quote:

drewhenrytnt: I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S

Excellent. Or a Lott like Keith's.

quote:

It has be be versatile enough to take pig hunting on some weekends! Now you can do that with 400-500 gr DG Bullets for sure, but do you really want to? And, why do so when so many better choices are available? If you are running a .423 caliber rifle, you may not have too many easy choices...... You may be stuck with that 400 gr bullet for 150 lb pigs. Versatile? Not hardly.

Not so fast. In the .404J, pigs will fall hard to a Beartooth 380gn (.424 dia) GC SP.

Just $27.00/50pc too.

http://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

416 caliber bullets available-- 33 Total common bullets from 300-450 grs. Then you add the bullets from CEB, in particular one bullet, the 225 Raptor, now you are looking at versatility......

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

It has be be versatile enough to take pig hunting on some weekends! Now you can do that with 400-500 gr DG Bullets for sure, but do you really want to? And, why do so when so many better choices are available? If you are running a .423 caliber rifle, you may not have too many easy choices...... You may be stuck with that 400 gr bullet for 150 lb pigs. Versatile? Not hardly.

Not so fast. In the .404J, pigs will fall hard to a Beartooth 380gn (.424 dia) GC SP.

Just $27.00/50pc too.

http://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Nick....

Excellent point....... However, going over to Beartooth, I see the ONE bullet available in .423, and you are correct, $27 for 50... But in .416 they have 2 available 335 and 375 at $35 and $38 per 100, or $17.5 and $19 per 50..... I have actually got some of the 375s and shot them to good effect, not on animal tissue, but just horsing around at 1800 fps.... Accurate at 50 yards too.... But moving to .458 caliber Beartooth has 8 available bullets from 325 to 525 grs, and all cheaper than $27 per 50...... So I go right back to believing that 416 and 458 is still more versatile calibers, when nothing is considered but available bullets......... But there are many other considerations to take into account as well......

I know you boys like that .423 caliber, and I can find nothing wrong with it, but I just don't think it adds up to being as versatile as other calibers, not when you take everything into consideration. You can make that caliber versatile, but it will take someone with a serious interest to get it there........ and that includes rifle, cartridge, bullets all combined........

M

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

416 caliber bullets available-- 33 Total common bullets from 300-450 grs. Then you add the bullets from CEB, in particular one bullet, the 225 Raptor, now you are looking at versatility......

The 416 335 GCs work great--both with regular loads and TrailBoss powder-

Great turtle loads with the TB

(I have about 2000 of them to play with)

I have a copy of Pierre van der Walt's book "African Dangerous Game Cartridges". Good book, worth Safari Press's asking price of $85, just for reference purposes alone.

van der Walt has amassed a tremendous amount of loading book data from around the world, as well as numerous hunting stories and pictures.


The chapter on the 404 Jefferys is very interesting, one note is that it uses a .423" bullet VS the .416" and at the same velocity with 400gr bullets, 2350-2400fps.

If I may, "the territories now known as Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, and Zimbabwe adopted the 404J as an official game department standard issue chambering...thousands of Elephant have bent the knee before it."

In his summary, he lists the following;

Bullet Wt Velocity Kinetic Energy Taylor KO

400gr 2,375 5,011 ft/lb 57.4
350gr 2,525 4,956 53.5
300gr 2,700 4,857 47.5
230gr 2,975 4,521 41.3

This cartridge does not require the huge action that the 416 Rigby size cases do.

Sooooooo, 400gr softs and solids for DG, including charge stoppers, a 300gr for antelope and the rare finishing shot on a wounded animal leaving the area.

Add a good cast bullet mold, just for tin can culling down along the Snake River; and you're good to go.

Yeah, and that's why mine is about ready to go to the stocker.

Rich

Another mud turtle killer?

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
The 416 335 GCs work great--both with regular loads and TrailBoss powder-

Great turtle loads with the TB

(I have about 2000 of them to play with)

.423 vs .416??????

You are talking about .007.

Use a 416 Remington.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S. Unless of course there is a .423 wildcat made on the Rigby case. Couple years ago I acquired a MRC stainless PH with a Rigby bolt face. Or maybe a 450 Rigby........

quote:

I am in fact a hand loader. I mentioned CEB because I load them in 375, 308, 600, and now 350Rem mag.

Andy,

Splitting your existing .375 to .620 caliber bullets gives you a .4975” mid-point, basically a small 50 caliber cartridge with .500 caliber and .510 caliber being the closest two calibers. Using your MRC SS PH action with Rigby bolt face as the basis of a 50 caliber rifle, I’d recommend going with the500 Mbogo (.510 caliber), a .416 Rigby derivative. The .510 caliber has a pretty nice selection of hunting bullets including premiums from CEB, NF, and GSC. As a reloader you can load it to your desired recoil level with the bullet(s) of your choice. Plus, if desired bullet doesn’t currently exist – CEB is just a phone call away for a run of your custom bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am leaning towards the 404J because it would be a cool build on my Rem 30S. Unless of course there is a .423 wildcat made on the Rigby case. Couple years ago I acquired a MRC stainless PH with a Rigby bolt face. Or maybe a 450 Rigby........

Andy,

Splitting your existing .375 to .620 caliber bullets gives you a .4975” mid-point, basically a small 50 caliber cartridge with .500 caliber and .510 caliber being the closest two calibers. Using your MRC SS PH action with Rigby bolt face as the basis of a 50 caliber rifle, I’d recommend going with the500 Mbogo (.510 caliber), a .416 Rigby derivative. The .510 caliber has a pretty nice selection of hunting bullets including premiums from CEB, NF, and GSC. As a reloader you can load it to your desired recoil level with the bullet(s) of your choice. Plus, if desired bullet doesn’t currently exist – CEB is just a phone call away for a run of your custom bullets.

The 500Mbogo (Swahili/bantu for buffalo) will do the 450 grain GSC at 2800fps. The would be a great way to use a PH action.

The 500AR Nyati (Swahili/bantu for buffalo [yea, they have two words]) will do the 450 grain GSC at 2650fps, which is a great way to use a Ruger action.

The words-- BIG, Versatile

585 HE - Big, and has more bullet styles and weights

than other big bores from 340 gr to 1600.

340 to 605 gr Minies and flat based lead for target, deer, hogs.

Many heavier lead one available, heat treated hard can go as fast as

jacketed without leading, and works as good as CEBs in game.

650gr to 900gr jacketed for tougher game.Jacketed solids.... 1200gr to

1600gr spitzers for long range, or subsonic whisper type loads.

All the various Barnes other turned solid spitzers, about ten I found.

The turned CEBs and similiar. 58cal is where it is at, in 585 HE form,

for big and versatile. 3 barrels of cases here(US) and about

a dozen barrels more finishing up soon....Ed

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

It has be be versatile enough to take pig hunting on some weekends! Now you can do that with 400-500 gr DG Bullets for sure, but do you really want to? And, why do so when so many better choices are available? If you are running a .423 caliber rifle, you may not have too many easy choices...... You may be stuck with that 400 gr bullet for 150 lb pigs. Versatile? Not hardly.

Not so fast. In the .404J, pigs will fall hard to a Beartooth 380gn (.424 dia) GC SP.

Just $27.00/50pc too.

http://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Nick....

Excellent point....... However, going over to Beartooth, I see the ONE bullet available in .423, and you are correct, $27 for 50... But in .416 they have 2 available 335 and 375 at $35 and $38 per 100, or $17.5 and $19 per 50..... I have actually got some of the 375s and shot them to good effect, not on animal tissue, but just horsing around at 1800 fps.... Accurate at 50 yards too.... But moving to .458 caliber Beartooth has 8 available bullets from 325 to 525 grs, and all cheaper than $27 per 50...... So I go right back to believing that 416 and 458 is still more versatile calibers, when nothing is considered but available bullets......... But there are many other considerations to take into account as well......

I know you boys like that .423 caliber, and I can find nothing wrong with it, but I just don't think it adds up to being as versatile as other calibers, not when you take everything into consideration. You can make that caliber versatile, but it will take someone with a serious interest to get it there........ and that includes rifle, cartridge, bullets all combined........

M

How many bullet weights do you really need?

Between that one BT bullet, the couple that NF make, CEB's, DGS/DGX, and the TSX, what exists, that there isn't a perfect choice for?


Sure, there may be more .458 bullets, but that doesn't really make the 458 any more useful.


Have both, have used both, I can do anything the 458 can do with the 404, and less recoil. Perhaps, with pet loads, one can massage the competition a little. But the same can be done with the 404.


In the end, its really the shooters choice. But to pretend that there's something the 458 can do that the 404 can't is quite silly.

quote:

But to pretend that there's something the 458 can do that the 404 can't is quite silly.

I don’t believe this comment was stated or inferred.

I do agree that both the .416 and .458 calibers have far more bullet availability, many at a more economical price point, than is available in the .423 caliber. That said, one of my .338 Lapua derivatives is in .423 caliber and my bullet stash in that caliber is principally CEB. I reckon I need to procure a bump die so that I can take advantage of the inexpensive C&C .416 caliber spitzer bullets by swaging them into .423 caliber spitzer bullets to cut down on the cost of practice rounds.

quote:

How many bullet weights do you really need?

AK__Stick

To answer that direct, in my opinion, only 3 bullets is required to accomplish any mission asked of a big bore rifle. Primary Mission the heavies, buffalo, hippo, elephant. You need one good trauma producing bullet for BUFFALO. You need a good Solid to back up that Trauma producing bullet, and as primary bullet on hippo on the ground, and elephant... This is now TWO of the three. To make your caliber/cartridge/rifle more versatile than it is, you need a lighter, faster bullet producing trauma on smaller species from impala/deer to larger moose/elk or african antelope.......

Short answer........ How many bullets does one need? THREE........

But the problem is, that is not the point of the thread, nor the question at hand.........

quote:

I am in the market for a more versatile big bore rifle.

quote:

But to pretend that there's something the 458 can do that the 404 can't is quite silly.

I never pretend..... I don't have to. Furthermore, nothing was ever stated that one could do something another could not........ Silly? Maybe, to those who need to justify and or pretend.........

No offense of course to anyone, but we each do our best to "justify" our decisions I am just trying to see all sides of everything, and all considerations to the real question, "versatility"..... Bullet selection is an important part of that versatility, but there are many other considerations as well that should be accounted for. Since Drew is a reloader, this opens up all options for him to decide which will work best for him. Right or Wrong? No, there is no right or wrong answer, its what is best for the shooter in the end and what he desires to accomplish, what requirements each individual needs to accomplish his own personal goals...... Personally I can get by just dandy with those "3 Chosen Bullets", and never require or need more, but having more choices is always a nice option for unforeseen circumstances that might arise in the future......

Now I am off for a few days to put to work some of these options on buffalo and hippo ++............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
The words-- BIG, Versatile
... 58cal is where it is at, in 585 HE form,

for big and versatile.

First, the OP already has a 600 OK, so I think 585 is not quite in the middle.

I also would not call a rifle that is 13+ lbs versatile.

We got some only 9-10 lbs(Can be lighter) and can be loaded to moderate

levels which are still faster than 577NE. If you are reloader with bunch shooting

nuts and like to shoot couple hundred rounds on weekends, it is a fun case,

with the variety of stuff available that doesn't cost arm/leg to

shoot all the time. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
We got some only 9-10 lbs(Can be lighter) and can be loaded to moderate
...

How can you do your long range shooting (300+ yards) with your 1200-1600gr spritzers if you load to moderate?

I am not knocking your 585HE, just that I don't think it is as versatile as you think. To get the full potential of the cartridge I'd venture that one would need a rather heavy rifle. That is not something I'd want to cart on the mountains of Wyoming while going after Elk etc..

We'd use lighter spitzers for mountain critters, 600-750gr.
They good for 400yds plus. The super heavy spitzers
the main use for subsonic work, wouldn't recoil
to bad even in 9lb gun.

I mention lots of target fun. With minie bullet loads
70-90 cents each after you have cases, makes for versatile.
And same is good for deer and hogs and those damn coyotes
killing our deer here.Ed

416 Rem with premium 350, 370, 400 gr bullets.

EZ

If you want true versatility, there are 2 perfect options:

1. 378 Wby
2. 416 Wby

Both have the power and range to hunt any large game in the world - Antelope to Elephant - no problem.

BBM,

maybe, but they're so ugly...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
BBM,

maybe, but they're so ugly...

Ugly? .....?
Not to the Lolly Pop Guild

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

How many bullet weights do you really need?

AK__Stick

To answer that direct, in my opinion, only 3 bullets is required to accomplish any mission asked of a big bore rifle.
* * * Short answer........ How many bullets does one need? THREE........
* * *
Michael

Michael: dude, think about it. If we can agree that all the OP requires for practical diversity is THREE bullet-weights in a "big bore" DG cartridge, then his choice of cartridge is easy - the .404J.

There's a 300 or 350gn SP bullet (350gns @ 2600fps was the Jeff's original "plains game" load) for longer range hunting; the standard 400gn load using softs or solids; or a 450 FMJ slug (Woodleigh) for that extra bit of insurance against BIG DG. And again, the OP is looking at the various .400-class contenders in the context of the two cartridges he already said he owns - a .375 H&H and a 600 OK.

Since he's got the 600, he doesn't need to go bigger than the 400-class, as there's nothing in the 500-class of DG cartridges that can't be covered in the field by the 600 OK.

And if you really only needed three bullet-weights in factory or handloaded DG ammo, then the .404J gives the OP everything the 400-class offers with the least amount of recoil and, as noted earlier, the greatest history of real-world success.

Indeed, there's a reason Taylor called Jeffery's .404 the best "All-Arounder" of the DGR cartridges afield in Africa.

Is the 380 or 400 NF Solid to be preferred? Thank you.

I was playing around with my .458 today, shooting 350 grain TSXs, 420 gr Safari Raptors and 450 gr A-Frames. All three loads hit very close to 2 inches high at 100 and 4 inches low at 200 using the same sight setting. I've got a 2.5-8 VX-3 with B&C reticle on this rifle and with the scope on 8 power the crosshairs correspond with POI at 150, 200,250, and 300 yards. I can't help thinking that there isn't much that couldn't be handled with that combo of bullets. 450 grain solids and 500 grain Partitions hang in there quite well, past any range that I can picture using those bullets at. Once again, the same sight setting.

How's that for versatility?

The Great 458 Winchester Magnum.

JM

I went .458 Lott so you can shoot Win mag and lott. That is pretty versatile to me

I feel that the 416 Rem Mag is the 404J of the modern age. The same could be said for the 416 Rigby. I have owned and used both with complete satisfaction.

I hope to own a 458 WM someday so I can make an informed comment.

I have owned a 375 H&H or two; I also picked up a 375 Weatherby at one time. It just seemed more versatile to me than the H&H version, especially when loaded with modern uber-bullets (North Fork, GSC, etc.).

As a side note, my first CZ 416 Rigby cost me all of $695.00. I was able to practice a LOT. That is part of the versatility equation.

Even though it's really a medium bore but referred to here as a big bore, it's the 375.

quote:

Michael: dude, think about it. If we can agree that all the OP requires for practical diversity is THREE bullet-weights in a "big bore" DG cartridge, then his choice of cartridge is easy - the .404J.

Nick...... Right? Wrong? Nahh, no right or wrong answer here. Honestly, you and select others have stated a good case. Today we all have one big big advantage that we did not have just a few short years ago when it comes to making our rifle/cartridge of choice more versatile and more diverse, and that is "The Bullet".........

Today we have Cutting Edge Bullets and North Fork Technologies to assist us in making our cartridge more versatile, more diverse, and more useful than ever, and we do not sacrifice ANYTHING, in fact, we gain. Sorta like having our Cake, Eating, putting any sort of topping on it we want, and as much ice cream as we want too, and no compromise! How much better can that be?

I played with this versatility in 458 and 416 to do just that. I am very sorry for all you medium rat caliber lovers, but I have seen that they are just not even close to being as effective on critters as any big bore, starting at 416 +. Caliber makes a difference!

In 2012 I took my own 9.3 B&M to the field for the first time for a large variety of plains game from impala to zebra, and I shot more than a few of each. Anything below wildebeest size the little 9.3 with a 210 gr ESP Raptor at 2900 fps, from a 6.5 lb rifle and 20 inch barrel hammered anything less than wildebeest to the dirt where they stood. Going up to Wildebeast size critters, 1/2 of them dropped to the shot, the other took off in a death run for 30-40 yards, died on their feet. All of the zebra took off on a death run, died on their feet, none dropped to the shot...... Not bad for a rat gun, but much of that was bullet choice as well. By the way, no bullets were recovered, all exits.......

I was fairly impressed so far. Later in 2012 I took that same 9.3 for Australian buffalo shooting, and after the first day, I put it away as a useless tool. I would have to shoot a damned buffalo several times to put it in the dirt, and neither I, nor the buffalo were too impressed with it! For myself personally, that was the END OF even attempting to use a rat gun for real work. I reckon decent deer gun is about all that would be useful for....... And I don't hunt deer...........

I skipped 416 for the time being and went to .458, and worked out a 250 gr CEB Raptor, lever Raptor so I could seat deep and run talon tips.... Running at 2900 fps again, in a 18 inch 458 B&M at 7.5 lbs wood stock, this seemed good for larger plains game. Just a week or so before leaving CEB came up with a better 250 gr for the 458 Socom, had a lower shear velocity. I loaded those as well, and took some of those for the experiment last year. Things changed dramatically with larger plains game, wildebeest and zebra. Instead of taking off on a death run, they could not, they dropped where shot, with either bullet. Nothing moved more than about 5 yards from taking a hit. I even accidentally gut shot one wildebeest, and it was in such fowl shape that was sorted out permanently in under 15 minutes! Now if none of you have ever done this before, that would normally be an all day job, if you were really lucky............. Caliber makes a difference.......... Later on with this same rifle I used it to take buffalo, hippo, and a really good big bull elephant...... Versatile? I happen to think so, and not just versatile, but extremely effective on anything I wanted to do, and did, on last years trip, impala to elephant and everything in between.......

In 416 I dropped the weight to 225 gr with a CEB Raptor, hoping to get the same effect that I had with the 458s. Just after the trip to Africa, in 3 weeks we were off to Australia lugging along an 18 inch 416 B&M that weighs 6.5 lbs, and a 19 inch 500 MDM, .500 caliber...... The little 416 B&M shooting the 225#13 Raptor was a dream to work with, light, easy, fast, could not ask for better. That little 225 gr Raptor at again 2900 fps hit those buffalo hard. None were recovered from broadsides, full exits. Yes, I shot several of them more than once, but did so with the 500 MDM as well. Buffalo are not easy to impress with anything, as caliber increases, they become more impressed and it shows every time. Now make no mistake, I ain't saying you can't kill buffalo with rat guns, I am saying you just can't kill them as dead with rat guns as you can real caliber rifles, that's all........ I reckon a fella could kill one with 223, but it just would not be as dead as with a .500 caliber rifle. HEH HEH..............

I have not had the opportunity to work with the 416s and the 225 on plains game or thin skinned game yet, but from what I have seen on buffalo, I think the 416s and the 225 will do a fantastic job in that arena.... So much so, to the effect that I see never a reason to go to the field with anything less than 416 caliber, regardless if you are hunting impala or elephant, or wildebeest, elk, moose, bears what have you..... Just no reason at all, as I know that 416 is far more effective than anything less........ Why even bother with less?

I have not mentioned my own .500 caliber cartridges, which we have made very versatile, perhaps as much so as the 458s and 416s..... I have 6 different .500 caliber cartridges, numerous bullets from both CEB and North Fork in various designs to make each of these cartridges more versatile, and more effective, from 300 grains to 550 grains.
Another step up in caliber, and you can see it in the field. I have been on several trips and seen the effect on animals from impala to elephant.

I had CEB do a .510 caliber 350 gr bullet. Primary for the lever guns in 51 AK, however this same bullet can be put to good use to make 51 more versatile in the larger bolt guns, and many of the guys have. We have one of our own AR guys use this bullet with extreme prejudice on black bear, the video was incredible. This making the 51s far more versatile, and diverse.

Now, if all that can be done in .458 caliber and .416 caliber, .500, and .510, then it can be done with others as well. It cannot be done with rat guns, even with the very best of bullets you can't turn a rat gun into a big bore rifle!!!!!!! But you can most certainly turn your big bore into something more suitable for lesser game than elephant, buffalo, and hippo!

While you can do wonderful things with bullets today, moving towards versatility, there still are other factors to come to play, rifle, cartridge, and even more........ For myself I have found exactly what I require to be more versatile, without having to sacrifice having to tote around 10-12 lbs of musket length rifle. For me this works. Maybe it does not for you, but that is really your problem to solve in your own way.......

Enjoy the conversation guys, its always fun to talk and discuss such things.......... And I am sitting here in Pretoria with little else to do for a couple of days, other than what Momma has planned for me, which is making for pretty busy days...... Leaving next week for Zim to test out some more thoughts on versatility of rifles, cartridges, and bullets of course........

Michael

Have a great time, Michael.

Michael,

Just a thought on the action of the CEB on animals.

Since it is primarily large animals that are affected, where smaller bores (<40) has less effect, it appears that the center flat nose slug that is doing the primary work and game-dropping trauma. Lesser calibre also have the petals spreading out, and they certainly spread out far enough to crop animals DRT if they were doing most of the work. On deer size animals it appears that that is exactly the case. However, on larger animals, the petals do not seem to have that effect and it is the flatnose slug that does that primary job of dropping them DRT. That may explain why a noticiable increase in trauma happens over 40 on buffalo sized animals.

I'll post in terminals, too, where this belongs.

to complement my 375hh, i tried many cals, 416ruger, 458wm,458lott, 378wby, but felt .458 was the next step up so got a 460wby, can load to match any of the .416, .423 stuff even with mild loads, can load it right up to give the clout of a .500 cal, not much will complain about that, can use 300gr to 550gr, and pills are cheap. There are new pills here in oz, ACP, aussie custom projectiles, have some in 450gr to try on our buffalo, they will flatten them. i can load to match 458wm and lott or any other .458 round out there, thats the beauty of it i guess. 450 rigby has similar capabilities one would think also......................took me a few rifles to find the right gap closer............lol

quote:

Originally posted by cc:
To complement my 375hh, i tried many cals, 416ruger, 458wm,458lott, 378wby, but felt .458 was the next step up, so got a 460wby, * * * ... took me a few rifles to find the right gap closer.

No doubt, ... as well as a sore shoulder afterward.

I couldn't figure it out either so I have 2 375's (one that will probably become a 375 weatherby), a .416 RM, a .458 lott from AHR and a .505 Gibbs. And some 338 and 300's for the lower end. I figure that should be enough but hey. The more the merrier I guess?

416 Rigby or the 458 Lott. Heck man, just figure it out and GO HUNTING!

I tend to agree with jerry mcdonald.

I am a dinasaur. One bullet weight per calibre please, at least on the same safari. I'll play with softs and solids. Otherwise, you complicate my life.

Given my rules, a .400 is the most versatile cartridge available. I've done everything from duiker to elephant and stretched it out to 300 yards with my .416 Rem.

In my opinion, the .416 Rigby is the most versatile, but my personal choice is the .416 Rem. Mag.

Probably just because I like my rifle; and it works.

I have always preferred the 404 Jefferys for all my DG hunting and its served me so well, that I see no need for a larger caliber..

That said, the answer to your question should be a .416 Rem. its the most practical, ammo is always handy, components are everywhere, it performs as well as the 404 or 416 Rigby..I have used it quite a bit and again never saw the need for a larger caliber, but hey I think the 375 and 9.3x62 are perfectly capable calibers for all of Africa..Even on elephant the size of the hole in the brain makes little difference, and the elephants I have seen shot in the body succumbed to a .375 quite well. Lord knows its bent the knee of many thousands of elephant. I can't imagine life without a 9.3x62 and a .375 or at least one or the other. But the bottom line is a hunter should pick what he wants, its his hunt and nobody elses.