quote:

These are over 30 years old, I think. Gil Van Horn was prolific

He has not passed away......and is still building rifles........

Hang in there boom stick. As for me, I have forsaken all but the perfect 500 Mbogo as my "50."

.338 Lapua
.375 Lapua RIPoff
.416 Rigby
.423 Lapua RIPoff
.458 Lapua RIPoff
470 Mbogo
500 Mbogo RIPoff

See a pattern of RIPoffs? That blasted .416 Rigby started it all in 1911.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

These are over 30 years old, I think. Gil Van Horn was prolific

He has not passed away......and is still building rifles........

Great to hear. He seems to have done it all before.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hang in there boom stick. As for me, I have forsaken all but the perfect 500 Mbogo as my "50."

.338 Lapua
.375 Lapua RIPoff
.416 Rigby
.423 Lapua RIPoff
.458 Lapua RIPoff
470 Mbogo
500 Mbogo RIPoff

See a pattern of RIPoffs? That blasted .416 Rigby started it all in 1911.

i cant decide between the 500 mbogo or the beltless a2 for the mrc ph action whenever it gets made

i SHOULD just do a 500 mbogo and split the cost with you since i was one of the biggest proponents of it and think it is the best design.

Gil Van Horn is just finishing a pair of super high grade 620 Van Horn Express's and is Starting on a pair of 700's on a super sized Mauser Action

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Gil Van Horn is just finishing a pair of super high grade 620 Van Horn Express's and is Starting on a pair of 700's on a super sized Mauser Action

Well, it pays the bills. Fools and their money are soon parted.

Seriously, has Gil ever taken the time to publish a memoir of his wildcatting?

Throw in some autobiography and field exploits by Gil and his customers, along with photos of some of the masterpieces he has crafted, and several volumes would be easy.

Getting it summarized into a one volume "highlights reel" would be chore enough. So much good work ...

As it is I have to satisfy myself looking for the brief mentions scattered through the last 40 years of journals I come across.

Heck, just a list of his cartridges and load data would fill a book.

Any contact info for Gil Van Horn?

Any Gil Van Horn pieces for sale?

Anything of or about Gil Van Horn would be interesting.

Lemme start another thread titled "Gil Van Horn" and see what shakes out.

RIP,

all I can tell you is Email or phone Dave Kiff at Pacific Reamers and ask for an Email of the reamer print. He cut exactly a 510 Wells Express less the belt. Call or Email Dave Davidson at CH4D tool and die. He sold me a 3-die set of 510 Wells Express dies. I lube the Rigby cylindrical brass and ease it into the expander die, not the FL die first because the case is too long and it crushes it. Once I have the case necked down, I chuck it up in my RCBS Power Trimmer and whack it off at 2.96" length. I slip about 92gr of Varget in the case on top of a Federal 215 Primer and seat a DGL Lube lubed 620gr GC bullet, which I am making from my brothers' 650gr RN plain base cast bullets for his 50-90 Sharps on the mill. Use the 1/2" collett and be gentle. I brace myself and squeeze the Timney trigger set at 3lbs. Ka-Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have a fireformed case and a near-religious experience. Unlike Paul Harvey, there ain't no "...rest of the story...".
It's that simple RIP-per. Ask Pacific to Email you both 510WX and 510KX preamer prints, there IS no difference except the belt. I have ZERO! brass shaving using the case mouth flaring die to form the brass. I will put $100 on the table and have FLA3006 load a case and fire it in his 510WX and tell you what dimensional changes he sees VS his Wells if you are a sporting man. Unless his reamer was different spec'-ed there will be NONE!! Or, have him lathe turn the belt of of his fireformed brass, FL size it and send it to me. I will put 92gr of Varget and one of my bullets in it and fire it (in front of witnesses if you wish) and send it to Jeffe for measurements...have FLA3006 send it to Jeffe first if you will. There is NO difference. Put the $100 up front and I will send the barrelled action, dies, etc to Jeffe...he can do the test and mike the reamer, dies and fireformed brass.

trust me man, I am looking at the dies, reamer, and ff brass.

Rich

Oh. Never mind ... thanks for the reply, Rich.

I'll try the expander die trick before the FL die with the Rigby brass in the RCBS 500 A2 set, just for personal edification. I am not a gambler.

Ron,

I tried a 416 Rigby case in my 500 A^2 dies and got the same thing you are describing. I even tried the expanding die first trick.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Ron,

I tried a 416 Rigby case in my 500 A^2 dies and got the same thing you are describing. I even tried the expanding die first trick.

Me too.

Wish I could find those old posts from '04 when I was trying to convince you guys that a .510" bullet would work from a Rigby case and be a good thing. Didn't have enough money at the time to go and try to prove anyone wrong, but I still love the idea and someday hope to have one. And I agree Rip, it seems to be "tops," though the 470 Mbogo can do things the 500 can't, trajectory-wise (not the biggest concern in this realm, admittedly) making it only slightly less silly for a one-gun safari.
Don't suppose it's any cheaper/easier to put a chambered barrel for either cartridge into a CZ550 Rigby, so why the hell not go .510"?

And Rip, you've really never found any errors in Ken's book?
Let me take a quick look....
p 259, top drawing, 338-416 Rigby with a casehead of .5430"?
(Mostly luck, I kinda just turned to it, but I know I've seen others in here.)
Come to think of it - that looks an aweful lot like the 338 AR! :-)
It's a fabulous book, but there's a few numbers off here and there, as can be expected.

Bwana-be. Thanks for pointing that out.
Ken got confused and gave the .404 Jeffery Rim diameter as the .338/.416 Rigby head diameter. He got the rim thickness wrong on that one too. Should be .0650" not 0.0500".

Well, Ken Howell has less typo's and screw-ups than J.J. Donnelly. That is safe to say.

I guess you finally convinced me that the .510/.416 Rigby Improved was feasible, and that just naturally leads to the best: 500 Mbogo.

I am a slow learner, but eventually my mind welcomes new ideas.

BB, RIP,
470mbogo handed me a 500xmbogo 2 years ago, oct 2004, that he had made up the year before.

jeffe

RIP,

Is this what your 416 Rigby cases look like after going through the 500 A Square die (or your equivalent)?

Jeffe, be that as it may, I recall you were among the biggest naysayers! I'll allow that it isn't the most sensible thing to do, but that it can be done means that it must be done!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Jeffe, be that as it may, I recall you were among the biggest naysayers! I'll allow that it isn't the most sensible thing to do, but that it can be done means that it must be done!!!

Nah... but, then again, i naysaided the 470 ar until i had the thing working

ScottS,

those cases look...well...icky! I am glad my 416 cylindrical come out of the 510Wells die looking all smooth.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
RIP,

Is this what your 416 Rigby cases look like after going through the 500 A Square die (or your equivalent)?

Scott,
That is it. Rich must have some sloppy .510 Wells dies if his don't do the same.

Jeffe,
I do not claim to be anything but a RIPoff artist when it comes to wildcatting rifle cartridges.

Gil Van Horn was making an equivalent to a 500 Mbogo 30 years ago, and it worked.

I am but a grasshopper ...

RIP,

What do you think would happen if I were to fire off those Rigby cases in the 500 A Square? The belt isn't too aweful much larger in diameter (~ 0.005" per side).

Scott,
Probably a case head separation ... but some of them might survive one firing ... to fireform a semi-hollow belt.

Don't do it. You know that anyway.

BTW, for typo spotters, the Hornady manual has the wrong case head dimensions for the .416 Rigby. What they show would be similar to Scott's brass with the "semi belt" flattened all the way down to the extractor cut.

RIP,

Thanks for the reply. What does the Hornady manual show for the Rigby's case head diameter?
The cases in my picture measured 0.588" and 0.589" at the case head.

Actually, I have been seriously thinking about trying the Rigby brass (I am a cheap and crazy bastard though ). I am concerned about the possibility of that much hot case blasting me in the face (308 and 303 Brits are one thing the 500 A Square quite another).

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
RIP,

Thanks for the reply. What does the Hornady manual show for the Rigby's case head diameter?
The cases in my picture measured 0.588" and 0.589" at the case head.

Actually, I have been seriously thinking about trying the Rigby brass (I am a cheap and crazy bastard though ). I am concerned about the possibility of that much hot case blasting me in the face (308 and 303 Brits are one thing the 500 A Square quite another).

Scott,
IIRC, Hornady was showing 0.582" for the Rigby head diameter. That is what the .460 Wby is just ahead of the belt. They just got it mixed up. The proper max specs for the .416 Rigby are .589" head and .590" rim diameter.

If you did have any .416 Rigby brass to survive fireforming in your 500A2, it would be pseudo belted or balloon-belted for the next shot.

ScottS and RIP,

thanks for your thoughts RE the Rigby phantom belt. You two caused me to go out to the shop and mike some twice-fired cases. Saw a line, but mo measureable change in the case. Soooooooooooo, I take the case and head for the range. 5 rounds out of the case and FL size each time, 650gr bullet 96gr of H4320...rocked MY world a degree or so, did you guys feel the earth shift about 10:00am MST? No measureable growth. I DO use the case expander die to FL my cases, then trim, then FL size. Pulled the rim off two cases early on before figuring out that they are 3.050-.060" too long to go in the FL die. Made a pilot for the RCBS power trimmer in about 5 minutes at the shop. Slide the case in, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr for about fifteen seconds, and 2.90" cases. Size and reset the trim die to 2.90" length. Fireform. Piece a cake.

Rich

Rich,
You will have no balloon belting by firing your brass in the beltless chamber.

We just don't understand how you can size Rigby basic brass in .510 Wells dies without getting the "phantom belt."

Your .510 Wells dies must be just a few thou oversize at the base. That would explain everything, and that might be within tolerances to make everything work fine for you.

You have CH4D dies, no?

I have RCBS 500A2 dies, and I think Scott does too.

ya gotta stop buying dies at Wal-Mart!

Rich

PS: my dies size to exactly 510 Wells specs, and
they also match my Dave Kiff reamer specs.

I think I would go with the plain Jane, boring, non-wildcat 500A2 with the roomy 460 Weatherby case and the nice "good-head-spacing-guaranteed belt." I have heard good reports about their feeding well in CZ 550 Safaris. Probably load it down to 500 Jeffrey levels.

Of course you gentlemen are free to pursue what ever marriage of powder chambers and .510" bullets that you want....

I think the key word in this latest post is "boring".

Big bore rifles, to me at least, are a personal expression, of my tastes in a rifle and cartridge case. I reload everything I shoot, so a wildcat is personalized. Sometimes I am just curious, me and the cat, right? I built a 22-378 Wby-AI to see what Bob Forker was talking about in 1964-65 at Guns & Ammo. I own a gorgeous 416 Rigby, a CZ550 Safari Magnum. Lovely rifle, shoots about an inch at 100yds and that awesome set trigger. I greatly prefer my 375H&H Improved, and the 510KX and 550 Gibbs-thingie are going to be "almost heaven". Because I did them to my specs, and I am assisting in the building of these two bombers. You cannot tell me buying any rifle would be as much fun as designing a cartridge to fit your needs, and then help build it. Sigh....

There is no wrong answer here, just personal preferences...

Rich

EKM,
You are being far too practical and making too much good sense.

Rich,
IIRC, my 500 A-Square dies were close to 300 bucks and they work perfectly. I think that was 1998 dollars, and I ordered them from Huntington's. If Wal-Mart offered them they might have been cheaper, aye. Did I get suckered? Would I be better off with loose based dies like yours?

mine were under a C-note this summer when the post began. They work...

Rich

I'm thinking with 600gr bullets and loaded warm, that come shooting time it would be plenty non-boring.

Probably make my 416 Rigby and 458 Lott kinda tame.

RIP,

My dies are CH4D, not RCBS. So it appears that both RCBS and CH4D dies may not be appropriate for resizing the Rigby case to a beltless Wells or A Square magnum.

If you resize rigby brass in a wells die.
the dies have a SHARP edge at the top of the belt. The rigby is slightly larger, and therefore you scrape a psuedobelt into it.

if the belt wasn't in place in the dies, it would just smash the case to size, as the taper would continue to the case head.

if the dies and reamer are cut the same (no belt), once sized, there would never be an issue. I doubt rich's dies would leave the beltline, as there's no belt in the case?

j

of course, if you just fireform the rigby

jeffeosso,

quote:

the dies have a SHARP edge at the top of the belt. The rigby is slightly larger, and therefore you scrape a psuedobelt into it.

Not so sir, not so.

If the belt counterbore was missing in the die, there would still be a belt made due to the larger OD of the Rigby case (if you actually forced it all the way down you would almost certainly tear the rim off trying to extract the "sized" case as well). I have seen this many times with overloaded 308 Win cases. Once run through the full length (NOT SMALL BASE EITHER) sizing die I am left with a belted case, where the belt measures 0.003" to 0.005" of an inch per side (depending upon just how TOO hot the load was).

I think RIP has the right of it, Idahosharpshooters Wells die is a bit oversize in it's bore.

Scott,
this there a belt cut into your dies?

it will scrap, as it's lesser diameter than a rigby case..

where a rigby die won't

jeffe

jeffeosso,

The question/issue has always been how a 510 Wells full length sizing die DOESN"T generate a belt when 416 Rigby brass is run through it.

I have made a great deal of belted 308 Winchester cases using a standard Lee and RCBS full length sizing dies. They leave no burr, but they most certainly generate a belt. When one runs 416 Rigby brass through a 500 A Square full length sizer one gets a belt and a burr. The process begins about 0.125" above the burr shown in those pictures I posted. One simply cannot do it if the dies are anyway near 0.582", which is what they are supposed to be nominally (I assume as I do not have the drawing). To support my argument I provide that RIP and I get identical results with two different manufacturers full length dies.

Just remember the discussion revolves around:

quote:

The question/issue has always been how a 510 Wells full length sizing die DOESN"T generate a belt when 416 Rigby brass is run through it.

You seem to be forgetting that and twisting words again.

Yo ScottS,

I use the expanding die with the expander removed to form the cases. Then trim and fireform.
I dodged your trainwreck by using cylindrical brass to start with.

Rich

second thought: is the resistance you get when trying to expand that neck from 416 to 510 caliber the culprit?

Rich

IS,

So you have a three die set? You must have a sloppy chamber in your rifle (by 510 Wells standards), as I cannot get a 416 Rigby case to fit in mine, unless I get the "belt" formed into. The Rigby case is simply about 0.005" to 0.006" too big in diameter just forward of the belt position on the 510 Wells / 500 A Square.

Regarding your second thought, I have run the cases through the die with the expander removed, no difference. Fits is fits.

okay, you guys know my dies are "sloppy" because they do not deform brass. All I know is that they mike within .0004-5" of the same dimension before FL sizing, before firing, and after firing at the base; that and they do not have the belt. I turned the belts off of several .460 cases to test YOUR theory...no measureable difference in dimensions. My dies are functional and non-destructive to brass, and that is the bottom line. I just finished loading and firing one case over 25 times...no change in dimensions from new. Now I am out of H4320 and bullets...got to spend $$ at the shop tomorrow and cast some bullets.

Rich

Idahosharpshooter,

quote:

okay, you guys know my dies are "sloppy" because they do not deform brass. All I know is that they mike within .0004-5" of the same dimension before FL sizing, before firing, and after firing at the base; that and they do not have the belt. I turned the belts off of several .460 cases to test YOUR theory...no measureable difference in dimensions. My dies are functional and non-destructive to brass, and that is the bottom line. I just finished loading and firing one case over 25 times...no change in dimensions from new.

That is very interesting considering that the 460 Weatherby magnum is ~ 0.009" smaller in diameter than the 416 Rigby just forward of the belt. Below you will find a statistical study performed on Norma manufactured cases, 20 460 Weatherby mag some shot several times others brand new, and 416 Rigby some 16 years old and shot God knows how many times, and some only 2 years old and shot once or twice. Anyway, the standard deviation of both populations is practically identical. Both cases were measured in the same position axially along their length (just forward of the belt on the 460 Weatherby case). This was done via jig. The results indicate that there is no way, statistically speaking, that a 416 Rigby case (made by Norma) would ever fit into a 460 Weatherby (510 Wells, 500 A Square, etc, etc,) die without a belt being generated. This is due to the fact that the 460 Weatherby magnum case is over 0.009" smaller in OD than the Rigby case. See for yourself.