Well woke up this morning after passing out on Vicaden (had a double-cut bastard file go through my hand when I was working on the lathe, wasn't my idea of a fun day) and I came up with a good idea, I think. I have already drawn up a few rough blueprints and it looks promising. Has anyone heard of a legit slide-action expess rifle? I'm not going to spill out my idea until I machine out a working prototype, but I'm going to build it around the .458 Lott on a completely new design. This ain't gonna be no built-up shotgun or anything, the design is actually pretty neat. Lemme hear some opinions from everyone!

After looking at the Hawk cartridges, I thought a Rem pump in 400 Hawk would be fun on a prarie dog safari

Sounds like you need to put some handles on your files and learn to use them left handed..... At least on the lathe. Hope your hand heals fast.
gunmaker

Man,

I bet that's going to leave a mark! Have you considered how long the slide action is going to have to be for DGR cartridges? Good luck

Rich

Make a lever gun and Boomstick will get one immediately.

All kidding aside sir I truly believe that the DG fraternity is "old school" and if it ain't bolt action or side by side double it's not going to fly.

Didn't mean to rain on your parade but I'm just being honest and telling it like I see it.

Lol...as for the hand, it went through my right palm, broke my ring and pinky fingers and tore my tendon sheath to shreds. I was smoothing a quick chamfer on one of these hinge pins for the AAV's I was working on at about 1200rpm and it snagged the piece. What was weird was I felt a thump and didn't realize what went on, so with the file sticking halfway through my hand I turned off the motor and started looking at the piece. I went to reach for the piece and the file caught my cammie blouse, so I looked down and just about had a anurism!
The action actually shouldn't be too long, given I design it correctly. The length of travel for the pump, if I'm generous, should only be 7", probably a mite shorter. In the vaguest term I can think of, it's going to be basically a straight pull modified into a pump, however with several modifications I have thought up of. Here tomorrow I'm going to start the rough blueprint of the rifle (Thank god for CNC!) than after I get my surgery I'm going to go full-out making this rifle into a reality. Just gonna have to learn how to shoot left handed for a little while!

Vapodog- Lol...already toyed with the lever action idea, just isn't appealing to me.
Don't worry though, you didn't rain on anyone's parade. Once I get pictures of when I'm finished, I'm sure it'll bring smiles to people's faces. I'm not trying to change anything, just going with a hopefully successful idea that might be convenient.
Gotta run chaps, starting to get hungry!

I understand the Colt Lightning was available in the .50-110 once upon a time, so the basic idea has been done.

Most folks have experience with a slide-action shotgun, AKA pump.

Slide-action rifles can be very fast in operation, but aren't as good as a bolt rifle in primary extraction and in having good triggers. They are also noisy.

I would work with a shorter cartridge of equivalent power. Check out the promised .375 Ruger for example.

jim

If it were to be a dangerous game rifel wouldn't you worry about short stroking (pumping in your case) and jamming up the rifle? Wonder too if you had somekind of extraction failure, a pump just doesn't have the camming energy of a bolt rifle. Just some thoughts

True, didn't think about the short-pumping problem. But in the same sense you could potentially run into the same problem with a bolt action, accidently rechambering a fired round. I'm working on the extractor design right now actually, I don't think it will be that much of a problem.
There are pro's and con's to this design, no doubt about it. It's gonna be noisy, there's a potential for jamming, etc. But any rifle has it's pro's and con's, such as the Remmy not being controlled feed for example. I just want to put myself through the test and create something kinda new that hasn't been tread on yet.
But thank you for the thoughts! It's helping me think about what to look out for!

I guess all actions of their pro's and con's. I was thinking mainly of the controlled feed of the 98 Mauser action when I mentioned short stroking the bolt. In that particular action it picks up the cartridge immediately and you either chamber it or eject it. That's what I was getting after. Even the push feeds are negligent in that respect.

Good luck on your project.

You know, looking at the way this action works, I could make it a controlled feed. Dammit man, you've got my brain running a million miles now. Lemme see if I can do this on the blueprint...

Okay so I modified the bolt face a wee bit than tweaked the action works...it's gonna be a tight fit the way the action bars work, however once I get started on the prototype, I'm sure I can get it to fit better. I don't like working from blueprints actually, it's kind of my way to put down ideas. But it should work, if not than I'll make it work.
You know on one of the forums I read that a machinist with a imagination is a scary thing, and I'd agree. Aside from my job in the Marine Corps I'm also a tattoo artist so you can only imagine how truly intricate some of my work can be!

If you were to chamber your pump in 458AR, you could shorten the pump stroke probably by an inch.

I think it is a great excerise that you are starting on. Even if this will be the only one built, it should be a learning experiance.

Keep us posted.

Hog Killer

ps: go buy a case of file handles

An interesting project. By restricting your invention to current cases with sufficient taper, extraction should be less of a problem than with the Ackley Improved or similar others.
I've been tempted to have a Rem 760 converted to the .400 and doing minor mods to improve feeding, extraction, ejection, etc.

Sign me up for a guinea pig.

$#%&@*!

man...sorry to hear that

have a glass of scotch and mixed with that vicadin you wil feel reeeeeeel goooooood...

don't waste the exercise on an ordinary cartridge ! ed hubel and big al would be your first customers if you would make it in 4 bore ! a true traditional african caliber.

when i was approached about an action for a 4 bore my reply was - why not go full tilt and make it a one pounder. use a can of 3031 for the charge and you'll never experience anything like it again.

if you make it a REALLY BIG BORE you could sell it to the cops as a door buster.

are you sure this idea didn't come to you in the pain of the chisel incident..... which i hope you recover from quickly !

It is, of course, going to be a side by side, is it NOT?

why not just buy two of Tomo577's Wickliffe 76 actions and glue them together? Think of it! A falling block double SxS DGR!!

Rich

Lol...Thanks for all the encouraging words about my hand. Went to the doc the other day and I came down with a bout of Tenosynovitus, which is a mega-staph infection. Kinda put me out of the shop for a few days so my work halted on this piece.
I've already created a double barrel pump action shotgun one time, it's a feat to do and it looks like a damn sumo wrestler but it was a neat project. I think I'm going to work this one to be a single shot first, than if I get enough positive feedback than I will reengineer it to be a double barrel. Judging from the way the action's going to look, making it into a double barrel would make it look as chunky as Rosie O'Donnell.
You know I've been thinking about building a 4-Bore for a long time. I don't think I'd be able to do that here in California, but once I move to Minnesota here in 8 monthes than I'll get to work on that. Who would be able to make a barrel for one of these?

Alright now for the fun part of this project. I know this one's gonna throw a giant debate, but I'm having trouble deciding. This rifle is going to have a internal magazine, keep in mind. But I want to chamber it in a cartridge .458 or over. I want to do either a .458 Lott or maybe even a 45/70. I know what Boomstick's choice will be!

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
If you were to chamber your pump in 458AR...

As much as I hate to admit it, the AR round WILL exceed the Lott and in a shorter package.

Hog Killer

In that case...a shorter more efficient package does sound better than a Lott. Does anyone have available reamers to this cartridge?
Alright here's the line-up. So far as for projects since my move, once I'm done with this pump I'm going to work on a entirely new action that will look weird, but it'll be inherently more accurate than a turn-bolt action which might appeal to the bench-rest group, but not so much here. That's a different story, but once that's done than I'm gonna gear up and build a friend of mine a double 4-bore. Will keep everyone updated on that and will include pics. This is gonna be great! I can't wait to get started on building that!

quote:

Originally posted by The Metalsmith:
In that case...a shorter more efficient package does sound better than a Lott. Does anyone have available reamers to this cartridge?

Talk to jeffeosso about the reamer.

Hog Killer

Hello all, tomorrow is the big day with the surgery. I've already cut out a aluminum dummy to test the function of the firearm and well gents, it's going to be a winner, the whole thing came together like a dream. I just ordered a few blocks of 4140 and well, after I'm off the drugs and can legitimatly use my right hand again, I will be assembling the first of this. Than, after that's been taken care of and it pleases my insane taste for weird guns, I'm going to work on a 4-bore. Thank you for your opinions as they have really helped in making the semi-final product and helping me choose the better calibers. Wish me luck when they cut the hand up!

Hope you heal up quick!

http://www.weaponsmith.com/AR-rounds1.html

I know a guy who got his right hand ripped off by a 15 inch lablonde. He was polishing a shaft with about 3 feet of ribon emmery, way too long.
The ribbon doubled on itself, got ahold of his fingers and took it off. sad.
Timan

Just logged in to this thread. I think it a cool idea!!! If one is worried about short stroking couldn't a ratchet type system be divised that would only allow a full stroke before returning to battery? Just wondering.

By the way Metalsmith....where in Minnesota are you coming to? I am outside of Itasca State Park.

Keith

I agree. This would be a neat idea. Pumps are fast to operate. So, you're coming to MN? I'd love to see these projects in person! Let me know when you arrive and I'll buy you a beer/coffee/whatever.

Lots of luck with the surgery - heal fast!

Think about it. How many sooters will short stroke a model 12? To me, a pump is a much more instinctive action than a bolt action. If it were not so, policemen would be using svage bolt action shot guns instead of pumps for tackeling the most dangerous game- a gun toteing bad guy. Sure a double rifle giives two quick shots but the third and fourth are much faster with a pump.
As an aside,I think it is a great idea. I have never understood why a double rifle costs so much more than a double shotgum. they are about the same.
I would love to see the schematics on metalsmiths pump but understand the dangers of puting ideas on the "web".
I hope the recovery is going well.
Judge Sharpe

Metalsmith,

I hope your surgery went well and you're up and making spall again soon!

George

the surgery was a success, i think i'm officially robocop now. got a replaced hip, knee cap and screws in my left ankle, and now i've got wires connecting my hand together. thank all of you for your kind words and encouragement. i'll be up and running back in the shop after about 10 days.
i'll be moving to either duluth or hopkins, depending on which job comes out on top. i know that's kind of a huge gap but they both have a lot to offer, thinking duluth would be a damn fine place to live. should be there around mid-august, maybe late july depending on how fast my retirement gets signed off and if i can grab some leave beforehand.
well i had the corporal in my shop order some 4140 and it'll be prepped and ready for when i get these bandages off. this project is gonna be on full bore after that. judging from how much fun this has been this isn't going to be the last project coming up from me. but it's time for the meds and bed, catch you all later

Excellent news!!

they at least use 8620 for the wires ?

Metalsmith, Do you know Dave Ransbeger? Saw you were in Camp Pendleton

Metalsmith, make sure to get a handle for that file. I did the same thing a few years ago and I know how it feels.

Well this idea kinda went into the dust! So I ordered the 4140, accordingly, and machined out a beautiful working prototype action. All the timing was set correctly after slaving for countless weekends here in the shop, and it locked up like a vault, or so it seemed. I had heat treated it here in the shop to a 30 HRC and went ahead and chambered it for the .458 Lott. Than I rigged up a pretty rough trigger mechanism and made a impromptu pump to work the action. So off to the range, luckily my instinct from listening to my father kicked in and I went ahead and attached a string to the trigger, put the action in a clamping vise I devised, and stepped behind a concrete wall and gently pulled the string. I heard the boom and a lot of clanking, and when I stepped out from behind the wall the action was destroyed! The bolt had come unhinged from action bars and flew against the concrete wall, also ruining pretty much all the internals of the action and blowing out the front ring/recoil lug. So here's my conclusion after looking at it in the shop:
-Action pins were improperly tempered, were sheared where they met the bolt
-The dropping cams were improperly set upon chambering, causing everything to fly apart, maybe due to a headspacing problem
-Possibly improper heat treat of the action
-Action may have been too small to properly contain the pressure of the cartrige.
So after running dummy cartridges through the action and assuming all was going to be fine, it really wasn't. Luckily I had enough common sense to hide behind that wall! So I'm dropping this idea currently and resuming work on a prototype that I had in the workings a while ago that I know will work.
By the way I ordered file handles and they're working like a charm, I have a new found respect for rushing a job on a lathe! And as for the wires in my hand, they're stainless, I think probably 420 or something around that series. All I know is that it sets off the metal detectors in the airport and it's becoming a nuisance!

sorry about project not working out did you take pics of the various points of progress it would be interesting to see.As far as airport you will get used to it i fly internationally every 2 yrs for my second job and i just tell them they need a male wand,as the screener with wand is supposed to be same sex as you are.it sure does slow down the processed of getting checked

Too bad about the action biting the dust. I guess you can take consolation in knowing that you actually tried your idea - a lot farther than most people get!

Glad your hand is working again. Good luck with the move and all!

never ever give up !

the mistaake you made was in caliber choice.

make it in the ever popular 45-70 and that whole group will beat a path to your door.
let them figure out how to soup it up - they
can blow theirs up doing your research for you.

and maybe the dreamers who actually think they are going to get a remington double rifle for $700 will decide to buy one.

or, you could give blaser and the other double bolt rifle guys some competition by offering it as a double rifle too ! now there's your ideal idea.

I'm sure your knowlegable on the subject, just wondering, after it was heated and quenched(martensite), did it get heated back up to temper or spherodize the grain structure? and not in the temp zone to cause temper embrittlement?

Sorry to hear about the blow up. Too bad you didn't have a video camera going. I was looking forward to seeing some pics.