In many years(ages really) many have search for the ideal DG cartridge. Many criterias can mention as far as caliber, bulletweight, energy and abillity in stoppingpower.
Some cartridges may have the energy like .378WEa, but lacks the caliber and bulletweight. Some cartridges may have caliber like a .50 S&W but lacks energy and bulletweight. etc etc.
When I am thinking of the ideal cartridge I think of "5"!. As I see it the ideal cartridge should meet these criterias to fulfill what a minimum DG cartridge should have:
1) 5000 ft/ibs.
2) .500cal.
3) 500grain.

Give me you thoughts.

IMO, various African govts. have pretty well defined at least the minimums for " true" DG cartridges...

This is a somewhat incomplete answre but:

A DGR for hunting thin-skinned DG or pachyderms can be from .375" up.

A 'stopper' for pachyderms should be .40+ and up, shooting a bullet constructed to penetrate to the brain or spine from any angle and driven fast enough to do so.

George

Jens

I am new to big bores and have absolutely noexperiance
With DG but I do own a .404 Jeffrey and a 458 Win mag both of which I feel meet
The DG requirements as DG cartridges even though one is of .423 diameter.
I also have a 9.3x62 and I am very impressed with it but it is not in the same class.

In my inexperienced opinion I feel a DG cartridge starts at a .375 H@H.

Cal30

Jens

You might add bullet construction.
A too soft bullet will not penetrate and a DGR is all about penetration of a large caliber bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
...
When I am thinking of the ideal cartridge I think of "5"!. As I see it the ideal cartridge should meet these criterias to fulfill what a minimum DG cartridge should have:
1) 5000 ft/ibs.
2) .500cal.
3) 500grain.

Give me you thoughts.

Jens,

There are a number of .500 caliber and .510 caliber cartridges used here on the AR forums that meet the above criteria.

A few things would definitely shorten the list, such as:
1) Your desired LOP?
2) Your desired barrel length?
3) Your action length preference?
4) Your action brand/type preference? And finally,
5) Your preference for a factory loaded CIP/SAAMI spec cartridge vs. a hand loaded (or specialty loaded) wildcat cartridge?

quote:

This is a somewhat incomplete answer but:A DGR for hunting thin-skinned DG or pachyderms can be from .375" up. A 'stopper' for pachyderms should be .40+ and up, shooting a bullet constructed to penetrate to the brain or spine from any angle and driven fast enough to do so.

Pretty much with George on this-
adding in the 9.3's-

I might add my personal "in close"(<30yds) choice for buff/ele is a 450 NE double-

(acknowledging- I have regularly stated that the all-around best double for the average non-PH is the 450-400)

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
In many years(ages really) many have search for the ideal DG cartridge. Many criterias can mention as far as caliber, bulletweight, energy and abillity in stoppingpower.
Some cartridges may have the energy like .378WEa, but lacks the caliber and bulletweight. Some cartridges may have caliber like a .50 S&W but lacks energy and bulletweight. etc etc.
When I am thinking of the ideal cartridge I think of "5"!. As I see it the ideal cartridge should meet these criterias to fulfill what a minimum DG cartridge should have:
1) 5000 ft/ibs.
2) .500cal.
3) 500grain.

Give me you thoughts.

None of the above.

A dangerous game cartridge is the one that will stop and kill ANY animal you are hunting.

The killing part can be done by practically any caliber reasonable selected.

The stopping part depends on bullet placement, and bullet penetration.

Both of which are dependent on who is firing the shot.

375 H&H or the like, a premium bullet, and a good shooter = DG success.

Great simple answer: the 450 Rigby or Dakota. No belt, no goofy Wbee-style shoulder.

Mine would shoot 500gr bullets 2470fps and group right at an inch at 100yds.

If you are not recoil conscious, the obvious answer is the 505 Gibbs in a bolt rifle, or the 500NE in a quality double.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
In many years(ages really) many have search for the ideal DG cartridge. Many criterias can mention as far as caliber, bulletweight, energy and abillity in stoppingpower.
Some cartridges may have the energy like .378WEa, but lacks the caliber and bulletweight. Some cartridges may have caliber like a .50 S&W but lacks energy and bulletweight. etc etc.
When I am thinking of the ideal cartridge I think of "5"!. As I see it the ideal cartridge should meet these criterias to fulfill what a minimum DG cartridge should have:
1) 5000 ft/ibs.
2) .500cal.
3) 500grain.

Give me you thoughts.

My Thoughts, My Opinion, some may differ........

To me, "DG Cartridge" is only 1/3 of the thought process. As I evolved to where I am today, the "Platform" is #1, or the Rifle itself. "Cartridge/Caliber", what can I fit into my DG Rifle of choice? Then of course of major importance, "Bullet", What is the very finest bullet for the mission upon which I embark?

1. Platform/Rifle
2. Cartridge/Caliber
3. Bullet

Lets look at the Platform or Rifle. Mind you Dangerous Game is the issue. Lets use a little analogy that maybe we can relate to........

Two legged, evil varmints! Well, an 8 inch 500 S&W with a proper bullet would just absolutely be devastating on two legged evil zombie types would it not? Of course. But then lets think about how well that big 4-5 lb heavy, long, overly powerful beast handles in this sort of situation. While it very well may put evil zombies down for the count, I think it might be a little cumbersome for fast handling work up front, and for follow on if needed? Me? I will take a fast handling 1911 45 ACP for this sort of job..........

Back in 2005 I had a little unintentional altercation with a hippo. At that time I was carrying a 24 inch 458 Lott Win M70, 10.5 lbs, 45.5 inches overall length...... Things slowed down, I had way to much time to think about this, and during this affair the rifle felt like a 10 ft long musket, unwieldy at best, heavy, and was just not the right tool for the job. Damn, there had to be something better for this sort of work? The affair ended at a long range 6 steps, and ended very well, one shot and it was over. But damn there had to be something better than this......... Something faster on target, something easy to handle and carry, shorter, lighter........?????

As soon as I returned home, I went to work on this, and it was not done overnight, it took awhile, but when I took one of the first 50 B&Ms to the field, with new bullets designed by JD Jones and myself at that time, I learned my little 8 lb 38 inch overall rifle in true .500 caliber did the job far far better than what I had originally envisioned. On this trip the little 50 B&M, based on a Win M70 WSM Short Action, using a 2.25 inch RUM case, driving a 510 gr Solid at 2100 fps was not only adequate for the mission, but it actually was a stopping DG Rifle, Cartridge, Bullet combination...... It fit the bill perfectly for what I wanted and needed in the field. Short. Fast. Light and easy to carry in comparison to everything I had handled before. Today we have taken it even further, and enhanced it ability even more with new and proper designed "Bullets" from both Cutting Edge and North Fork. Now we have an entire line of .500 caliber bullets for everything from impala to Elephant.

Taken it up a notch or two is the 500 MDM, a 2.8 inch .500 caliber cartridge. Larger cartridge, larger rifle. I have to use a Win M70 RUM action, long action. But keeping the barrel to 19 inches on my personal guns, brings it to 40-40.5 inches overall, and still keeping the weight to 8.25 lbs on average, depending on the wood of course, english is heavy, turkish slightly lighter, and so forth..... Having quite a bit of HP for the size, able to run 500s at 2400, 450s at 2550, and recently a new 525 gr at 2300 fps, still handles very well, and has more than enough to sort things out at very close ranges when called upon.......

I get bored! So today I am playing with a rather new 500 B&M, which is still .500 caliber, using a 2.5 inch RUM case, little brother to the 500 MDM. Still using the Win M70 RUM action, but changed the barrel contour to the lighter 50 B&M barrel contour, and going to 18 inches. Now we are down to 39 inches overall, and still maintaining around 8 lbs. About an inch or so longer than the 50 B&M with 18 inch barrel, about an inch or so shorter than the 19 inch 500 MDM. But, here is the kick, and one of the main reasons I shortened the case to 2.5 inches. Our new CEB NonCons..... Any that have a .650 nose projection I can insert the CEB tips in those, and run those through the 3.6 magazine! So What you Say? Well that little black tip in the end of that bullet buys me 150 fps impact velocity at 50 yards. With these bullets, that is rather substantial, and in my opinion worth the effort alone. A step up from the 50 B&M, slight step down from the 500 MDM, its in between, but carries that Talon Tip for its advantage.............

For me, my issues are all solved, I am in search of no more for what TO ME, is the Perfect DG Platform, perfect combination of Platform, Cartridge/Caliber, and perfect bullets for the mission at hand from CEB and North Fork.............. Now one can't really imagine just how much difference there is really in handling qualities, until you actually put your hands on one of these rifles for comparison. If you value your other rifles, do not even consider one of these..................

My 2 cents, and worth what you paid for it.................

Enjoy, great subject...........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
In many years(ages really) many have search for the ideal DG cartridge. Many criterias can mention as far as caliber, bulletweight, energy and abillity in stoppingpower.
Some cartridges may have the energy like .378WEa, but lacks the caliber and bulletweight. Some cartridges may have caliber like a .50 S&W but lacks energy and bulletweight. etc etc.
When I am thinking of the ideal cartridge I think of "5"!. As I see it the ideal cartridge should meet these criterias to fulfill what a minimum DG cartridge should have:
1) 5000 ft/ibs.
2) .500cal.
3) 500grain.

Give me you thoughts.

Jens,

Those are quite a good starting point.

I appreciate your use of US measurements and duly note the poetic repetition of "5".

There is not as much poetry to talk about 6780 joules being deing conveyed by 32 grams across a 1.27 cm diameter.

There is a difference, of course, between a cartridge that is also used for dangerous game and a cartridge whose sole raison d'etre is dangerous game, a "true dangerous game" cartridge.

I like your initial starting point of .5" diameter. Having spent my life with '4's and '3's, I can see the advantage in "5". However, once one adopts .5", the energy bar needs to be raised. The 505, 500Jeffrey, 500 A2, and 500 AccRel all cross the 6000 footpound level. One could bring this number in line with the poetry by using "impact energy" as the standard, thus, 5000 footpounds "impact energy" would fit those 500's just listed.

So for 'true dangerous game' I would suggest 8000 Joules, 12.7 mm, and 30 grams monolithic (or 35 grams leadcore) bullets.

Or:
6000 ftlbs
.5" diameter
500 grains

NB: lesser cartridges can be GREAT dangerous game rounds but they are more in the line of all around hunting cartridges. I like your list as a "true" DG cartridge (a so-called stopping cartridge). I will 'fudge' a little by trying out the 450-grain GSCustom in my 500AccRel Nyati. Yes, I'm already making compromises towards "all-around" in the .500" bores. I've just spent most of my hunting life using cartridges between 2600fps and 3100fps, with a turn towards 2600-2800fps in my older age.

I'm mostly a DR guy, and my largest DR is a 9.3x74r. I wouldn't call it a stopping gun, but I would not hesitate to use it as my primary for all the big five. I'm recoil sensitive and shoot the gun really well. However, I did have an itch for a true +.400 cal big bore.


So, I kept my eyes open for one and recently picked up a 416 Rem Mag in a bolt gun. I've shot the gun multiple times and, while not pleasant, it's not too tough on me. I'm bouncing back and forth on whether to get rid of it and get another DR or using it in Africa this year.

No question on the power of the 416 verses the 9.3 - Different leagues, for sure...

Isn't the cartridge irrelevant since it's the bullet that does the work? Bullet diameter, shape, mass, composition and velocity along with putting it in the right place in the animal seems to be more important to this armchair dangerous game hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
Isn't the cartridge irrelevant since it's the bullet that does the work? Bullet diameter, shape, mass, composition and velocity along with putting it in the right place in the animal seems to be more important to this armchair dangerous game hunter.

HEH...... I love it!.........

The Bullet does all the Heavy Lifting...........

To me, the cartridge is an "Engine", it provides the fuel to propel our properly designed bullet, for the mission at hand. That is it's purpose in life. The Platform, that merely holds the "Engine" and carries it arounds, awaiting launch! Of course the engine must have a proper amount of fuel in which to propel the chosen bullet at proper velocity to accomplish said mission......

M

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
Isn't the cartridge irrelevant since it's the bullet that does the work? Bullet diameter, shape, mass, composition and velocity along with putting it in the right place in the animal seems to be more important to this armchair dangerous game hunter.

Maybe you have a point.Maybe you have right. I always thought sitting here from my armchair the important factor too was what you hit them with!. A .14cal calhoon bullet in the heart of an elephant and it wil die being tickled when using full-auto mode. Never thought of that until now. Thanks for helping me out . Sometimes a reversed eksample stats the point.

So lesson is: It doesn´t matter what you hit them with so long you hit ém right. In theory a paperclip shot from a rubberband will do.

quote:

In theory a paperclip shot from a rubberband will do

That may be "stretching" things a bit too far so to speak but it does remind me of an old magazine article about loading phonograph needles into a 50 BMG case for commercial hunting of what was considered at the time to be the elusive but dangerous Nauga.

More seriously, I think it would be hard to argue that a relatively heavy, tough bullet in the half inch (plus or minus) diameter range poked into the right place on an animal at a good velocity is "enough". Name it whatever you want and load it into whatever rifle you prefer based on function, experience and tradition.

We spend a lot of time talking about things that probably don't make much difference to the animal.

I don't think that any one caliber, bullet weight or velocity is perfect for the wide range of animals that we call "dangerous game". The perfect rifle for leopard, lion or bear is vastly different than the perfect rifle for buffalo, hippo, rhino or elephants. The minimums expressed in the opening post will work well for elephant but are definitely not the best for leopard. Useable?, yes, but perfect?, definitely not.

465H&H

500 grains is a bit light in weight for a .510" bullet. 570 grains is more to my liking.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
500 grains is a bit light in weight for a .510" bullet. 570 grains is more to my liking.

True!.

What is I m trying to establish isn´t a strict dogmatic rule, but more a guiding minimum parameter where one could say..."Well I am about close to these figures". A 470Nitro comes very close with short of 1/1000s short in the caliber dept, but all other criteria is met = Close to ideal. A .476WR is also very close also.
It isn´t dificult to find calibers surpassing in all 3 criterias ofcouse. There is no question that heavy bullets, big caliber is a good place to start when defining a DG catridge.

I have a Mauser in .375H&H and .416 Rigby and a double rifle in .475 NE..

I believe these pretty much covers it.....if I wanted a real stopper I would choose a double in .577 NE over a .500 NE..

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I don't think that any one caliber, bullet weight or velocity is perfect for the wide range of animals that we call "dangerous game". The perfect rifle for leopard, lion or bear is vastly different than the perfect rifle for buffalo, hippo, rhino or elephants. The minimums expressed in the opening post will work well for elephant but are definitely not the best for leopard. Useable?, yes, but perfect?, definitely not.

465H&H

Saeed has it wrong, a relatively light cartridge can stop an animal intent on killing you if the shot is a perfect CNS hit, but there have been references to "stopping rifles" for 120 years since the advent of the 450NE, and for a reason, after decades of use it became obvious that a cartridge similar or more powerful than a 450NE was a reasonably reliable elephant stopper while those of lesser bullet weight, diameter and energy were not.

465H&H has it right. What is a great rifle for an elephant can't be a great rifle for a leopard.

I've settled on the 458wm as my elephant rifle, but would love to try a 500NE. Hippo hunted out of the water would be in the same league, same with rhino.

It's fun shooting buff up close with an express sighted double rifle, but a bolt 375H&H or 416 or 458wm, Lott with a low power scope with about 1x at the low end would all meet the definition of ideal, imo.

All else the 375H&H shines, partly because of it's broad utility.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I don't think that any one caliber, bullet weight or velocity is perfect for the wide range of animals that we call "dangerous game". The perfect rifle for leopard, lion or bear is vastly different than the perfect rifle for buffalo, hippo, rhino or elephants. The minimums expressed in the opening post will work well for elephant but are definitely not the best for leopard. Useable?, yes, but perfect?, definitely not.

465H&H

Saeed has it wrong, a relatively light cartridge can stop an animal intent on killing you if the shot is a perfect CNS hit, but there have been references to "stopping rifles" for 120 years since the advent of the 450NE, and for a reason, after decades of use it became obvious that a cartridge similar or more powerful than a 450NE was a reasonably reliable elephant stopper while those of lesser bullet weight, diameter and energy were not.

465H&H has it right. What is a great rifle for an elephant can't be a great rifle for a leopard.

I've settled on the 458wm as my elephant rifle, but would love to try a 500NE. Hippo hunted out of the water would be in the same league, same with rhino.

It's fun shooting buff up close with an express sighted double rifle, but a bolt 375H&H or 416 or 458wm, Lott with a low power scope with about 1x at the low end would all meet the definition of ideal, imo.

All else the 375H&H shines, partly because of it's broad utility.

I've had this discussion with Saeed many times before and he is decidedly wrong on the issue of Stopping rifles IMO. Yes, that CNS hit will stop an elephant but despite his insistence that danger doesn't exist on DG hunting adventures and that all one needs to do is to perfectly place that small caliber (.375) bullet squarely into the brain, real life experiences are often different, at least in what I've seen to date. I've dropped several elephant with a "brain shot" that closely missed but still resulted in the animal being "stopped". In the heat of the battle (now everyone needn't read anything more into the word "battle" than is intended here ), one would be very hard pressed to hit that brain perfectly, every time, under any and all circumstances. There is plenty video evidence of very experienced and proficient elephant hunting PHs, such as Buzz and Ivan, occasionally missing the brain on a charge, but still stopping the animal due to the use of a suitable caliber.

Yes the 375 is a great all around weapon. The key being "all around" which to some, makes it magical. To me, it makes it boring. Simply put, I'm not a "one gun" type of guy. I like variety and more over, I like specificity in matching a weapon to it's mission. Is that necessary? Of course not, but I get more enjoyment out of DG hunts with specific weapons to specific animal species. Will a 375 kill an elephant? Absolutely. But then again, you can drive a nail with a pair of vice grip pliers. You can also turn a screw or evan a bolt with vice grips, but there are tools better suited for each task. The hammer, screw driver, or wrench doesn't have the same versatility as the vice grips in this regard, but each are better suited for the respective tasks.

I've used the 375 quite a bit and on critters ranging from PG (small and large), brown bear, lion, leopard, and buffalo, but never fell in love with it like some have. For lion, it's very well suited. Same for the big bears. For leopard, I prefer a lighter caliber shooting a fast bullet, such as a 180gr pill in a 300 mag. Buffalo? ... at a bit of a distance I'd prefer a 416 but since I like to hunt up close in thick cover, I prefer a 500NE. The very same statement applies concerning elephant IMO.

All that said, I think the "criteria for a true Dangerous Game cartridge" is dependent on which DG animal is being pursued.

Dont listen to Saeed.He has never REALLY gone on a safari.His style of hunting is the style they do when hunting whitetails in North America.I can think of some here when I think of hunting Africa but Saeed is not one.

Todd, just bring your Blaser, and select an appropriate barrel :-)

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Dont listen to Saeed.He has never REALLY gone on a safari.His style of hunting is the style they do when hunting whitetails in North America.I can think of some here when I think of hunting Africa but Saeed is not one.

What crap is that ?????!
You have proved an idiot many times before, now you do it again.. Go inside, take your medication and lie down.. Maybe take on your helmet…

That being said I am not in agreement with Saeed. Much more with Todd.. There is no perfect caliber for all DG… And for sure you cannot rely on a CNS hit every time you shoot an elephant.. In thick cover and a charge its not always possible. Not for Bell, not for Saeed, not for anybody.. And its a proven fact that the bigger caliber/heavier bullet is MUCH more likely to turn a charge / stop him than is a 375… But for a perfect shot under good conditions and hitting the brain squarely - then a 375 will do perfect.. But so will a 308 or a 7 mm …

The biggest caliber over 9.3 that you can shoot fast and accurately under stress.
Practice and develop muscle memory.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I don't think that any one caliber, bullet weight or velocity is perfect for the wide range of animals that we call "dangerous game". The perfect rifle for leopard, lion or bear is vastly different than the perfect rifle for buffalo, hippo, rhino or elephants. The minimums expressed in the opening post will work well for elephant but are definitely not the best for leopard. Useable?, yes, but perfect?, definitely not.

465H&H

465HH........

Yeah, maybe..... But what works on buffalo does a damn good job on lion and bear... Lions... I might be a little scared of a damned lion, I like to hit a lion with fast big caliber bullets. One can drop weights on your favorite big bore buffalo rifle, say 458 to 350-400 grs at 2350+ makes an excellent lion load. I doubt I will hunt another lion unless opportunity knocks, but if I were to do so, then I think one of my 500s with a fast 335-350 NonCon would knock his lights out quick. Bear the same. Leopards, screw them, I hate leopards and I am about 99% sure I will never look at another, and if so, I got a good taxidermist, same story, fast 335 .500 caliber NonCon, lights out! Hit'em hard and big I say! Why dick around with a rat gun, damn things ain't rats!!!!!!!!

LOL.............

Michael

Hey Michael,

As you know, Beau and I will be hunting quite an assortment of DG and bait animals using our 458B&M rifles this coming September. So below are the animals on quota. Please define which bullet weights/loads, using CEB bullets, you think appropriate. While I have my own ideas, I always appreciated thoughts from the "B&M Man". Others may find this info helpful as well.

Tuskless Elephant - 450gr solid?
Hippo
Lion
Leopard
Croc
Assorted antelope baits

As you see, our DG runs the table. I have become a believer in the 458B&M capability as a one gun safari rifle, given different loads designed specifically for different species.

Thanks for all your help.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hey Michael,

As you know, Beau and I will be hunting quite an assortment of DG and bait animals using our 458B&M rifles this coming September. So below are the animals on quota. Please define which bullet weights/loads, using CEB bullets, you think appropriate. While I have my own ideas, I always appreciated thoughts from the "B&M Man". Others may find this info helpful as well.

Tuskless Elephant - 450gr solid?
Hippo
Lion
Leopard
Croc
Assorted antelope baits

As you see, our DG runs the table. I have become a believer in the 458B&M capability as a one gun safari rifle, given different loads designed specifically for different species.

Thanks for all your help.

One problem that I see with that solution is that all the different bullet weights and types would have to shoot to the same or nearly the same point of impact. Or you would have to run back to the range and resight your rifle. Would the animal stand around long enough for you to do that?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hey Michael,

As you know, Beau and I will be hunting quite an assortment of DG and bait animals using our 458B&M rifles this coming September. So below are the animals on quota. Please define which bullet weights/loads, using CEB bullets, you think appropriate. While I have my own ideas, I always appreciated thoughts from the "B&M Man". Others may find this info helpful as well.

Tuskless Elephant - 450gr solid?
Hippo
Lion
Leopard
Croc
Assorted antelope baits

As you see, our DG runs the table. I have become a believer in the 458B&M capability as a one gun safari rifle, given different loads designed specifically for different species.

Thanks for all your help.

One problem that I see with that solution is that all the different bullet weights and types would have to shoot to the same or nearly the same point of impact. Or you would have to run back to the range and resight your rifle. Would the animal stand around long enough for you to do that?

465H&H

Not if you use the CEB 450 grs solid and the 420 grs non-con in combination.. they will shoot to the same POI

465H&H-

Brilliant, just brilliant! This is not the first time you have made half-assed statements on AR, and probably won't be the last.

However, I do have some experience with what we are talking about and I have used my B&M for one shot kills in the past for things from Elephant to Zebra.

My B&M rifle is currently zeroed with irons, a red-dot and a scope. Each sighting device has a zero intended for specific loads, so, problem solved. Some of the different loads actually shoot to the same POI, as Michael has shown repeatedly (and which I have independently confirmed); see post by buffalo above. And the optics, in QR mounts, all return to acceptable zero. Amazing, yes? Please join us in the 21st century.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
465H&H-

Brilliant, just brilliant! This is not the first time you have made half-assed statements on AR, and probably won't be the last.

However, I do have some experience with what we are talking about and I have used my B&M for one shot kills in the past for everything from Elephant to Zebra.

My B&M rifle is currently zeroed with irons, a red-dot and a scope. Each sighting device has a zero intended for specific loads, so, problem solved. Some of the different loads actually shoot to the same POI, as Michael has shown repeatedly (and which I have independently confirmed; see post by buffalo above. And the optics, in QR mounts, all return to acceptable zero. Amazing, yes?

Lion Hunter,

I presented a potential problem and you a solution to that problem. Therefore, hunters are alerted to a problem and have at least one possible solution to the problem. Sounds like we both provided a service to them.

465H&H

Wow! so Saeeds and amatuer! what a bunch of horse hockey, I know for a fact that his buffalo count alone is damn close to 300, and that is a bunch by any standard, and we won't go into lions, lizards and pachyderms and Lord knows how many safaris over the years, and he is also one of the finest game shots I have ever seen...

I agree that bullet placement, bullet construction is above all first, and caliber is secondary..I believe the 9.3x62 and .375s are capable killers of elephant and that the 404 and 416 are about ideal, at least for me, and have proven themselves to be..

Elephant and DG are animals, flesh and blood, they die,they are not tanks, and as for stopping I would hate to bet my life on a missed brain shot with any caliber, and would be confident with a brain shot out of a 30-06 with a solid.

I have seen and have on tape buffalo that were shot 9 times on one ocassion and 13 times on another with 470 and 500 N.E. in both cases on the same hunt. Client sent me the tape..On another I witnessed a Buffalo take two shoulder shots and a nose shot with a .470 and I killed it off the end of my 450-400 barrel.

I truly believe in good shooting and am confident of any big bore thats legal and shooting a proper bullet. I also believe that some folks may be uncomfortable with lighter calibers as they are fearful of the animals they hunt, and lack confidence in there ability and truly believe that a 600 N.E. will save their bacon. I will add to that that not a lot of folks can actually pack one of those ultra heavy rifles all day in the African heat, and many can't shoot hit the target with one, and I have seen this more than a few times. I have listened to the strutten cocks mouthing off about their big bores at shows; on the internet; around the camp fire over a sundowner then mess up the next day on game.

At my age I am more comfortable with a 9.3x62 or my .375 H&H on DG than I am my old faithful 40 calibers, so realistically I'm better off with the lighter caliber with less recoil, and the ability to place a shot without flinching.

I also know there are those testosterone filled young bucks out there that can hit a dime at 25 yards and a quarter at 50 yards and a buffalo as far as they can see one and with the biggest gun they can lift, and thats a good thing..but how many hunters actully know their recoil limit. I know there are sure a lot of shooters that flinch pretty consistantly, and m everyone has had bad days shooting.

well said,i agree with u ATKISON,

I am enoug brave,and probaby will be called idiot after i say this,with my double in 9.3x74Ri would pull triger on any nimal on this earth,is it best one,no is not,but can be done in skill hands,there was OLD GERMAN who tested bullets for RWS couple decades ago,he harvested few hundred elef with 9.3,this days for new generation even when u hunt whitetails u nneed canons and magnums,i think in this times when we have more choice we ignore old proven calibres and using so many different calibres on every animal,its better have your main primary gun and shoot as much u can,than have 20 guns using occasionally,aagain u dont have to agree

quote:

....., and m everyone has had bad days shooting.

Congratulations, you have just made a three pointer for the "use enough gun" side while trying to score for opposing "use as little as is legal" side.

While an elephant at 25yds, or even at 15yds doesn't bring anything but awe and wonder, the same elephant coming at you at 7yds definitely bring with it some fear. If you aren't afraid of an elephant coming at you at 7yds you are a fool.

If you are having that bad day you wrote about that 458WM or 450NE or better might just save your hide when a lesser rifle will not.

Of course, if you choose to do your elephant hunting at stand off distance, even a 375H&H, while legal, is more than enough gun, as is the 9.3x62 or 74 in some countries.

I'll post a series of photos in another post on what a bigger rifle can do that a lesser rifle may not do.

JPK

Here is a series of photos of a cow bluff charging, or so we thought, at least until she crossed to within 7yds from the fellows to the right, out of sight.

The PH shot over her head to no effect, and then told me to stop her about when she was at the tree to her left, a little behind her in the frame where she is stopped. I missed the brain shot, shooting lower than required, but stopped her. 458wm, shooting 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2,135fps for a little more than 5,000lbs' of energy.

The PH and I both got in heart lung shots after she turned which killed her within about 40yds or so.

She is coming:


Still coming. See the hate in her eyes?


Stopped by 500gr of solid measuring .458" in diameter at MV 2,135fps and energy of a little more than 5,000lbs'. My rifle barrel and back to the left in the photo:


Turning to leave after both barrels. I am reloading, the cameraman has wisely moved behind me:


Follow on shots. I got three into her boiler room, Rich tried for her brain with his second barrel and missed, then got two into her boiler room. My rifle, with ejectors, was faster:
t of sight:


Reloading and speaking with Rich Tabor, PH:


Cameraman Dave Hulme tells us he needs to change his shorts, earning a laugh:


Tense follow up:


Rich puts the tracker between us to follow the blood, its too dense to watch for the ele and keep an eye on the trail, But he has seen her and she is down:


Dead as a stone:


It was the tracker, Oriah, who she had her sights on, he was to the right in the charge photos. He didn't bolt, but then, none of had anywhere to go. We'd been dodging eles in the lowvelt riverine brush all day, but this spot was tight, except in the little opening we took refuge in.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hey Michael,

As you know, Beau and I will be hunting quite an assortment of DG and bait animals using our 458B&M rifles this coming September. So below are the animals on quota. Please define which bullet weights/loads, using CEB bullets, you think appropriate. While I have my own ideas, I always appreciated thoughts from the "B&M Man". Others may find this info helpful as well.

Tuskless Elephant - 450gr solid?
Hippo
Lion
Leopard
Croc
Assorted antelope baits

As you see, our DG runs the table. I have become a believer in the 458B&M capability as a one gun safari rifle, given different loads designed specifically for different species.

Thanks for all your help.

LionHunter

Of course the simple thing to do would be to use the 450/420 #13 Combo.... 450#13 Solid and its matching 420 #13 HP, same POI with both bullets.......

I would however, and we will, take a look at the 250 Socom and see where POI is for it. This past July I used my 458 B&M, 18 inch gun for everything from Impala to Elephant, using 2 bullets, 450 #13 Solid at a tad over 2200 fps, and the 250 Socom at 2900 fps. My rifle sighted the 250 Socom 1 inch high at 50 yards, the 450 #13 Solid was center to 1/4 inch high at 50 yards.

I never changed sights, scopes, nothing, just pick the bullet for the job at hand......... If we got lucky, the 250 Socom at 2900 would knock the lights out on leopard, and I shot a nice croc with it, along with 12+ plains game including zebra wildebeest and such. All broadside shots with the 250 passed completely through zebra and wildebeest, in fact, I never recovered any of the 250 Socoms until I broadside a cow buffalo in Zimbabwe with it.

You know, I would have to bust that lion with a 250 Socom at 2900 fps! Cats really hate velocity, and bore size! Might back that up however with the mighty 420 Raptor however! Just to be on the safe side.........

This croc took a neck shot with the 250 Socom at 27 yards....... Never moved.......... After some time however he was still alive, eyes moving, jaws and such... Since I did not want to "literally" blow his head completely off, they brought the camp 22 long rifle, in which I put the muzzle just behind the skull and turned one loose into his brain, lights out permanently.



While hunting croc along the lake we woke up this hippo about a 100 or so yards inland. Loaded with the 250 Socom I did not have a chance to change loads, he presented a perfect brain shot at 17 yards, at 2900 fps the brains squirted out both ears for 6 feet in both directions...... Just for good measure I put a 450#13 Solid through the point of the shoulder in which we recovered all the way in the rear opposite side... Good penetration..... Also dead straight.........



At 11-12 yards on my knees I was just lining up for frontal when this elephant spooked, took off running from my left to right, I dropped immediately to the heart and put a 450 #13 Solid through his heart, 40 yards or so he was down and out....... Bullet exited.... DEAD STRAIGHT PENETRATION........ Nice big cut out .458 caliber holes both sides, big hole in the heart, far larger than .458 caliber.......






Incredible little rifle, and with it in particular, it was simply pick and choose the right bullet for the mission at hand.

Michael

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JPK:
Here is a series of photos of a cow bluff charging, or so we thought, at least until she crossed to within 7yds from the fellows to the right, out of sight.

The PH shot over her head to no effect, and then told me to stop her about when she was at the tree to her left, a little behind her in the frame where she is stopped. I missed the brain shot, shooting lower than required, but stopped her. 458wm, shooting 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2,135fps for a little more than 5,000lbs' of energy.


Why do many still tote energy figurs? It meaningless junk science!

If energy was a determination of killing potential or in this case stopping potential, big bore pistols would not kill the way they do.