quote:

Originally posted by Hans-A:
Sorry if I opened some wounds with my first post, but I did shoot my .45-90 into a gelatin blocks that a guy had set up at the range when he was testing his .458 Win Mag and mine at 1280 fps went deeper.
Hans.

I always knew that J. A. Hunter secretly used black powder in his .500 doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Hans-A:
Sorry if I opened some wounds with my first post, but I did shoot my .45-90 into a gelatin blocks that a guy had set up at the range when he was testing his .458 Win Mag and mine at 1280 fps went deeper.

Hans.

Were you using EXACTLY the same bullets? Solids always go deeper than expanding bullets .. and if you had used the same bullets, the 458 would either destroy the bullets faster due to speed (which is "better" bullet performance) or driven a solid deeper ...

So, no, slower isn't better, OF COURSE.. oh CRAP, a dropped a 600gr hard cast bullet off my desk and it drilled to the center of the earth ..... if slower was better ...NOT

DWright

Well I don't think I have too many "facts" concerning the 45/70s and penetration. As there have been many bullets tested over the years, but no real test that would prove or disprove the garrett test. I have some upcoming tests to do, might just incorporate something along those lines to see.

Hans

No surprises with good penetration on those big Sharps cartridges on buffalo, moose and such, regardless of velocity. Especially with a 730 gr bullet in .50!

I am not sure you opened any wounds, but I think there have been some extremely heated discussions in the past concerning 45/70, before my time even. So for some, like Jeffe, it's old news, and more of the same. There are lot's of opinions out there concerning this, and a lot of die hards that it is hard to accept that the coveted old 45/70 ain't quite as big and terrible as what they thought.

I do not doubt your results with your 45/90 and the 458 in gelatin. But it all depends on the type bullet being used in both cartridges/rifles? I would venture to say that if the test was with exactly the same bullet, then the 458 would have done better? Solid bullet technology has been overlooked for a 100 yrs in favor of expanding bullet technology, with good reason. There has in the past been little use of solids when compared to expanding, so most efforts have gone to expanding. Today, we are seeing a big trend and lot's of money being spent on new solid bullet technology. I think it started with Jack Carters FN solid many years ago, but other than some smaller bullet makers, like GS Custom, it took a long time for the big boys to jump on board. Today it appears that nearly all the big bullet manufacturers have jumped on the Flat Meplat bandwagon in some form or another.

It took me a long time to come around also. I did not come to my conclusions until 2006, about a year or so behind Barnes when they started introducing the banded solid. The light bulb did not come on for me until I needed a proper bullet for my .500 caliber rifles.

I am not sure that any one individual has a complete and total understanding of some of the finer points of solid penetration, I know I am still learning a lot. As stated many many times, I very firmly believe that NOSE PROFILE is everything---all other factors take a back seat to NOSE PROFILE, including other factors are SD--Velocity--caliber--proper twist rate--construction--material and more.

Recently I tested some solids in 9.3 caliber, 320 FMJ and 286 Barnes Banded.
I had high hopes for the Barnes of course, had a small flat meplat, it should have done very good! However, I was surprised at how poor it performed. The meplat is very small, bullet is not stable during terminal penetration and during the last 20% of total penetration starts off course, turns around backwards or sideways in the medium. Another big surprise, the 320 Woodleigh FMJ RN burns thru the penetration box like going thru hot butter!!! Two different velocities were tried with this bullet, 1870 fps and 2300 fps---both penetrated 62-63 inches of test medium, 2X6 back of the box, both dead straight line penetration. The 2300 fps continued on for 20 yds behind the box and stuck itself into my concrete retaining wall, dead straight! The 1870 fps bullet was never found???? These smaller caliber FMJ by Woodleigh have a different nose profile than some of those in the larger calibers, this is what I attribute this wonderful penetration to. I also ordered another box of those last week, rather expensive, but worth it!

So this goes to prove, all flat nose bullets are not created equal--all round nose FMJ bullets are not created equal! Nose profile is everything. Change that nose profile even slightly and everything about the terminal performance can change DRASTICALLY! Even a change that you cannot see with the eye can make a big change on the way the bullet performs.

We all know that the base of a bullet is it's driver while it is in the air, and is all important to accuracy, but the very second that solid hits the target the nose takes over and it becomes a "front end drive" for terminal penetration!

I am one of the biggest proponents of using solid bullets of probably anyone you will ever speak with. In years past when in the field for buffalo, elephant, hippo, the load out had solids, for buff it was expanding, then the solids, for the other heavies, solids all the way. During a test mission on plains game in 2006 with one of the prototype .500s I used a little solid for backup on everything, as I had done my homework and tested the bullets being used, but never had they been field tested at the velocities I could run them too, so I figured solid backup would be good! As it turned out my homework was very good, all expanding bullets performed exactly as they had been tested, and performed excellent at the velocity I ran them to. My problems came with the RN solids I was using! They would enter one end and come out the side, or up, hell sometimes I got concerned one might turn around like a boomerang and hit me! Since then I sorted out straight line penetration without issue with new designed FN bullets in all the .500s. But this little trip give me cause to rethink my load outs for all hunting. I now use expanding bullet up front, followed by good solids for near everything, even thin skinned game. And it works! Regardless I shoot until the problem is 100% solved, or cannot shoot anymore. So backup with proper solids makes good sense to me with all sorts of hunting.

Good expanding bullets are great for that first shot, induce great trauma, shock, and energy transfer to target, but if said target is not 100% mobilized by that carefully placed first shot, then you may be looking at having to drive that same expanding bullet up something big from the rear, consider moose, elk, kudu, eland, and even a big bear---will your favorite expanding bullet drive from the rear end to the vitals of such an animal? A good proper solid will! Something to ponder I believe! Give me some good solids for backup!

Ok I think I have droned on enough for the morning.

Michael

Michael,

Stated like a true Southern gentleman!
Nice to hear a response without the anxiety.
This specific 45-70 discussion typically sets off a firestorm of debate.
Facts are appreciated!

EZ

Jeffe

Good thing that bullet did not hit your big toe! Can you imagine what shape you would be in, with the shoulder injury and now your toe falling off because of that bullet hitting it???

Why don't you be a little more careful over there!

Michael

I have stated already I had some test work planned. Well decided this morning just get off my ass and go do some. Have to build a box of mix, get it nicely soaked and load up some test bullets/loads I want to look at.

Currently I have in mind some personal data I want to gather, 1 is Barnes new 330 gr FN Solid designed for the Socom--I like it with the 458 B&M to go with lighter bullet loads--need to test penetration. Another is new tests 500 Woodleigh FMJ in 458 Lott, along with the 500 Barnes FN. Will also attempt some of these at very low velocity to prove the point.

If you guys have something in mind let me know. I may even be able to shoot some this afternoon if I get the box set up and soaked proper.

Michael

Hi Michael,I have a suggestion for a test.Take the following four solids,a new Hornady,Woodleigh fmj,Barnes banded,new Woodleigh monometal.Select the following five cartridges,375H&H,416 Rigby,458 Lott,470NE,500NE.Choose three different penetration mediums of different hardness and humidity.Shoot the four diffrent solids from each rifle in the most popular bullet weight for that cartridge.Reduce the velocity by 150fps and shoot them again.Make a easy to read table to sum up the results,comparing inches of penetration at both velocities for each solid etc...list the sectional densities for each bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by MTM:
Nothing Earth shattering here just an observation. We were out doing some casual shooting yesterday and decided to see how some 420 Gr. hardcast flat nose would do on a tree. The tree was broken off at about 5' the rest was about 10-12" in diameter. Shot the Barnes 300 gr. hollowpoint and 405 Rem. into it no exit. 405 was doing about 1750-1800 fps. Next the 420 hardcast at 1800+. No exit. We then let a couple go though a 330 Dakota. 210 TSX and 210 Nolser Part. You could see bitts of tree fly 30-40 yds behind the tree. Large exit holes. I'm pretty sure my Lott would have exited. Again just an observation, but not too impressed.

The 45/70 softened up the tree trunk.

El Deguello,

LOL. Ich trinke alle Arten von Wassersport LOL einige make me Kreuzblick und einige schwindlig LOL.

I only just got on this monster I'm hunting and pecking on about a year ago and I have found some very good and valuable information on it for the things I like doing, but I have also found that some Grizzly's are a lot easer to share comments with LOL.

Hans

Hey Guys I did some test work today, nothing earth shattering, but I have taken it all to a new thread and intend to discuss those issues over on that thread. Here

http://forums.accuratereloadin...791098911#4791098911

Michael

Rich, I'm no 45/70 hater. I've had a Guide Gun. I really like my XLR with the 24" barrel and XS ghost rings. I at first, thought that it would be too long, but because of the size of the receiver, it is the same overall length of a typical 22" short action bolt gun. I also have an original Springfield trapdoor, so I will always have the cartridge on hand as long as I shoot anything.