatter rounds, and prefer hunting at 2600-3000fps.

On the other hand, as I age I reserve the right to change my mind and pick up less powerful cartridges for hunting. Right now we still shoot our 416s at 2800fps (350grain TTSX). I tried some loads a couple of weeks ago at 2600fps and didn't see much difference or reason for downloading.

If I were going to download to a 2300-2400fps load, I'd probably go with a 416Ruger, the ballistic equivalent of Ray's 416Remington. A 416 Ruger will be easier to carry than a 404 or 416Rem, probably saving a pound or more in carrying weight. And I enjoyed doing some of the test loads for my wife's 375Ruger. Even got a little bruise on my left shoulder, doing the work 'lefty style'. She didn't get any bruise, though, on her 110lb frame.

The 404 Jeffery case is not designed as a rebated rim case like the RUM case.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
The 404 Jeffery case is not designed as a rebated rim case like the RUM case.

Absolutely correct.

I stand corrected on the rebate, though the 404 ended up with a .544" body and .537" rim, just a tad off our .532" belted magnum norm.

CIP max brass spec for "404 Rimless N.E." aka 404 Jeffery:

Base diameter = 13.84mm = .5449" right at edge of extractor cut
Rim diameter = 13.79mm = .5429"

.002" of rebate is hardly a rebate.

CIP is the only standard I know of to refer to.

As manufactured brass may commonly be as much as -.004" from the max.

Brass could be made with rim bigger than base and still be in spec.

No argument here on velocity, but for DG I personally would not want more than 2400 FPS. I suppose some DG bullets can handle 3000 FPS but I have seen bullets including monolithics blow up on Buffalo and Hippo, I understand that even monolithics have a certain velocity corridor or range.

BTW with 95 grs.of my old surplus 4831 I can get 2652 FPS in my 26 inch Lothar walthar barreled 404 Jefferys, but my load is 90 to 93 grs for velocity range of 2300 to 2450 FPS. Jim Brockman of Brockman guns sez the 95 gr. loads I lent him to test his lt. wt. 404 were downright brutal!

Jeffery may have been prescient in his design.

Perhaps he envisioned the Barnes solids and their extra length for bullet weight.

My loading manuals say the loaded 404J rounds are a maximum length of 3.53" and case length is 2.85".

My BELL brass measures that 2.85".

The Barnes bullets out on the shelf measure 1.44" for the Banded Solid, and 1.56" for the TSX.

Loaded to maximum OAL, that long neck seems appropriate, as the front of the driving band area seats the two bullets to just about where the body begins the shoulder taper.

Used, as I mentioned before, as an Elephant culling cartridge, that would seem to answer the question about effectiveness; since a lone Game Ranger would not unduly risk his life in a small group of Elephants with a cartridge that was not proven.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Jeffery may have been prescient in his design.

Perhaps he envisioned the Barnes solids and their extra length for bullet weight.

My loading manuals say the loaded 404J rounds are a maximum length of 3.53" and case length is 2.85".

My BELL brass measures that 2.85".

The Barnes bullets out on the shelf measure 1.44" for the Banded Solid, and 1.56" for the TSX.

Loaded to maximum OAL, that long neck seems appropriate, as the front of the driving band area seats the two bullets to just about where the body begins the shoulder taper.

Used, as I mentioned before, as an Elephant culling cartridge, that would seem to answer the question about effectiveness; since a lone Game Ranger would not unduly risk his life in a small group of Elephants with a cartridge that was not proven.
Rich

Agree. And the .404 Jeff has been proven itself in the field as an effective DG cartridge since 1905, despite some of the comments posted here from quibbling, arm-chair detractors.

I have always had a fascination with .423 caliber.

With CEB making a 257gr tipped flatbase Non-Con, the 10.75x68 seems almost as attractive as the 10.75x7273.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
... as the 10.75x72.

Correction: 10.75x73

404J
Love mine