The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Ruger, is it possible?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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The 458 Win has a lot of advantages and one draw back. It will fit in a 30-06 length action and will hold 4 down in most magazines plus one in the chamber. It's draw back is limited case capacity. A 458 ruger could solve this draw back and still provide all the advantages of the 458 Win. Four down and it will fit in a 30-06 length action. The base of the 375 Ruger is given as .532, the same as the belt diameter of the 458 Win case. Belt diameter is what restricts case capacity in the 458 Win. If we assume a base to shoulder slope of .010 we end up with a shoulder at .522. The 458 Lott, Win and others give an outside neck diameter of around .480. This will allow a shoulder of .042 which should be suffecient to control head space as the belt on 375 H&H cases is only about .020. Such a cartridge should easily allow 2,200 fps with a 500 grain bullet and possibly significantly more. Well what do you think? Is it possible? 465H&H | ||
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15 thou per side shoulder and taper or 17.5 thou shoulders with a 10 thou taper...crunched the #s a few months back... the 458 a.r. will solve this issue much better or if you need it a 2.5" version. the a.r. will do 500@2400 no prob... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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You can get 2150 fps performance out of a WSM case in a 24" barrel with a 500 grain conventional bullet, so your figures for the Ruger case are in line. I have a .416 short magnum and it easily gets 2200 fps out of a 22" barrel with 400 grain bullets. As to headspace, the steeper the angle of the shoulder, i.e., Rigby-like, the less headspace problem (I think in my unexperienced mind). The Ruger would work at .458, but wouldn't a .423 be great, too... with absolutely no question about the shoulder? You'd have your cake and eat it too. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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+1, I'm still lobbying for the 404 Ruger! Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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the ruger case would probably top out on the .423 bullets... the shoulder would be way under .032 total... and, well, the 458 AR already is, on real brass, and the ruger brass? well, epxect it to be awhile opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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no, no, no... 411! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If one managed to build the 458 Ruger such that the .017 per side shoulder was very sharp.....as mentioned earlier....Rigby like..... then it has all the shoulder the current 458 Win Mag has and then some!!!!! A 2-die set for resizing....one to create a 25 deg shoulder and another to force that shoulder only to maybe 80 deg.......you have a very ridgid shoulder for a headspace stop. I'm with the others here however.....a 404 Ruger makes a lot of sense.....find a 450 grain solids and go kill something. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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you might as well do a 475 and headspace off the mouth... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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It woul;d be nice to simply run a rechamber reamer into 458 Win chamber and get a 458 Ruger. It could obsolete the 458 Win and end up with near Lott velocities. Sounds like a good business decision for Ruger. 465H&H | |||
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heck Boomy.....maybe I'll just do the "big bore" Lewinsky.....she can headspace anywhere she wants!!! However, I might have to go to Washington to find a gal of this caliber!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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the biggest the bean counters will let them go would be 416... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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the 458 and 470 question has been answered with the a.r. carts...the 416 will "go more boom" in the a.r. too 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boomy, So will the thing head space reliably on the shoulder in a .458? I see your number but I'm not a smithy type. Will it or won't it? Thanks | |||
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it would work...  it will have a better shoulder than the 10.75x68 the all knowing rabbi rip wont go less than 20 per side though... loaded long it would outdo the lott...but like i said the midsize action big bores have been answered by the a.r. carts...brass will be avaliable soon if yer nice to jeffeosso. 423 is the better way and the 411 and the 395 if you like to be diff  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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.022 is what you get with a HH case... but at an angle, that's a little tight my 470 case has MILES more than the 10.75x68  the 458 case, well, here's something that might get missed.. the 458 AR has a STRONG shoulder, which cases the case to be more effecient than the lott ,, if you loose that shoulder, you will have basically a straight walled case... the 470, with less shoulder, however, does have a bit more capacity in the shorter than .458 bullets, and is about equally as fast.. save yourself some headache and build a 458 AR.. rum brass is cheap and readily available jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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This is all very nice for simply playing with wildcats, which is a fun thing to do! However what is so good about a 30-06 length action?  The 458 Win Mag is short of powder space because the 458 Win Mag is short, period! The 458 LOTT fixed all the problems with the 458 Win Mag, with a simple lengthening to what the 458 Win Mag should have been in the begineing!  Load the 458 LOTT to 450NE balistics with a good 500 gr bullet, and go kill anything that walks, crawls, or flies, with comparitively low pressure.  The 458WM was brought out to try to get 450NE balistics in a bolt rifle, so Americans would buy it, and to avoid the drying up of ammo for the old double rifles, for guys in Africa, with a cheap to buy bolt rifle. In 1956, winchester had a 375H&H length action,so did everyone else, and brass was not a problem, but still they dropped the ball on their 458 WM by not makeing it a full length cartridge, pushing a 500 gr bullet at 2150, all that is needed in the .458 dia, for anything! The velocities advertized for the 458 Win Mag did not show up with out some problems, and the velocitties advertized for the LOTT, are not needed either. Stay at 2150 with a 500 gr bullet, keep pressures low, and kill/stop anything you want!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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They are very common. There's a lot of 7mm Rem mags out there demanding a change! There's also a lot of milsurp Mausers that will handle 30-06 length rounds with minimal alteration.
Possibly.....but the larger diameter cases do the same for us without lengthening the action!
I guess everyone sees the situation a bit diffeently. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I suppose that is the case here, But I simply do not see the need to turn to a wildcat when there are factory rounds that do everything just as well, with less fuss and bother, at considerably less cost! There was a period back in the 50s, and 60s when wildcats were the thing to do, and if you were shooting a factory cartridge you were a nobody, in the shooting world. However, most of those involved in building wild cats were simply playing, not hunting. There was nothing wrong with that then, nor is there now, but I, like the rest, finally came to the conclusion, almost everything we were building was a clone to something in a factory cartridge, that simply looked different, but did the same work. SO! I started spending a lot more wildcat money on hunting large dangerous game, with the origenals. I didn't mean to call anyone down for doing anything he wants, I was just asking why, when it is so easy to bypass all that work, and put it into hunting, that's all! So I guess your response above answered my curiocity, as to why bother! I'll leave you to your rat killing, and not bother you again!  BYE!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, I agree with you completely. I wouldn't be interested in a 458 Ruger wildcat. I'm hoping that Ruger will come out with it and Hornady produce ammo for it. 465H&H | |||
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Mac, no offense, but the lott was a wild cat until what, less than 10 years ago, before it became a saami round? and the 458 winmag was released to be a 470 NE in a bolt gun, though i AGREE it should have been called the 450 NE in a bolt gun. The factory doesn't have all the answers yet, and this ruger cases would have the same capacity as a 458 winmag... not to toot my own horn here, but the 458 AR has more case than a lott and fits in a standard action, so all the arguements about short bolt throw, standard length action (a zillion less bucks on a build) and cheap brass stand. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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No offense taken! I meant none either, just questioning the over all value of a short action, nothing more! Jeffe, all or almost all factory rounds were once wildcats, Hell Remington never developed a cartridge in all it's history, they simply made tiny changes to some else's cartridge, and stampped REM on the headstamp. A real example of that is the 416Rem Mag, which is nothing but a 416 Hoffman with a tiny change so they could claim it! As I said there is nothing wrong with wildcatting, I've done quite a bit of it myself, and still have some guns chambered for wildcats. However, most are a pain in the a$$,that can be equaled by something on the dealer's shelf. For everything gained by makeing a 458WM balistic clone, with more powder capacity, to fit in a 30-06 length action, it must be made fatter, and is negated in some way like magazine capacity, or feeding problems, all things that are costly, in time and/or money to fix. What you are saying is true, except for the 458 being made to dup the 470NE! That is what is universally thought today,because contemperary writers ay that, but like old ELMER, "HELL I WAS THERE!" Winchester wanted to dup the 450NE with a 500 gr bullet, in a bolt rifle, which, at the time of developement,(1953), was the round that all others was judged by for Dangerous game in Africa, including the 470NE which was simply a larger bore designed to salvage the 450NE double rifles,by re-boreing, and re-chambering, and get around the law! The only thing that made the 470NE so popular was ammo availability!It will do absolutely nothing that the old 450NE will not do as well! SO IMO, one is just as well off with a 375H&H length action, in the first place, with the narrower cartridge case, but longer, for ease of feeding, and better mag capacity,still keep presures low, and have factory ammo available. In the case of the lott, the ability to use 458 WM ammo in a pinch, and better mag capacity, without expensive drop bottom box iron ! Absolutely nothing out feeds the 375H&H case in a Mauser type action, and the lott is nothing but a 375H&H necked out to .458. I realize wildcating is fun, and that is all that is needed to justify it! No need to down grade better, or equal designs. If you like the wildcat, build it,but that doesn't mean it is superior to something already on the store shelves! Just another cartridge that pushes the same bullet to the target at about the same speed, from a shorter action. In the final analysis, for every plus found in a short action, there is a seperate, but equal plus found in the long action! That was the point I was trying to make, not trying to trash your wildcat! Again what is so desirable about a short action, that can't be countered by a long action? ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, all good questions, and I think the heart of it is, "what about X wildcat is better than what we have, in some meaningful way" and i totally agree .. look how many times in wildcatting i've "rained" on someone's idea, ESPECIALLY the 338 federal!! LOL so, here's my parameters... there are FAR more 7rem/300win/338win's made an sold, on every platform, than there are long actions... the m70 being somewhat exempted, but, alas, it is also expired and people are wanting 2x what they are worth. so, the first question is cost of the action alone, as well as availibility cutting up mausers to take the 3.65" cases is somewhat frowned upon, i know I certainly have, from a safety POV... much less COST.... so, the question is "how can I make a 7rem action (3.4") into a DGR that at least equals the NE rounds, and is cost effective. well, part of the answer is that the 458 winmag and 416 taylor are close, but no cigar... sure, they work great, but not EXACTLY the balistics people "really" want ... truth be told, 2200FPS with a .416 400gr or 458/475 500gr will slay anything on the planet graveyard dead.. okay, so, rather than go to MORE feeding issues (lets NOT start with a rigby case for the middle 40s... too much feeding work!!)... I decided "okay, what's cheaper AND easier to do"... and worked from there. So, the AR cases have slightly more case volume than the 416rem, 458 lott, and 470 capstick... but let's talk about the first issue.. FEEDING these require MINIMAL feeding work, assuming the donar action fed well, to have feeding slicker than a gut... that effort amounts to $$, of course, and is far less than trying to shoehorn a lott into a 3.4 action. design these actions are designed for a 3.4" round (noting mausers are designed for a slightly shorter round, but in most cases, 3.4 isn't a big deal) .. that means the bolt and timing are for that size, ESPECIALLY commerical guns. MONEY... a standard action costs less, on the whole, than a magnum length action (again, nod to the m70) and is easier to find in good condition. ALso, ALOT of magnum sized actions are already in big calibers, which sort of excludes them from this. A great example, the ruger 77 is 535 bucks retail, just about every day. The one for the lott is 1500bucks retail. You can be in and out of a AR for less than the cost of just the ruger. money. okay, let's assume you have a 7rem mauser, and want a lott... you are looking at 400 bucks for the bottom metal, and AT LEAST 200 bucks for the additional feeding work. If that mauser held 3 down, removing .015 off each side OF THE MAG ONLY (a 15 min milling operation, at worst), the AR will be 3 down. that's a $600 offset, just in basic cost brass cost rum brass is 50cents... lott brass, when you can FIND it, is over a buck. Forming the brass (time IS money) one additional trip to the range per year.. forming cases is trivial with the are cases... bullseye and cornmeal, BANG, trim... the end. EXACTLY like making lott cases from other rounds, when you can get the cheaper brass Pressure - the 458 Lott runs at 65psi to STRUGGLE to 2300fps. The 458 AR has 4% more case capacity, and the SAME velocity from a larger case is a postive gain (inverse of the 25% of case volume rule for GAINS in velocity, or about 5.8% lower pressure) So, if you take a slim and trim 7 or 300 win, a quick rebarrel (and associated stuff) you can BEAT the lott at the same pressure (remember, the AR has a strong bottle neck), in a nice, light, pleasent to shoot (HAR!) rifle. it's basically the same length as a 458 win, with more capacity than a lott, and far easier to "fit" than any of the full length HH cases. CHEAPER too heh, be nice, you know I am "thrifty" (not cheap) LOL jeffe mo opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffe, a very well made case for your baby! Now I hapen to have a number of Mauser 98s that I bought to get the actions, and in some case the stocks. I'm thinking.........barreled action! Maybe!!!!!!!!!!!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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good thing is now we have a 500 a.r. so we now have a cheap and good carts for m98 size actions from 550 to 416 (550 express 500, 470 458 and 416 a.r.) the ruger case will fill in the 423 and 411 as well as my newly formed dummy last night the 2.65" 450/400 3 1/4"...pics to follow on the 400 jeffe thread...two stars were born yesterday...also i will show the 2.65" 404 jeffe 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Guys, Bad news is that Ruger is already with Hornady playing witht the 416 Ruger ?, which dave of ruger said to me should be coming out next year Walter Enslin kwansafaris@mweb.co.za DRSS- 500NE Sabatti 450 Rigby 416 Rigby | |||
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great news...that will make it easier to make my 411 and the 395 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I've been listening to this debate and find it quite interesting. For the AR forum, somebody seems to be a bit ashamed at publishing the dimensions of the AR cartridges. I looked at the reloading section of the AR website and couldn't even find one picture of an AR round. I might be interested in re-chambering my Zastava 458WinMag to the 458 AR if I could get some dimensions and statistics on the load. Who has this info and where do I go to get it? Can you simply re-chamber a 458 WinMag to the 458 AR? "I ask, sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them" - George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during the Virginia convention to ratify the Constitution | |||
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the info has been out there and plentiful if you do a search and go on jeffe's web site www.weaponsmith.com always a good practice to make sure the mud yer slinging isnt poop first  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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www.weaponsmith.com is Jeffe's website; the dimensions should be there. If not, PM him and he will post them asap. Be wary though: he called me this morning while sitting in the Jack In-The-Box ordering breakfast! A number 17 and coffee. I worry about people that eat there a little! At least when he dies, the family won't need to embalm him! regards, Rich DRSS friend of Jeffe | |||
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here you go... jeffe...eat better...we need you around!  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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yes, a simple rechamber and maybe a tad of feeding. good luck! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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el jeffe!! I thought you enjoyed life!!!!!!!!! Eating that crap is almost as bad as smoking! Dude you're coming up with excellent ideas, so do us a favour. Please stop eating there and prolong your life! | |||
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Thanks for the drawings, I may take this a little more seriously and have a go at it. "I ask, sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them" - George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during the Virginia convention to ratify the Constitution | |||
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577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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MR, we've got something like 5 up and running, 2 more in the works, for the 458 AR. It's a great rechamber for the 458 winmag. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Don't forget about one of the best reasons overall...availability of LH factory guns in DGR calibers. After finding a LH M70 in 7Mag I gladly ripped the barrel off and made the conversion. Including the cost of the rifle I was out maybe 1200-1300 bucks all in. There isn't a LH factory/custom gun availble off the rack in a DGR caliber that can be touched for less than 2K. Cool cartridge...cheap to shoot...and outruns a Lott on a budget. | |||
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BOOMSTICK  You are costing me money! Here I've got my barrel ordered and everything planned for my .395 and you, YOU!, have to show me the .458 AR...  Just what I need to go with my .375 and the .395, a .458 AR. What else have you got going in that evil brain of yours that's going to drive me to the poor house? Max .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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the 500 a.r.   aka "mean little bastard" 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!! (i'll kill him. the courts will declare me insane. but i'll be out in two days due to leniency)  .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Prof... it gets worse... the rest of the stuff I did, as well as working rifles, are on my website below... the 550 express will make your head hurt jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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