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The CZ safety thread has me thinking about a safety. No one that I hunt with carries a round in the chamber unless we are in final approach mode or in a dangerous area such as approaching a moose kill in grizzly country. I will not even load my double when moose hunting untill we see a animal and are closing in on the final stalk. It is all about safe gun handling. No rounds in the chamber untill needed and then never point the rifle in an unsafe manner. When I used to hunt with Remington rifles the safety's were removed. But now most of my rifles are Winchesters or Rugers so the safety stays on the rifle but is never used. To me, it is just something more to worry about and to flick off when the rifle is needed. Think about it for a minute and look at it with a fresh approach before answering. What good is a safety over good gun handling? They are useless at a range where the rifle is either loaded and being shot, or it has to be unloaded and action opened on the range. Revolvers have existed for a long time without a safety. What is your opinion? I do realize if you hunt with a round in the chamber they are needed. But then again, you would not be hunting in my group if you did  My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | ||
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You'll Shoot your eye out!!!!!!!!!........ LOL | |||
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The safety isn't for you. But is mandatory the iget behind you  The real safety is always between your ears not on the gun. | |||
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I hunt the same way, never used a safety. The only time I use the safety on a rifle is at a particular range where the range officer requires that all safties be engaged with the actions open and the gun laying action up. As you all know not all safties can be applied when the action is open, only push button rem style. I have seen many confused shooters by this extra requirement. As far as hunting goes, I only chamber before a final stalk and see no need there. I always keep the cardinal rule and only point my rifle at things I intend to shoot, kill and/or destroy. Matthew | |||
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You should always use the safety. It should only be taken off right before you need to shoot. If you do this every time you will never be standing there trying to figure out why the gun isn't going off and you are pulling the trigger. Seen it over and over when people are not using the safety, A quick shot presents itself and the shooter didn't remember to push the safety off. I grew up with a double barrel and my dad would knock me down if I pushed the safety off before the gun came to my shoulder. Habit and instincts take over in the heat of the moment. | |||
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Hunting in Africa, we follow a very simple proceedure. Each of us chambers a round as soon as we leave the truck, and put the safety on. The rifle remains loaded like this until we either get back to the truck, or shoot something and we are gutting it. At no time would any of us walk in the bush with a rifle that is not chambered. | |||
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Alaska or any grizzly country is the same..fully loaded, safety on. | |||
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A rifle is not loaded without a cartridge in the chamber and the safety engaged. Ask anyone who has ever been in combat. Once you've been surprised by a Buff at under three yards you'll understand. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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So that means you are walking with a loaded weapon an no "additional" safety in place.
Again, walking around with a loaded weapon and no "additional" safety.
I couldn't agree with you more. My dad was an NRA safety instructor and good, safe gun handling trumps any possible mechanical safety every time. As far as revolvers - with which I have hunted for many years - I don't know anyone who would walk in final stalk mode with the hammer cocked (on either an SA or DA revolver) which to me would be the equlivalent of "closing in on final stalk". If I was moving, the hammer was down. If I was stationary and my quarry in sight - sure, hammer was cocked.
There is no substitute for safe gun handling, period. I am not sure, though, that I would consider it safe to be trapsing around with a round in the chamber and no safety to prevent (or decrease the chance of) an unseen twig brushing the trigger or an untimely fall to cause an accidental discharge during that final stalk. All it takes is one step. But let me ask a question - what if, as you approach your quarry on final stalk, your game moves off three steps behind a bush. Do you unchamber the round, put it back in the magazine (assuming a magazine rifle) take a few steps to regain a visual and do it all over again? Or do you say "He should be right over there" take a few more steps in fianl stalk with a round in the chyamber and no safety on, then a few more, and maybe a few more then think "Damn, let me unchamber this becuase that was one heck of a final stalk"? I do it nearly the same way as you as far as when I chamber a round. Except I always use my safety and in my case it is on unless my finger is on the trigger then, like Sam, safety is "snicked" off as pressure is applied to trigger and not a moment earlier. Nothing wrong with using belts and suspenders when handling deadly weapons. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Well said, I agree  | |||
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To answer your question, if the animal went behind a bush or tree I would not unload the rifle. If he took off and a longer chase was required I would. Each circumstance could be different but I see the point you are trying to make. And yes I walk around while in the final stalk with a loaded weapon and no safety on. Having a safety does not give a person an excuse for poor gun handling. Not suggesting my way is the correct way or others are doing it wrong. I just see little reason to have a safety on any rifle. Having a safety engaged does not give a hunter an excuse to point a weapon where it should not be pointed. Think out side the box for a minute, would you feel handicapped with a rifle that did not have a safety on it? Would you cancel your hunt if your safety broke? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I always do as Saeed has described. Operating a safety is much faster and quieter than chambering a round. Opportunities for a shot sometimes present themselves very quickly and at close range. Speed and silence of operation can be very important. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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X2-Ditto or other little things that means either "ME TOO" or 100% Correct spot on! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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+1 Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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I like those specific weapons that have no safety, but you cock it. You can walk around all day with a loaded round, impossible for it to go off, be like walking around with rounds in the magazine. R93 is one, as well as a lot of combination weapons. If you waited to chamber on a drive hunt, you'd rarely get a shot, or if you did it would be texas heart shots. As far as the common bolts that are cocked and then a safety placed on, it depends, a lot of circumstances involved and how you hunt, have done it both ways, just use common sense, Waidmannsheil, Dom. -------- There are those who only reload so they can shoot, and then there are those who only shoot so they can reload. I belong to the first group. Dom --------- | |||
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Snowwolfe, Having a rifle with an empty chamber also doen't give you an excuse to point a weapon where it should not be pointed. Point a weapon at me whether loaded with the safety on or with the chamber empty will get you a stern warning the first time. The second time you just might eat a knickle sandwhich. For sure you will never hunt with me again. 465H&H | |||
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Because sh*t can happen Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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+2 You wouldn't get a shot at some game here if you didn't have a round chambered - OR as someone else said, only Texas heart shots. However I am cautious who I hunt with and we reinforce the safety routine. . | |||
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That is the procedure when I am hunting. | |||
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John Wayne once said "A gun thats cocked and unloaded ain't no good" "It don't make any sense" Loaded gun safety on and barrel pointed in safe direction. Don't push the safety off until you are ready to fire! Put it back on safe when it leaves your shoulder! | |||
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Same for me as Saeed does, with a couple of exceptions. If I stop in the middle of the day for a lunch, I'll usually pull the round from the chamber. Or, if I'm hunting by myself and I have to cross a bobwire fence, I'll pull the round from the chamber to cross. If I'm hunting with another, I'll hand them the rifle to cross, and vice versa for them. My mindset has always been that my gun is *always* loaded, even when it's not. And no, it's never ok to point a gun at or near another person, whether it's in your hands, or slung on your shoulder and tipping backwards. I've stared down a few muzzles that the guy in front of me had pointed rearwards slung on their shoulder. This has lead to a few "discussions", and me no longer walking near them. And finally, the main reason all my rifles have safeties on them is that I am NOT French. Si tantum EGO eram dimidium ut bonus ut EGO memor | |||
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I do more hunting when alone than with others. When alone, if there is a chance of encountering game, I will chamber a round and place the weapon on safe. When hunting with others, unless in a stand, I normally do not chamber a round till needed but it can varry depending on the situation. Nevertheless, always make sure you know the state of each other's weapons and always treat them as if they are loaded. . | |||
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Whatever gave you the idea I would point a loaded gun at someone reguardless if it was loaded on not? Also, I would NEVER hunt with someone who carried a round in the chamber. Guide, no guide, Africa, Alaska, or elsewhere. Safety or not. Unfortunately this veered off topic but that should of been expected. But I am truly amazed at how many of you hunt with a round in the chamber. Find it almost unbelievable that a PH would want hunters in back of him carrying rifles with rounds in the chamber. But hey, thats why they get paid the big bucks. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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What he said. My whole family does thus. the major safety factor, is never pointing it at something you don't want to kill, or accidently kill. safeties fail, mechanical things don't work right, bodies make sympathetic reactions or spasm. whatever. if you never point it at things not meant to be shot even an accident or malfunction becomes an embarrassment instead of a funeral. in my life I've had a couple accidents, and have witnessed a couple. but pointed in "safe" non-human directions. also, dry firing is not a bad thing, every safety is different, some have quirks. for instance, my 1917 remington (maybe all are like this??) if not all the way SAFE, I mean just a bit raised from the rear, will flip forward and fire at a little trigger pressure. I understand why some guys hunt with one rifle or all the same rifles design. in the end though, never point it at anyone you like (or don't dislike) and you won't have an accident you regret. Red | |||
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I will second this too, any time I'm comign out of the field, be it lunch, break, whatever, I take the the round out of the chamber and close the bolt with an empty chamber (decocking at the same time). I have had loaded guns accidentally pointed at me in excitement. I make it a rule to tell everybody that hunts or shoots with me "accident or not, if you shoot at me I shoot back". Red | |||
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Have always done it the way Saeed described. Never understood the chamber a round only when you are about to shoot. Maybe it is a blind hunting thing?? | |||
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But how would a blind hunter know when to chamber a round? Does he hear his service dog thumping his tail on the ground?  Sorry, I couldn't resist. I must be getting tired. Si tantum EGO eram dimidium ut bonus ut EGO memor | |||
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When I am hunting I always have a round in the chamber. If conditions warrant it I unload, such as crossing a fence, climbing into a blind etc... The most important thing is safety, MY safety. So, I feel most safe when my gun is "loaded". And as stated above I unload it when it is best for my safety. I do not "point" my loaded gun at others when hunting... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Originally posted by Saeed: Hunting in Africa, we follow a very simple procedure. Each of us chambers a round as soon as we leave the truck, and put the safety on. The rifle remains loaded like this until we either get back to the truck, or shoot something and we are gutting it. At no time would any of us walk in the bush with a rifle that is not chambered. I've hunted this way all of my life. Now there are exception, crossing fences and ruff areas for a few. I hunt with my rifle at port arms with the safety on and my hand over the trigger guard. | |||
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Ya, anyone that hunts in DG country without one loaded would be considered a fool where I come from. We just do not point the guns at anything we don't want to shoot. Unloaded guns will get you killed! | |||
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My 2 cents... I think a lot depends on the type of terrain hunted in. When you can glass for forever and count every ptarmagin ground squirrel within 2 miles, there is no rush to have a round chambered. With bolt guns I don't chamber a round until the last 3-400 yards, UNLESS I'm going through cover in bear country or near salmon streams, and even then the safety goes on. Otherwise there is no need for the miniscule fraction of a second saved over working the bolt while mounting on a snap shot. Same applies to levers. Taking off the safety upon mounting just before the finger goes on the trigger isn't any more complex to learn than loading during mounting. The other situation I can see having a round chamber is on a stand in cover where animals will only be spotted when close. With doubles I hunt with rounds chambered and hammers down (one reason I love hammer guns!!!!). Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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Snowwolfe, I meant the "you" to mean those carrying unloaded weapons. I was not refering to "you" as you personaly. By the way when your upland bird hunting do you carry your shotgun unloaded until the bird flushes or do you carry it with the safety off and loaded? 465H&H | |||
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Gotcha I don't even own a shotgun, lol. In Alaska most of us use a .22 when hunting Spruce grouse or Ptarmigan. But when I was a youngster would carry my 870 empty and pump a round into her when hunting ringnecks or cottontails back in Pa. Never seemed to have cost me a bird or a bunny. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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One thing I DO know, my opinion was rude. My apologies to you. I don't understand the logic, but to each his own. Rich DRSS | |||
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Well, sorry to tell you I been to Africa hunting plains game. The PH said no rounds in the chamber until we were ready to shoot. And if you think I have taken a high moral ground then you are wrong. It was how I was taught and how I taught my son and it works for us. I know a great many people who hunt as I do and carry a rifle without a round in the chamber until it is needed. And now since this has degraded to name calling I'll bow out and you can think as you like. The topic was about safety's. Take a survey about Alaskan guides and ask them if they allow there clients to walk around behind them with rounds in the chamber and I am willing to bet you a beer more than 50% don't. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I agree that the most important saftey is in your head. However, as most seem to here, I have always put a round in the chamber when in game country (in other words, walking around while hunting.) If I'm in a car or climbing something where both hands are needed, I will take the round out of a chamber, but otherwise, saftey on with one in the chamber. If you are following the rules of safe gunhandling at all times, its just another level of protection against having the gun discharge when you don't want it to. Personally, while I can see the advantage in some situations of having the chamber empty, I can't see any positive outcome of trying to stalk with a round in the chamber and no saftey applied- you are in a situation where your mind is not only on the trigger and where the gun is at that point... As many have pointed out, its easy enough to train yourself to take the saftey off as you reach for the trigger or mounting the gun. I have had a saftey not fully removed at times, and while its cost me a shot or two (until I got the gun fixed so that the saftey came off properly) I have not had a gun go off unexpectedly while hunting either. Its well worth the extra speed for a fast shot, yet having that extra bit of prevention. Also, who is to say that someone might stalk an animal, loose it, and forget to take the round out of a chamber-- sounds to me like a set up for one of those "but it wasn't loaded!!" situations when someone accidentally knocks the gun over in camp. | |||
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I have hunted plains game in South Africa twice, and loved every minute of it. But, that is a far cry from the real world hunting like in Zimbabwe or Tanzania, where you never know what might be flushed from underfoot in the long grass. Your PH probably knew the names of the animals you were hunting, and he knew they had no wish to attack you. | |||
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The PH we just hunted with shared how an injured Cape buffalo emerged from behind a large rock fallen into the river bed. His 470 NE put powder burns on the bull's face, saving both the client and PH from disaster. I was taught a different firearms protocol, by the USMC; safe on-hands off. Also, strict muzzle discipline. It may be stylish to use a muzzle carry in Africa but if this has the rifle aimed at someone in your party, you are treating them as you would your game animal. An empty chamber in an emergency is a rifle left at the Cruiser. The safety engaged on a loaded rifle, never pointed at anyone, is the soundest discipline. Saeed said it with brevity. | |||
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Everyone is issued a safety set; your dominant index finger and a brain. Keep track of both items.  | |||
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Hmm. I've given this some thought. It seems to me that ABOVE ALL ELSE actually chambering a round and putting the safety on does one major and critical thing... It proves to you that that specific round actually will chamber in that rifle on that day! And if it isn't going to chamber (and I'm going to have to drop the magazine and check the barrel etc., etc.,) then just before I take the shot is not the time I want to find that out. But each to his own. I agree with what ARMORER said and that - in UK - was how I was trained. Round in chamber, safety on, hand on grip but finger off the trigger. The only exception here in the UK is hill stalking as done in Scotland. In that the rifle (as in the gun) is really only relevant right at the end of the stalk. Up until that moment it is normally kept in a gunslip with either a loaded magazine and no round in the chamber (or indeed but never seen it done with chamber and magazine empty). So in fact on the hill the safety never gets used. You go from empty chamber to loaded chamber to taking the shot. If it were a double rifle or something like a falling block rifle it would be with an empty chamber. | |||
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