the hornady load book says you can get 2200 fps with there 500 grain bullets out of a 24" barrel can that velocity actually be reached. i ask because this seems so close to the lott at 2300 fps unless the lott actually gets more. i already have a 416 ruger but have always wanted a 458 and wondering which way to go.

M70 Winchesters

22" & 24" Barrels

Hornady 500 gr. DGS (Solid) used.
Hornady cases
Fed215GM Primers
Temp. 74 Degs.
5 shot strings
12 feet from muzzle

Charge- 72.5 Grs. AA2230
22" Bbl.
FPS- 2150,2159,2143,2147,2157
ES- 16, SD- 6, Avg.- 2150

24" Bbl.
FPS- 2209,2207,2218,2203,2192
ES- 26, SD- 9.4, Avg.- 2205


Charge- 76.3 Grs. H335 *Load I use*
Components the same as above except powder used.
Testing for both the same day.

22" Bbl.
FPS- 2147,2160,2154,2154,2150
ES- 13, SD- 4, Avg.- 2153

24" Bbl.
FPS- 2171,2195,2203,2185,2189
ES- 32, SD- 12, Avg.- 2188

Nice data ....
500gr DSX 2200fps = 5400#s energy ...
tough to beat

Go with a Lott if you want more velocity. 2,300 with a 500 gr bullet is easy with no pressure concerns. You're pushing the top end to get more than 2,100 with a Win Mag and it will possibly be overpressure if you are in a hot environment.

Or you can just drop down to a better constructed 450 gr. bullet and still get all the penetration you could possibly want and get an easy 2250 fps. without pressure concerns.

Most folks over look compaction with the .458 IMO..If I wanted a 45 caliber for buffalo or any of the big 5, I don't want to go to a 450 gr. bullet or load to absolute max..thus the reason I don't really care for the .458 Win and prefer to shoot the Lott and load It down with a 500 gr. bullet at about 2200 FPS, without compaction. The Lott needs no justification the Win. does, as one can see from all its many posts..Not saying the .458 won't work on the Big 5, it will, but the Lott is what it should have been to start with.. just saying the Lott is the better option..

Note of clarification.

Loads listed are under Hornady listed maximum.
No load showed compression.

The old standards, 450 Nitro Express & 470 Nitro Express
As normally used in the double rifles that they are normally regulated
for, the 450 with a 480gr. And the 470 with the 500gr.
The .458 loaded with 500 grain bullet within loading standard pressures
and limits offer superior weight and sectional density to the 450 NE
And superior sectional density to the 470 NE.

Other than an individuals preference to bolt actions or doubles.
Out of the three I listed, the Nitro's in factory form, that must stay within
a certain velocity range to maintain regulation and a .458 loaded within acceptable
Pressure limitations, the .458 is a superior round.

Well I respectively suggest that any .458 load that has a muzzle velocity of 2100 FPS is compacted by 6 to as much as 12% or perhaps more. So exactly what does HOrnady have to say about the specific "Load Density" of your loads.

Truly the 458 Win. is not, and never has been an efficient caliber..Will it kill an elephant, of course it will, and its a do-able round but lets not call it something its not and never will be..Lets just call it a pretty good round when handloaded, but in the heat of Africa it has has some problems, and its always been held in suspicion by some and not others. All I can say is don't load it too hot and don't leave on the hood of your bakie..

Other than that we will probably have to agree to disagree..

All statements and data I have made and written are based on tested
fact.

Not speculation.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well I respectively suggest that any .458 load that has a muzzle velocity of 2100 FPS is compacted by 6 to as much as 12% or perhaps more. So exactly what does HOrnady have to say about the specific "Load Density" of your loads.

Truly the 458 Win. is not, and never has been an efficient caliber..Will it kill an elephant, of course it will, and its a do-able round but lets not call it something its not and never will be..Lets just call it a pretty good round when handloaded, but in the heat of Africa it has has some problems, and its always been held in suspicion by some and not others. All I can say is don't load it too hot and don't leave on the hood of your bakie..

Other than that we will probably have to agree to disagree..

Check the lion charge in the African Hunting forum: failure to extract a .416 Ruger. A straight-sided high pressure round. Why risk performance like that when there is an easily obtainable alternative.

The poor old .458 win mag. Despite all its years of service, it still falls prey to the tendency of man to judge everything by the least common denominator.
All reason fails despite new powders, chronographs and legion of witnesses. We fear the African sun on a 60k psi 458 with ar2230 or h335 but laugh at the Texas sun and a 60k + psi 7x57 using h414.
I would point out that the most dangerous game is being hunted with a compressed load of h1000 at +65k psi and being baked in the sun of the hottest places on earth. The only comments I know of concerning that load is that it is very effective.
No doubt the Lott is more capable of 2150 or 2200 at a lower peak pressure than the 458wm can claim. Just not sure that is relevant information to cast fair doubt on the WM version of the 458.

The 458 Winchester has killed many animals, but, I prefer a minimum velocity of 2400 in any rifle I hunt with, regardless of caliber.

Fury,
Your post is elegant, but your last sentence is the crutch of this post, and what Ive been trying to get across. Not Applicable to a DG rifle in the heat of Africa? Why would that not be relevant, and given a choice? I have to respectfully disagree..

thanks for all the input ,i have chosen to go with the lott.now to see which rifle fits in my hands the best , i am thinking used ruger or maybe a new CZ thanks again.i dont know why the lott doesnt come in stainless. thanks again

data collected 06 06 2017

75 degree day

chronograph ---lab radar--

458 win mag

rifle
zastava remington 798
26 inch barrel

aa2230 powder 500
grain solid hornady DGS
brass new winchester

70 gn 2142-- 2139
71 gn 2179--2165
72 gn 2188---2183
73 gn 2217---2205
74 gn 2230---2237
75 gn 2261---2264---2255---2264
76 gn 2279---2281
77 gn 2304---2307
78 gn 2328---2344

no excessive pressure at max powder
but some what flat primer
heavy recoil

compressed loads above 73 grains

215 federal primer all lit well

gun out of box 9.6 pounds

DATA 06-06 2017
remington 700 21 1/2 inch barrel
[ruger #1 take off]
458 win mag -- custom culling rifle w 10 round bottom clip
trigicon reflex sight

10.3 # rifle

bullet 500 gn hornady solid dxs

powder aa 2230
brass new winchester
federal 215 primer
lab radar
temp 78 degrees

70 gn 2104---2098
71 gn 2120-- 2112
72 gn 2132---2139
73 gn 2152---2145
74 gn 2181---2180

primers flat at 74

harvested a jackrabbit with good effect on way back from range

quote:

The 458 Winchester has killed many animals, but, I prefer a minimum velocity of 2400 in any rifle I hunt with, regardless of caliber.

Now there is statement of preference that stands alone without need of justification. Also explains why you love that 375/404 Walterhog bullet guided missile machine! Sure can't argue with the results of that combo.
Best regards,

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
thanks for all the input ,i have chosen to go with the lott.now to see which rifle fits in my hands the best , i am thinking used ruger or maybe a new CZ thanks again.i dont know why the lott doesnt come in stainless. thanks again

You'll thank yourself later. I love my CZ, accurate, easy shooting, and it holds 5 down. 6 rounds of .458 Lott is a lot of firepower.

To say the .458 isn't efficient is ridiculous. You get nitro performance from an '06 sized action and with relatively little powder. How is this not efficient?
Truth be told the .458 Winchester Magnum of today is EXACTLY what it is meant to have been all along.
It will drive a traditional 480-500gr projectile at 2150fps and do it at safe pressure. My personal load will send the 480gr Woodleigh RNSP at exactly 2150fps at safe pressure and very little - if any compression. Whats not to like?
Better yet it will send a 450gr NF or CEB at 2200-2300fps and these will penetrate further and hit harder than any traditional projectile can. This is not rumour or speculation - this is fact and has been proven over and over again.
None of what I've written is defending or justifying the .458 its just stating facts. And the simple fact is the .458 with today's awesome projectiles available will do anything that is needed of it for any dangerous game.

The 458 Winchester Magnum has nothing wrong with it.

It performs just like all the old cartridges it was supposed to replace.

But, today there are many cartridges that are better than it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
the hornady load book says you can get 2200 fps with there 500 grain bullets out of a 24" barrel can that velocity actually be reached. i ask because this seems so close to the lott at 2300 fps unless the lott actually gets more. i already have a 416 ruger but have always wanted a 458 and wondering which way to go.

First of all, congratulations on the 416 Ruger. That is the cat's meow and will allow you to do everything in Africa with one rifle, at least out to about 300-350 yards. Nevertheless, I feel with you on the desire for a thumper kaboom for a buffalo. So allow me to muse a little.

The capacity of the 458Lott is about 10-11 grains more than the WinMag. However, that is only about a 12% increase, which is about a 3-4% velocity increase, or in other words, only about 100fps real world difference.

Is the 100 fps worth it? Maybe, especially if you might consider a shot at 150-225 yards. Right now, the rifle for such a shot is your 416 Ruger, assuming that it is accurate, and I have every expectation that it is.

Do you already have the donor action and rifle, or will you plan on building or buying something new?
This will make a big difference in cartridge selection. For example, a Ruger Hawkeye action will limit you to the 458 WinMag, or the 458 Accurate Reloading, more in a minute. If you have a Mod70 or action made for the 375H&H, then you can consider the 458Lott.

However, since you already have the 416Ruger, you might want to consider a larger incremental increase. Most of those who gravitate to the 458, whether Lott or WinMag, are coming from a 375H&H. Your 416Ruger is already halfway there and power-wise already more than equal to the WinMag at 5000-5200ft#.

Two upgrades to consider would be the 450 Rigby, available new from CZ at about $3000, or a "500" in factory or custom. The 500 AccRel has the same basic capacity as the 450Rigby and matches or betters factory 505Gibbs and 500Jeffreys. All of those are thumper-kaboom rifles. The 500AccRel has the distinction of fitting the Ruger Hawkeye action. Yes, really. I've got one. They feel reassuring when shooting and are quite accurate, like most big bores.

If building on the Ruger Hawkeye, the 458AccRel has about 6 grains more powder capacity than the Lott and 17 more than the WinMag. The 500AccRel has about 35 grains more than the 458WinMag as well as more diameter.

Finally, consider bullets. The 458's can penetrate extremely well with 450 grainers, especially with mono-bullets like GSC and TSX. Mono-bullets like velocity, and 400 grainers are offered, too. If you want lead at 500, then there are Swifts and NorthFork's.

You can pick you bullet weight and preferred trajectory. Then get a cartridge that will deliver the goods with ease. I ended up with a .510" 450 GSC at 2600fps in a 22" barrel (it handles 2650fps, too). It was only a little step up from the hand loaded 416Rigby. But I would have been very happy with a 458AccRel. I guess I went to the .510" because I already had several nice .416"s. It's fun to ponder rifle builds.

you can get 2150 with h335, tac, and rel7 pretty easily -- no compression

Take enough gun-- This is mandatory, it must be effective

take as much gun as you can handle,it can be efficient, only if you shoot it well and are able to get off the quick 2nd shot at a running target

recoil tolerance, flinch, or the lack of -- critical on the first shot

then the raking shots to clean things up --fast and accurate --tells the rest of the [now there is a man that can shoot his rifle ] tale

if you can not shoot a 460 wby--- and most of us can not effectively and efficiently -- EVEN AT 13 POUNDS

shoot a 458 win mag

if you can not do that with an 8.5 pound 458 wm

try adding a pound or two to the rifle and load it down to 2050

or ''god forbid '' 1950 driving a 500 grain bullet [it will and has for many years worked quite well on the big stuff set up like that]

if you still don't like it [ok, but not quite right ]

step down to a 9.3 x 62

that little jewel

-- shot well and with confidence--

that little gun will get the job done over and over

as has been proven countless times for about the last 100 years


pick and shoot a gun you trust and YOU can run

it is ''enough'' and only you know what you can do


that's why a 458 win mag for some of us

might just be-- a bit of a-- better choice to take to africa

to shoot the buff, el, or eland

as we are for the most part fair weather safari participants

any ph I know would rather see you preform with a 9.3

than embarrass yourself with a -- hot lott--

makes the whisky smoother at the fire once back in camp

That makes since to me..I never said the.458 wasn't enough gun, I know better than that, shot too many animals with it to disagree on that point..All I ever said or ment is it not anything near "efficient" in that its been underloaded by the factories and you have to be a handloader and stuff it to make it work. I don't like that, its also my option to think its more efficient to punch one out to a Lott, and load the Lott down, get less pressure in the heat or otherwise and a bit more of the needed velocity..Makes perfect since to me, can't understand why that would even be questioned by all this knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
That makes since to me..I never said the.458 wasn't enough gun, I know better than that, shot too many animals with it to disagree on that point..All I ever said or ment is it not anything near "efficient" in that its been underloaded by the factories and you have to be a handloader and stuff it to make it work. I don't like that, its also my option to think its more efficient to punch one out to a Lott, and load the Lott down, get less pressure in the heat or otherwise and a bit more of the needed velocity..Makes perfect since to me, can't understand why that would even be questioned by all this knowledge.

Ray, the problem I have with the Lott, is I simply don't get along with magnum-lenght actions...that's the reason I went with a .458WM

I'm not, by any measure, close to your DG experience, but would you say a properly located 450gr Barnes TSX at 2100fsp (out of a 20" barrel) wil do its job on Buff?

quote:

Gustavo wrote:
I simply don't get along with magnum-lenght actions...that's the reason I went with a .458WM

That's why Jeff invented the 458 AccRel with more than Lott capacity. It fits 'standard length'.
For short actions and 458Win levels you have the 458B&M.

People have been busy on this forum.

Ray if you consider the load data I shot last week there is no compression using this much powder on a short barrel rifle

and it produces effective velocity with, in this case, quite efficient internal ballistics

lot of gun, lot of energy, and yes significant recoil

question is; unless you can shoot a 460 equivalent round ie lott loaded up
and who among us really can, or even needs to

why all the hoopalaaa about the lott

the aa 2030 powder of today is quite tolerant of temperature variations at extreme margins of the globe

why not shoot a 458 at 1900 fps-- it kills quite successfully at that velocity, or more if you can handle the recoil

much more the issue, will a hot lott allow you to recover from said recoil and get off an effective 2nd shot in a timely and accurate manner

yes you can download a lott

with today's bullets and powder and primers

most if not all of us

benefit from downloading a 458 wm to a level that best fits

me the individual

why not download a belted 460 weatherby to levels I can perform in a hunting situation with

of course that will work as well

they are all dam fine guns

quote:

bullet 500 gn hornady solid dxs

powder aa 2230
brass new winchester
federal 215 primer
lab radar
temp 78 degrees

70 gn 2104---2098
71 gn 2120-- 2112
72 gn 2132---2139
73 gn 2152---2145

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
Ray if you consider the load data I shot last week there is no compression using this much powder on a short barrel rifle

and it produces effective velocity with, in this case, quite efficient internal ballistics

lot of gun, lot of energy, and yes significant recoil

question is; unless you can shoot a 460 equivalent round ie lott loaded up
and who among us really can, or even needs to

why all the hoopalaaa about the lott

the aa 2030 powder of today is quite tolerant of temperature variations at extreme margins of the globe

why not shoot a 458 at 1900 fps-- it kills quite successfully at that velocity, or more if you can handle the recoil

much more the issue, will a hot lott allow you to recover from said recoil and get off an effective 2nd shot in a timely and accurate manner

yes you can download a lott

with today's bullets and powder and primers

most if not all of us

benefit from downloading a 458 wm to a level that best fits

me the individual

why not download a belted 460 weatherby to levels I can perform in a hunting situation with

of course that will work as well

they are all dam fine guns

quote:

bullet 500 gn hornady solid dxs

powder aa 2230
brass new winchester
federal 215 primer
lab radar
temp 78 degrees

70 gn 2104---2098
71 gn 2120-- 2112
72 gn 2132---2139
73 gn 2152---2145

I shoot a Lott, it is not like a .460 Wby. I used to own a .450 Dakota (unbelted equivalent of the .460 Wby). The Lott with a 500 gr bullet at 2,250 recoils much less than a Wby or Dakota with a 500 gr bullet at 2,500. I don't have any trouble shooting the Lott accurately and feel no need to load it down. A quick follow up shot is no problem, the muzzle doesn't rise more than an a couple of inches at the shot. As far as follow up shots, I have a video of myself shooting a buffalo from a sitting position using the .450 Dakota and a 450 gr TSX at 2,450 fps and even with that rifle there was very little muzzle rise. If you shoot the .458 WM and like it that is great but in today's world I see no reason for the .458 WM when there is a much better choice available and if one is going to hunt in Africa a further consideration is the fact that .458 Lott ammo is in safari camps everywhere because that is what most PHs these days use. Last camp I was in there were 4 PHs and an appy, four shot Lotts and one used a .470 double. If I were to lose my ammo in Africa I would rather lose Lott ammo than Win Mag. It speaks volumes that when the subject of the .458 WM comes up there is post after post of people posting load data attempting to show how it "almost" "just as good" as the Lott with modern powders, etc. You never see that with threads about the Lott because it's the bar to measure by and everyone knows what it is, what is capabilities are and no justification for it is needed. The Lott is what Winchester should have introduced in the first place instead of the .458 WM but they were hung up on introducing a trio of short mags for marketing purposes and so we ended up with the .458 WM. Just my $.02, YMMV.

always more elegant to get the most bang, for the least recoil, on a the lighter more maneuverable rifle --- 6.5 creedmoor comes to mind here



enough gun, global standard, more available ammunition supplies, long established performance record and so on

all things that made and make the 93 x 62 such a compelling rifle

what's wrong with a 505 gibbs, not much, if you are enough shooter to handle it,

grand stopping rifle

not everyone wants or needs one that's all

enough gun, but not to much for me, that's the just right, just enough, TRICKY PART

AND NO

a lott is not necessarily a better caliber than a 458 wm, just a different slant on the .458 family of rounds

and are we glad we have the variety to play around with YES

makes things interesting, so long as we keep the religion out of it

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Gustavo wrote:
I simply don't get along with magnum-lenght actions...that's the reason I went with a .458WM

That's why Jeff invented the 458 AccRel with more than Lott capacity. It fits 'standard length'.
For short actions and 458Win levels you have the 458B&M.

People have been busy on this forum.

I know, but I only care about factory offerings because of the availability of cases.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Gustavo wrote:
I simply don't get along with magnum-lenght actions...that's the reason I went with a .458WM

That's why Jeff invented the 458 AccRel with more than Lott capacity. It fits 'standard length'.
For short actions and 458Win levels you have the 458B&M.

People have been busy on this forum.

the 458 winmag can become a 458 Accrel with a chamber reamer and, if needs be, a trivial amount of feed work - and then can more than match the 458 lott.

besides, it's pretty sexy looking round

interesting background info on the 458 wm

good to start with the fundamentals

QUOTE'S

Although there are .416 cartridges that are good for hunting, .458 Winchester Magnum is still the ‘King of the African Safari’ as a hunting cartridge

The .458 Winchester developed a bad reputation in the 1950s and 1960s for being unreliable, which lead to the development of similar cartridges like the .458 Lott. However, the issues with the ammunition have been fixed and companies like Hornady are now producing .458 Winchester ammunition that will absolutely hammer a buffalo or an elephant.
As long as you can handle the fierce recoil of the .458 Winchester, it is a very solid choice and will serve you well in Africa.

history

The .458 Winchester Magnum was designed for hunting dangerous game animals by emulating the performance of powerful English double rifle cartridges in a bolt-action rifle. The use of a bolt-action rifle offered hunters a cheaper alternative to the big-bore double rifle, and ammunition could be manufactured using available tooling. The .458 Winchester Magnum soon became a success as dangerous game hunters adopted the cartridge. Soon game wardens, wildlife managers, and professional hunters switched to the .458 Winchester Magnum as their duty rifle. The cartridge would become the standard African dangerous game cartridge in short order.

Specifications

The .458 Winchester Magnum was designed from the outset to duplicate the performance level of the .450 Nitro Express and the .470 Nitro Express, which had become the mainstay of African dangerous game hunters. The .450 Nitro Express had been rated to launch a 480 gr (31.1 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (655 m/s) out of a 28 in (711 mm) barrel while the .470 Nitro Express would launch a 500 gr (32.4 g) bullet at 2,125 ft/s (648 m/s) out of a 31 in (787 mm) barrel. The design criteria for the .458 Winchester Magnum called for it to launch a 510 gr (33.0 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (655 m/s) out of a 26 in (660 mm) barrel.

Performance

The original specifications for the cartridge called for a 510 gr (33 g) bullet to be fired at a velocity of 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) through a 26 in (660 mm) barrel. Winchester achieved and surpassed this performance with their .458 Magnum cartridge.
Current performance standards for the cartridge allow it to launch a 500 gr (32 g) bullet at a velocity of about 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) through a 24 in (610 mm) barrel. The 500 gr (32 g) bullet is seen as the standard weight for a 45 caliber (11.43 mm) rifle bullet. This bullet has a sectional density of .341, which provides the bullet a high penetrative value at a given velocity. Among standard sporting cartridge bullets, the 45 caliber (11.43 mm) 500 gr (32 g) bullet has the highest sectional density. While bullets such as the 250 gr (16 g) 30 caliber (7.62 mm) bullet with a sectional density of .374 and even a 600 gr (39 g) 45 caliber (11.43 mm) with a sectional density of .409 exist these weights are not seen as a standard for those calibers. The .458 Winchester Magnum loaded with the 500 gr (32 g) solid bullet provides adequate penetration for dangerous game up to and including elephant.

Criticism

The .458 Winchester Magnum has had critics in its over 50 years of existence. By the late 1960s, professional hunters such as Jack Lott and others, suspected performance issues with .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition, particularly as produced by Winchester.[11]
Winchester loaded the cartridges with a ball powder that required compression to fit enough in the .458 short case to provide required performance. In time, however, the compressed power charge "caked," causing erratic burn and poor performance levels. By the 1970s, Winchester rectified this issue by manufacturing the cartridge with non-clumping propellant.[12]
While the design specifications had called for a 510 gr (33 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) through a 26 in (660 mm) barrel, hunters wanting a lighter, handier faster swinging rifle were gravitating towards rifles sporting shorter barrels. Barrel lengths 18–24 in (460–610 mm) became the norm with hardly any rifle manufacturer producing .458 rifles with barrels greater than 24 in (610 mm). Shorter barrels, as expected, produced reduced performance levels due to lower attainable velocities. When fired from these shorter barrels, chronograph velocities fell to 2,050–1,850 ft/s (620–560 m/s), in line with expectations. However, the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge was blamed for the loss of performance, and Winchester was accused of over-stating the cartridge’s performance.[11]
Due to the negative publicity, Winchester increased the performance of the .458 Winchester Magnum, which allowed the 500 gr (32 g) bullet to achieve 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s). While Winchester, like most .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition manufacturers (except Norma), continues to state velocities achieved from the 26 in (660 mm) test barrel, the velocity from a 24 in (610 mm) barrel is in keeping with the original expectations of the cartridge.[11]

This is a repost from african hunter

authored by bad boy melvin

well worth the read and for my vote spot on COULDN'T A SAID IT BETTER MYSELF

QUOTE

Here is a short article I wrote a while ago and I thought I'd post it for you to have a look at.


Why I no longer defend the .458 Winchester Magnum.

For more years than I can remember I have been an staunch fan of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Always have been, always will be and it is my personal favourite amongst the current crops of big bores.
But I have to state right now that I hold no sort of caliber racism. I have owned a few big caliber rifles, a .375H&H, .375 Weatherby and two .458's and loved them all.
I like the .458 Lott and I love the .404. I also like the various .416's and would own and stake my life on any of the above. It's just that the poor old .458 still cops a bashing whenever it's mentioned and the old girl just doesn't deserve it. It's a throughly capable caliber and a hunter using one can comfortably stake his life on it hunting any animal that walks the earth.
Having owned 2 rifles chambered for the .458WM at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round.
I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I can now no longer defend it.

Why not?

Because there's no point. I'm sick of getting into arguments with people!
People either don't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester. I end up just getting frustrated, so now I don't really bother.
Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it!
"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder and poor bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

Heard 'em all and to be honest I'm just tired of it... and I don't agree with any of the above.
(Well, except the poor bullets. In the day some of the bullets were shockers. Blew apart and were undersized.. true sick leave material.)

I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't going to get hurt, BUT, what does get me upset is when someone, usually someone new to Big Bores, buys a perfectly good rifle in .458 and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! They buy a perfectly capable round and then convert it and all because 'experts' tell them that it HAS to be converted to the Lott for it to be effective on DG. Or to make it reliable. Or because some of ammo that was manufactured 50+ ago was suspect!!
That'd be me like me saying "yeah, I drove a Chrysler 50 years and because of a bad experience I'll never drive one again!!"
I'll be honest and say that I just don't get that kind of reasoning.

To put it in perspective, how many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it, get it converted to .30-06 Ackley Improved? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then instantly get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not too many that I've met.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's great. Good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridges aren't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, that's a real shame.

As far as the .458 stories go, the most prevalent one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous (or is that infamous) for.
Now, to say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I have no doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse.
The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s and this FIXED the problem! Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.

A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann also wrote about this in detail. He wrote a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;
"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. It was, however, cemented by chemical action. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course)."

Not good, not good at all, but also NOT due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago?
Well let's see, there's the stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together - even though it wasn't compressed, the original 'solids' blowing apart and being undersize. The production line spilling powder from the empty shells before the bullet was seated. (Yes this really happened and Winchester documented it!!)
The 'glue' that held the bullet in place (yes, some companies glued the bullets in place) leaked in the case and interfered with the proper combustion of the powder.
These problems have been fixed (decades ago!!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for the really big stuff, like elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will. But I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, Grobler, Harland, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 20,000 actually and all with the 458wm.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure.
In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 (in a 24" barrel) with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 (Varget) for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H (H4895) for 2070fps.
These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 elephants, yet are not compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be the most popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'll tell you, in summertime up the Northern Territory, it gets as hot up there as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and the N.T is where they are field tested.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps is to slow for anything that a .458 caliber rifle would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28+" the .470 is usually credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action. What's not to like?

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I do with my CZ550 Safari Magnum?
Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper again!
One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $15-20! At this OAL they are the same length as the Lott and have the same case capacity. That means in a CZ, they're pretty much the same thing.
The original load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. There wouldn't be many situations where this would be lacking for dangerous game.
(Although I must admit now, I favour the lighter non-con bullets over the 500-550gr nowadays, CEB, Northforks and Woodleigh Hydro's)
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. I know that WM ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're going to use factory ammo, I'd just use the WM as is. And remember that factory ammo culled all those elephant years ago...

A lot of people buy a Lott and load it down to the the proven standard 480-500gr bullet at 2150fps. This is a sound idea as it is about ideal for DG and also lessens recoil quite a bit. Pressure would also be very low to boot. But one can also load the WM to this velocity and stay under pressure. And really, under pressure is under pressure. As long as it's under all will be fine. Personally I would not consider to re chamber my rifle to another caliber that essentially does the same thing but with 5000psi less pressure. Especially when both are under max anyway.
The .458 of today is a totally different kettle of fish to the one 50 odd years ago. All the horror stories that rightly or wrongly dogged the cartridge, such as squib loads, not enough velocity, to high pressure, not enough case capacity are just that. Ancient stories now.

Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the WM to the Lott, Ackley, etc.. just to much. In fact a lot of people find the WM to much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things.. it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.

I will always stand by the statement that on game, the .458WM will do ANYTHING anyone could want in a .458 bore.
Modern powders and bullets have made it better than ever and if the .458WM of 2014 isn't a dangerous game caliber, then nothing else is either.
Having said that I totally understand why someone would want something different.
.416's, .470's, .404's.. I mean why not? They all work. They're all fun. Go for it!

So this is why I no longer defend about the .458 Winchester Magnum.

I don't need to.

It has probably killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism.
People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa".
But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;
"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.

AND ONE MORE JUST FOR A BIT OF A BROADER BASE OF INFORMATION ON THE CALIBER / RIFLE THAT SAVED AFRICA

FOR ALL US LATE COMERS

Greatest Cartridges: .458 Winchester Magnum,

Taming Dangerous Game

By Tom Turpin -November 21, 2014


In the days when “the sun never set” on the British Empire, the colonization of vast areas on the African continent and most all of India resulted in a requirement for heavy caliber, powerful rifles and ammunition to protect the homesteads from large and often dangerous animals.

In addition, a fledgling business of outfitting and guiding foreign hunters in pursuit of these animals was developing, primarily in Kenya, but spreading throughout the continent. Rifles chambered for such exotic sounding names like .470 Nitro Express (NE), .475 #2 NE, .500 NE, and many others, along with the necessary ammunition, began showing up in both Africa and India. With few exceptions there was but one source of the necessary ammunition, and that was the UK firm called Kynoch.

Things went along just peachy for a while. Eventually, however, Kynoch learned that, as necessary as the ammunition manufacture for these big game cartridges was, they couldn’t make any money loading them. The volume requirements required to make it profitable just weren’t there, so, they did what prudent businessmen do and ceased production on most of the cartridges. This had the effect of turning lots of very handsome and very expensive firearms effectively into boat anchors. Without ammunition they were essentially useless.

In the early fifties, the Management at Olin Corp. saw an opportunity to fill the void by introducing their famous Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle in some new chamberings, one of which was designed specifically for dangerous-game hunting in both Africa and India. They called it the .458 Winchester Magnum.


Olin introduced it to the shooting world in 1956. It was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the .450 NE, .470 NE and other similar cartridges. Winchester engineers modified and shortened the .375 H&H cartridge case, and loaded a 500 grain bullet in front of enough powder to provide a muzzle velocity of about 2150 feet per second (FPS), basically replicating the Nitro Express cartridges ballistically.

Olin then hired African Professional Hunter David Ommanney to be their “Winchester’s Man in Africa,” and followed up with a blistering advertising campaign to sell both rifles and ammunition. It became an initial success, with PHs, wardens, wildlife managers and other professionals, along with the few visiting hunters venturing to that part of the world searching for elephant, buffalo, rhino, lions, tigers, etc., arming themselves with the new development.

The .458 Winchester Magnum became the world standard dangerous-game cartridge rather quickly, due in part to the fact that both the ammunition and rifles to shoot it were very substantially less expensive than British-made rifles, particularly since no ammunition was being produced for them.


Alas, after a few years in the field, problems began cropping up. Muzzle velocities were often discovered to be substantially less than the advertised velocities, frequently less than 2000 fps instead of 2150, and erratic performance issues.

Winchester investigated and found that the heavily compressed loads of powder that they were using, had a habit of clumping together causing fickle ignition and less than desirable performance. These were not welcome attributes for a dangerous-game rifle. Winchester addressed the problem and corrected it, but considerable damage was already done to the reputation of the cartridge.


Well known outdoor writer Jack Lott, managed to get himself into a tussle with a cape buffalo he had wounded using the .458 Win Mag. Needless to say, he didn’t win the wrestling match and was hammered pretty good. He didn’t do Winchester any favors writing about his experience in the outdoor press. As a result of his experience, he lengthened the .458 Winchester cartridge case by .300” and called his creation the .458 Lott. The added powder capacity, as well as advances in powder technology, made achieving Winchester’s goal with the Win Mag round easily achievable.
Even so, the .458 Winchester Magnum set the standard for dangerous-game cartridges.

Most ammunition manufacturers load factory ammo for it, and most rifle manufacturers make rifles chambered for the round. In spite of past glitches with the ammo, it works and it works very well. Armed with a quality rifle chambered for the .458 Win Mag,

and the ability to shoot it accurately--- and the ability to shoot it accurately, --- and the ability to shoot it accurately

the hunter need fear very little in today’s hunting world.

TOM TURPIN

Tom Turpin is the author of several hundred published articles and a contributing editor to Gun Digest. His published books include "Custom Rifles: Mastery of Wood & Metal," and "Modern Custom Guns, 2nd Edition," both available at GunDigestStore.com.

The facts are that the 458 Win actually earned a sterling reputation by doing exactly what it was designed to do. It gave the proven performance of the vast majority of the English double rifle stopping rounds. Actualy if anyone cares to honestly compare them you will find that, no matter what their ballistics are claimed to be, most run around 2100fps or less with a 500 gr bullet. The Winchester round offered that as documented by the HP White laboratories when it was introduced and numerous African PH's with years of experience and thousands of kills, like Harry Selby, Mike LaGrange, Richard Harland, staked their lives on it and spoke glowing of it's performance.
Even Jack Lott spoke in glowing terms of the 458 Win when he wrote about it immediately after his famed bullalo fiasco. His story, written up and edited by him at the time, spoke glowingly about the 458 and how the incident with the buffalo was purely a result of his poor shooting !

20 years later, after a cartridge was introduced with his name on it was under development , his stories and his writing began completely contradicting his original stories. But even then Jack stated that all he was looking for was a round that gave 2100 fps with a 500 gr bullet as that was a proven load.


I have had discussions with ballisticians at a few of the big ammo manufacturers and they all claim that when loaded to the same pressures the difference between the 458 Win and the Lott only amount to around 60 fps.

With regard to the comparison of the WinMag to the Lott since some load developers have obtained loads in the WM that approach what they obtained in the Lott, there is some clarification needed. Some years back I think it was PO Ackley setup some experiments. One of these experiments was to obtain several barrels of the same bore, then chamber them for one of the smaller cartridges for that bore. Proceed to develop loads wherein the maximum loads/velocities were obtained. Even though the several barrels were made to the same specs and were as identical as manufacturing could obtain, there was a several grain spread and significant differences in maximum loads. He then took the barrels and rechambered them to a larger cartridge and repeated the process, obtaining similar patterns of results. The conclusions he reached were that even "identical" barrels had significant differences in performance BUT that an individual barrel, when the chamber capacity increase, there was a proportionate increase in velocity (within the functions of bore-capacity, etc)

So while there may be WM barrels that will produce Lott-like velocities, if those same barrels were rechambered to the Lott, there would be a Lott-like increase in velocity. Of course, there will also be a Lott-like increase in powder load and recoil.

.308 good for nothing, 30-06 great all around cartridge. Sound familiar?

I have shot quite a bit with the 458 WM and never found it wanting. Elephant, buffalo, impala, kudu, etc.
I think all of this controversy has something to do with the Russians.

quote:

when loaded to the same pressures the difference between the 458 Win and the Lott only amount to around 60 fps

This is correct.
Yes. 60 fps.

One can even calculate it on the 'rule of quarters'. The Lott is about 12% more capacity. A quarter of that is 3%. One may expect a 3% velocity increase, assuming everything else equal. A 3% increase of a 2000fps projectile is 60fps.
In fact, the 308 increase to 30-06 is more like 20% capacity increase, which gives a 5% velocity increase, which may work out to 125-150fps increase, loaded to same pressures, etc.


If a person wants significant improvement to the 458 WM, go to the 450 Rigby//450 Dakota and a 40% capacity increase. The 458AccRel is closer to what is claimed about the Lott and the AccRel will get someone a real 100fps increase with its 17 grain capacity increase over the WinMag.

Myself? I am too addicted to velocity to want to hunt at 2000-2100fps, so I would use monometals at 400-450 grains if I needed to use a 458 WM.

^meh... I still like the option of putting 500 gr. mono's in the Lott.

There is no real reason to chamber the shorter cartridge in a magnum action like the CZ anyway.