Nothing Earth shattering here just an observation. We were out doing some casual shooting yesterday and decided to see how some 420 Gr. hardcast flat nose would do on a tree. The tree was broken off at about 5' the rest was about 10-12" in diameter. Shot the Barnes 300 gr. hollowpoint and 405 Rem. into it no exit. 405 was doing about 1750-1800 fps. Next the 420 hardcast at 1800+. No exit. We then let a couple go though a 330 Dakota. 210 TSX and 210 Nolser Part. You could see bitts of tree fly 30-40 yds behind the tree. Large exit holes. I'm pretty sure my Lott would have exited. Again just an observation, but not too impressed.

Try again with a 550 grain Jae-Bok Youngs Crater Bullets

http://www.competitor-pistol.com/jb%20home.html

low sd and medum speed .. means broken up non penetration bullets!

Boom: Those look like very interesting bullets. Too bad the Marlins put such a limit on overall cartridge length.

Another **** 45-70 thread. There is a pklace for this stuff, Lever guns and Single Shot forums.

45-70 Aint a big bore, I know, I hace one.

Keith

Nah -- use monometal bullets in your .45-70 and you'll get the same results. Trees are a hard medium.

A .303 FMJ will penetrate a tree that small.
No biggee.

Was going to use it for a meat packing gun, now I'll pop the scope off whatever large bore rifle I'm useing. 45-70 will stay where it should be, a short range Deer gun.

MTM, sound like you have it well figured out. My thoughts exactly!

I made the mistake of shooting an elk with those 405 doing 1800. Pancake and inches of penetration.

I guess if one is hunting and killing trees it matters. It fun to shoot wood but really has no relationship to game.

I personnaly perfer my chain saw for wood killing.

The 45-70 is awsome at killing DWG's (Dangerous Water Jugs) and trees and wet newspapers

The 45-70 is a lot more than a deer rifle. You can load the same bullets and power level as the 450 marlin, a round introduced for any N. American big game, including moose and bear. The appeal of the 45-70 for me is nostalgia and fun, but like the 404J, it will get the job done if you know what you are doing. The right load and good shot. And if not, it is not some inherent problem with the round. It is your error.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
The 45-70 is awsome at killing DWG's (Dangerous Water Jugs) and trees and wet newspapers [/QUO
TE]
Had a bunch of DWGs along and the 420 hard casts did good on them, no complaints. I live and hunt in the West so serious hunting with lever guns is out for me anyway. I just like them. No intentions of selling it just a little suprised it couldn't shoot through a little tree. I know this realy isn't the place for this post, just thought I might get some good/funny responses.

The Rem. 405 grain is designed to expand at trapdoor velocity. Push it faster and it will perform decently at longer ranges after it slows down. Push it fast and hit something close, well, you found out. There are tougher bullets out there that can be chosen but nothing makes it a DGR.

Had the similar results with a 500 A2 shooting 525gr gas checked hard cast flat points into a 8" diameter choke cherry tree, NO EXITS! Muzzle velocity was ~ 2150 fps. 535gr Woodleigh shot it down in three rounds (okay two of us gave the tree a push after that three round thrashing but that was all it took) with complete and I mean complete penetration.

In my misspent youth,
I cut down some prety big trees with a marlin 1865 and 350 grain hornady bullets.
...tj3006

Last year I broke the front shoulder of a Cape buffalo with a .458 Magnum, 450 grain monolithic solid, 2250 fps muzzle velocity...and a Texas heart shot.

Now if I used a 45-80, cut the muzzle velocity 300 fps, make the bullet lighter with less sectional density, and make it softer, would it still do that?

Who cares?

Why would anyone want to try it?

I use my Marlin 45-70 for fun and a short "tent gun". I use the 430 gr hard cast Buffalo Bore loadings and they are stout! I just try to sneek up on pigs with it. FUN! It is a good open sight practice weapon.
I have better weapons for anything that might bite back!

I love these 45-70 discussions. They could only be better if PHC claimed to have used one.

My 450 marlin (330cast hp/2100)will shoot though a 10"birch tree make it shake too Clint

These 45-70 threads proove only one thing. People who own them, are misguided about their power, nothing more!

IMO, the fault is two fold! #1 is it has a bore size of .450, and groove size of .458, and that leads folks to think they have a big bore rifle. The size of the bore is not all that is required to make a cartridge a real big bore.

#2 is the rifles chambered for cartridges like the 45-70 being called "BRUSH rifles" which many take to mean it will penetrate brush to hit a target behind it. That is not the case the name was because it was a short ronge rifle meant to be used to hunt brush or timber areas where the range is always short.

There is no such thing as a "BRUSH BUCKER"! Any bullet that hits anything before it get to it's intended target will be deflected. Penetration is not all that is needed to make a viable DGR, but the whole package of balistics from primer to the othter side of the traget.

Shooting through trees doesn't prove anything.
but shooting theorugh a tuff hide, through the bones of a shoulder, or hip, and still holding together,and reaching vital organs while expanding a bullet to do max fdamage to all muscle, bone, and tissue on the way through to the hide on the off side. Anything past that is wasted, except for a blood trail. IMO, it all boils down to do you want to trail them or take pictures of the dead animal.

...........The 45-70 rifles are fun rifles in all configurations, but will never be a true big bore rifle in every sense of the word.



...........

I've had good success on Quercus agrifolia with my Blaser S2 chambered in 45-70 Super.

The .45-70 was never meant to be a killer of African dangerous game. But to call a Marlin fed heavy handloads with good bullets nothing more than a close-range deer gun reflects either bias or ignorance.

Fun with big tough bullets!
I do not own a .45-70, but some of my friends do and here is an excerpt from a post on Leverguns.com:
"Then Ricky and I shot a 5/8" steel plate at 50 yards. The 405 Punch bullets at 2000 fps leave a huge dent but the 430 grain Punch at 1850 fps went THROUGH it! The 430 has more penetration and more smack than any other .458 bullet I have experienced at velocities at or below 2000 fps. The paper ballistics clearly do not tell the whole story. The 405 Punch at 2000 fps shows ME of 3596, Momentum of 115 and KO of 52. The 430 gr yields 3356 ME, Momentum 115 and KO 52. In spite of less ME and the same #'s for Mm and KO the 430 gr has a significant advantage!

In order to get that "magical" .300 sectional density that is equated with optimal penetration for caliber diameter, Kelye is making some 440 grainers and Grizzly Cartridge says they will safely run at 1900 fps. This is the very best penetration from the 45-70 and moreso with a 45-90 or 450 NE!"
BTW, this was done with a Miroku 1886 and is not recommended with a Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
The .45-70 was never meant to be a killer of African dangerous game. But to call a Marlin fed heavy handloads with good bullets nothing more than a close-range deer gun reflects either bias or ignorance.

If you're saying its a long range Deer gun or good choice for Elk Moose, have at it. Have no intention of argueing the capabilities of this round. For me its a fun/screwing around gun, use yours how you want.

quote:

Originally posted by MTM:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
The .45-70 was never meant to be a killer of African dangerous game. But to call a Marlin fed heavy handloads with good bullets nothing more than a close-range deer gun reflects either bias or ignorance.

If you're saying its a long range Deer gun or good choice for Elk Moose, have at it. Have no intention of argueing the capabilities of this round. For me its a fun/screwing around gun, use yours how you want.

mtm..you are obviously lacking in reading comprehension skills as well as being bias and/or ignorant

I have a Miroku 1886 SRC and have driven 405HC bullets at 2180 fps-mv from it.These were chronoed in front of a good friend of both mine and MTM's, who is NOT, btw, a BSer or ...ignorant...

I would expect very good performance on a Grizzly, Moose or Elk, but, only at short ranges. I DO consider this a good "protection" gun and have packed mine in Grizzly country.

The bullet TYPE here is the real variable and that should be more carefully considered.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I have a Miroku 1886 SRC and have driven 405HC bullets at 2180 fps-mv from it.These were chronoed in front of a good friend of both mine and MTM's, who is NOT, btw, a BSer or ...ignorant...

I would expect very good performance on a Grizzly, Moose or Elk, but, only at short ranges. I DO consider this a good "protection" gun and have packed mine in Grizzly country.

The bullet TYPE here is the real variable and that should be more carefully considered.

MTM said
Was going to use it for a meat packing gun, now I'll pop the scope off whatever large bore rifle I'm useing.45-70 will stay where it should be,a short range Deer gun.

Dewey,
I agree with what you have to say about the 45-70..
MTM may not be ignorant(I'll have to take your word for that), but this thread started by MTM is ignorant..

Low wall, stick your opinion where the sun don't shine. I live in B.C. too, in fact in Langley and will be more than happy to meet in person for a discussion.

Don't know how this thread got going sideways, As I said in my opening post this was just an observation. I was a little shocked the the all penetrating heavy hard cast bullet wouldn't shoot through a fairly thin tree. Totally unscientific and meaningless test. I like the 4570 for what it is, sorry if feathers are being ruffled when I say its a short range Deer gun. If you like it for long range or heavy animals fine, I have better guns for those perposes.

If you want penetration just use different bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by MTM:
Don't know how this thread got going sideways,

Then you haven't read any of the previous 45/70 threads in the Big Bore section.

Anything 45/70 related belongs in the same category as "Conversations with your friends about Sex, Religion and Politics". As with any of those - they are fun until someone starts taking it seriously then and

Oh and I have a Marlin 45/70 and two Marlin 450s and love them BUT I brought my 600OK and 416WBY to Africa.
I think they are great close-medium range deer/caribou/elk guns, would be perfect for black bear and probably just fine for any other North American game.
Like you, I was initially a little surprised by your results then reminded myself that I've had similar results on trees while impressive results on game.

There have been a LOT of big animals killed and even stopped with one shot with the 400 gr. slugs from a .45-70 at 1800-1900 fps. Both Phil Shoemaker and another famous Alaskan bear guide, Ed Stevenson, have used rifles like mine, same custom sights and loads for stopping really big Grizzlies.

Ed Stevenson, who is somewhat older than I am has lived in the remote Alaskan bush for decades and he reported getting FIVE FEET of penetration on a very large bear he shot with the 405 Kodiak bullet. These two are guys whose word I trust and what I see happening here is more the effects of the "hydrostatic" shock in wood that a highspeed bullet from Frank's .330Dak. would cause; this would tend to blow out chunks of wood AHEAD of the bullet as the shock wave preceded it through the stump, IMO.

The straightline penetration of a heavy hardcast bullet is USUALLY more dependable than that from any expanding bullet and the .45-70HC slugs, while slow, I grant you, are going to go through a Moose's cheast cavity and break any bones in their path. Given that Moose and even Elk have much heavier bones than Grizzlies, I am pretty confident that my loads, with Bullet Barn 405s, at 1900 fps-mv. will do the job as well as my .338s, 9.3s or .375h&Hs will, at close range...as you know, MTM, I am gettin' so damm old that I cain't see for them longrange shots no more.................

Low Wall,MTM or Mike, btw, is among the most consistently friendly, amiable and nicest guys I know and I have known him for almost 20 years. He is a good sized lad, very fit and strong and it is probably a good plan not to get him riled. You CAN take my word for all of this as I am a wise and mellow old fellow and hate to see conflict here, peace, bro' and all that stuff.

gbanger,

at least three people have taken Cape Buffalo with one-shot kills here on the forum. By definition that makes it a Dangerous Game Round. There are also ZERO recorded failures to kill buffalo, or hunters being injured or killed by buffalo wounded with the round. It may be the only cartridge here with such an unblemished record in Africa.

It may be lacking in the esthetics department, but it is a matter of 50+ years record that it is highly regarded in the NW as a bear stopper. Not just a bear killer, but a bear stopper.

I hunted Cape Buffalo ten months ago with CM Safaris in Zimbabwe. I would have no compunctions about hunting buffalo with an 1886 or 1895 in 45-70 with appropriate loads.

Rich

At the risk of being Tarred and Feathered, I will say that at 100 yards and under, with the correct bullet, I would use the 45/70 on any and all game, without worry except for elephants.

I would shoot an elephant with a 45/70, but I would take the same cautions that I would if using a handgun.

I KNOW that a 44 Mag with the right bullet will penetrate to the brain on a cow elephant with a side brain shot...

And I KNOW that a 475 Linebaugh will penetrate to the brain on a bull elephant from the front or the side....

I see no reason why a 45/70 with a proper bullet would not do as well....

But the angle and the shot would have to be "right"...

Just because it COULD be done, does not mean it SHOULD be done...

If I had a choice I would much prefer a 9,3x74R on elephant vs a 45/70...

I like my Guide Gun and will continue to use it but I this is the last 4570 anything outa me. Lesson learned.

I'vr shot 45/70 level hard and softer castloads from my 458wm at a dead elep's head to est penetration. The soft casts were useless, but the hard casts, which broke, penetrated less than half of a 458wm's, but not all that far behind what is repurted to be a great penetrator, the 375H&H 300gr round nose Woodleigh solids.

My take is that a 45/70 with hard cast bullets that will stay together would be weak, but fine medicine for a buff. But no damn good at all for eles. Just can't have the bullet coming apart for eles.

JPK

Rich: Three one-shot kills on buff with hard-loaded .45-70s? That's not possible with anything less than 5,000 foot pounds of mathematically computed kinetic energy. It says it somewhere right here on this here forum ...