The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 winchester magnumGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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So simply put it is brilliant. | |||
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Thanks for the compliment!  You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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Well badboymelvin it is for me--- to my mind-- spot on Recoil ---- this is the part that I never hear the lott guys EFFECTIVELY address If god ever allowed me to go back to darwin,if the gunsmoke safari guy would even take me on, to clean a couple hundred blacks out of the swamp, I would take my culling 458 wm and 500 plus rounds of "shootable yet effective" buffalo loads. wouldn't want a lott, or a 460, or a 303 [but at 215 grain bullets running 2,200 fps ] tempting --- may be enough gun, or a 308, or a 375 ruger, been there done that with the ruger. It was good, not ok, worked good. It is just that hunting on the early morning of the third day now down 200 rounds and dead out of bullets for my short barrel gun. no rugers in darwin dam sure none in camp. And for dam sure not quite ready to quit killing buffaloes, Berry's 458 came in handy with a car load of bullets he hauled out from town. Here's the thing, five days at 100 Lott lights a day or there about [5 packs of cigarettes or so,in any event lots of smoke], would run the risk of deep muscle trauma, at that point even the 303 would be a challenge to shoot come thursday morning. it's a personal thing -- just my problem-- still I wonder if ---and I will never know if ---Jack Lott had properly dealt with his pre safari recoil issues on that 458 win mag before the buffalo tossing african hunt, might the subsequent development of the 458 lott have ever even happened? The first good shot and ability to quickly and properly clean up a misstep, more often than not can best be accomplished with: less gun, less velocity, and more pre hunt range time. Not the bigger, faster, fat bullet throwing lighter gun. that there solution works best at the SCI bar, at the downtown lunch, and other domestic local water holes, or even the city zoo. no doubt ---some seasoned-- high time-- african hunters would like to tie my head to a post, whip me down there where the colt sucks, for acting like the stupid mule I am, for bringing this awkward issue up Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I've shot my share of buffalo with the .458 Win. 123 in total with the cartridge. There's no doubt in my mind that upping the velocity increased the killing power; up to including loads that pushed the bullets back out. The bullets expanded more, and hit harder just as surely as close range shots hit harder than long range shots. Trouble is; the heavily compressed loads are more trouble than they are worth. A simple rechambering job gives the best of both worlds so my Win Mag is now a Lott. | |||
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My question for all the folks who claim that the velocity increase with the Lott is meaningful is why not simply go to the 460 Weatherby? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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One more time. Using the proper powder charges Such as H335 & AA2230 to attain A velocity of between 2125-2200 FPS using rifles with barrel lengths between 22-24" firing 500 gr. Bullets. There is no compression. | |||
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Yes, I would prefer the 450Rigby, which is the beltless equivalent to the 460Weatherby. The seems a better powder capacity for a .458". +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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This is not a hard concept to consider on the other hand if you are just looking for more recoil 9.6 # GUN AA-2230 HORNADY WT. LB.S LB,S powder bullet velocity rifle recoil 70 500 2142 9.6 68.3 71 500 2179 9.6 70.0 72 500 2188 9.6 70.5 73 500 2217 9.6 71.9 74 500 2237 9.6 72.9 75 500 2264 9.6 74.2 76 500 2281 9.6 75.0 77 500 2307 9.6 76.3 78 500 2344 9.6 78.2 11.5 # GUN AA-2230 HORNADY WT. LB.S LB,S powder bullet velocity rifle recoil 70 500 2142 11.5 57.0 71 500 2179 11.5 58.4 72 500 2188 11.5 58.9 73 500 2217 11.5 60.0 74 500 2237 11.5 60.9 75 500 2264 11.5 61.9 76 500 2281 11.5 62.6 77 500 2307 11.5 63.7 78 500 2344 11.5 65.3 Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I had a .450 Dakota and sold it, great cartridge, but I like the 5 down one in the chamber capacity of my CZ.458 Lott better than the limited capacity my Dakota had. | |||
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Interesting.I've always found that there is more time for shots 4 and 5. It is the first shot that I intend to impress with. The rifle that puts the bullet exactly where it needs to go would be my choice. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Now there is something to be recommended carry water in your belly and bullets in your gun I for one, am a 5 down fan got it from the early days on the high deserts of arizona, when all I could afford and shoot was a 303 british custom by --- hacksaw and horse hoof rasp inc. it was a shooter and a killer I will tell you that Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Besides it coming in a $3500 push feed that holds 2 down, has an iffy extractor, takes expensive and hard to find ammo and has styling that more than a few people cringing? | |||
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Thought we were discussing the cartridges as Lott does not build rifles Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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the difference is zero load um up to 2300 fps in rifles of the same wt same recoil load em down to 2100 in two rifles of same wt and you lose 10 pounds of kick back and dam little killing power With your Lott you are just carrying around more money in gun and brass --- might call it idle money --- but probably worth the bragging rights on the other hand if you put a compressed load in your big o lott and get er up to 2.500 slinging a 500 hard now you got yourself a sports model weatherby with five down and one in the tube that's if you can get er done without a blow up that right there --will better help you notice more recoil-- and now you are using your investment with a bit more utility and thats somthing your are not going to be able to get done with a 458 win mag Thats dam sure one way to make the lott stand out and really about the only way I can come up with and if you want to do that nothing wrong with it just watch your pressures and sneak up on as much 460 wby velocity as you can stand ''Jack wasn't the only one who felt the way he did. So did Ackley, Mashburn, Watts and others and apparently most African DG PHs. A PH friend of mine whom I load for has me load 550 gr Woodleighs at 2,100 fps in the Lott which is probably loading it to its hardest hitting. Lott wasn't even the first to wildcat a .458 on the full length H&H case, he was just the most successful at promoting his creation. .458 Lott/Watts/Ackley was going to happen and eclipse the Win Mag regardless of whether Jack Lott got tossed by a buffalo.'' what Jack got done that the rest of um did not was --- promote his name at the bully pulpit of the hunting magazine by running down a perfectly good caliber ---to promote his own version--- of someone else's wildcat --- for about 60 fps yes- I have a ruger in the african lott chambering--- and a bunch of new hornady brass [500] so I guess--- that makes me a sucker too difference is I know it's not at the expense of the good old standby 458 win mag - duty rifle - african safari king --- carmichael's big daddy gun standing on tradition is what makes africa for all of us here and what makes the african magic in all of it for all of us here we accomplish nothing-- by saying a 458 wm can not killem, and only thing the ph's will carry and trust is a lott, over a win mag to me that smells like poppycock Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Am I wrong about what the old Jack said about the .458WM? In his "Bore Big Rifles" (published in 1983) he, of course, tell us about the near-death-experience he had with a nasty buff (in the .458 WM chapter) but he never said it's was a wimpy cartridge, not even close to such statement but the contrary. Basically he blamed the bullets, not the cartridge which he touted as a very good one. Not saying he might have changed his mind years later, but indeed his dreams about what finally became the .458 Lott was long before this article. So, the man never spoke out and loud against this proven cartrdige, the talented .458 WM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Go meet some PHs then tell me it's poppycock that most of them prefer the Lott to the Win Mag. As I stated earlier the last camp I was in there were 4 PHs and one appy, 4 used Lotts and one used a .470 double. | |||
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a 470 ne one appy four ph'S and a hunt can not be considered a robust data set even - a pre sample of what's out there it can be seed for a preferential opinion good for marketing, good for politics, and good for reinforcing the soul of a proud gun owner does not make you right, does not make you wrong just isn't much information to go on A lott is-- loaded up-- a fair stopping rifle, If you're man enough to drive it forward at 2400 fps hauling a 500 grain load usually bigger un the american client's gun, adequate for bragging rights and if you can handle it running the hotter loads a dam fine back up rifle only if dun up by a competent gun maker not saying it's silly, just saying it won't do much if anything the 458 win mag can get done better faster cheaper -- ALL THREE better because --all of us-- shoot with more consistency - accuracy --better-- with less recoil as opposed to more faster because the human brain can recover and respond to the next trama if the strike was light er un a hot Lott recoil bump, so out of 10 runs will produce a higher score of quick accurate 2nd shots and I will let other folks work on why it may be a bit cheaper to own and run the 458 wm then it is a lott --- giving up that the money is really less of an issue here the Lott best -- 458 win mag not so good -- is not unlike setting up the argument that a 470 ne wont quite killem best to get a 500 ne if you can afford it and shoot it If I were to advance that debate Squirrel Nut might say--- and rightly so--- that I was full of poppycock Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I'd love to hear more anecdotes on/from Rundgren. He was a hell of an interesting person it sounds like. | |||
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All of the foregoing is very interesting. However, the point remains the same. That does not make the .458Win any less capable. We need to define "better". I will respect any feedback given by experienced by PHs, but in some cases, with a grain of salt. I've seen enough of bad placed shots, wrong bullets and the combination of the two. So, some feedback has to be backed up with enough information to make it really valuable. Just saying "the .458Win failed to me" is far from enough to make any decent conclusion based on merit and with a rational approach. Otherwise, the other half of the world, which support the .458WIn is wrong? Don't think so. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Alf, thanks for sharing this "inside" story about the birth of the venerable .458Win ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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My post never questioned the killing ability of the .458 and I stated that, so why the questioning on that.. What I question is the compacted loads required to get 2100 FPS, and I get false claims in response..Another factor of no factual fragrance is quoting me loads in 75 to 78 degrees of heat to question my response..78 degrees is not the 110 degrees of Africa. also my .458 Lotts were on 98 Mauser and pre 64 actions, not true magnum actions.. Now my post stated that I personally preferred to run a weaver in the .458 chamber and make it a Lott and load it down to my favorite .458 Load of 2200 to 2250 FPS..Keeping in mind that the quoted 100 FPS IS a lot in a Lott, with a 500 gr. bullet..Its not much in a 270 or 30-06 or even a 300 WBY but is a bunch in a DG round.. Actually, as a reloader, I also prefer the Watts. Just my thoughts and replys to the posts directed at my opinion, and they are appreciated and worth conversation.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Interested in Reloder 7 and 450gr Barnes TSX, any load you can reccomend for these components? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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not yet Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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A cartridge isn't good for much without a rifle to fire it in. | |||
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There was a fellow at were I worked years ago. He got the nickname "Pine knot" He was the kind of fellow that you could show him reams of proof, have a legion of people tell him the same fact, have the proof engraved on a granite stone and verified by multiple experts, And he still wouldn't believe it. That's why they called him "Pine Knot" | |||
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Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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SOME INFORMATION ON THE AA 2230 PRODUCT TO GIVE US A BASELINE POSITION [ A STARTING POINT] I misspoke on the prior post it's not and upper temperature limit of 140 f its 125 f see below [QUOTE] Accurate 2230 is a fast burning, double-base, spherical rifle propellant. This versatile powder was designed around the 223 Remington, but can be used in many small and medium caliber cartridges including the 308 Winchester. 2230 also works well in big bore straight wall cartridges such as the 458 Winchester. The excellent flow characteristics and grain size of 2230 make it ideal for progressive loading. Made in Belgium Bulk Density(grams/cc) +/-5.6% 0.985 VMD(cc/grams) 1.015 Bulk Density(grains/cc) +/-5.6% 15.201 VMD(cc/grains) 0.066 From the Accurate Powder web site: Most of our powders are not insensitive, and will show some effect at hot and cold temperatures. However, we test at -40F and +125F and the deviation in most cases are ca 3% to 5% at these extreme levels. Therefore most shooters do not notice much difference under normal practical hunting conditions. More elaboration on the subject: Complete temperature stability can only be achieved with tubular extruded powders designs, either with double base (NG) and/or with other coating technologies. Because the ballistic performance at extreme temperature is completely dependant on the specific combination, it is very difficult to quantify and qualify. Our standard powders perform very well at extreme temperatures, and usually pass the strict military requirements by a large margin. This is a subject that often fraught with misconceptions and inaccuracies. The term is used loosely by manufacturers without qualifying the subject, and is obviously exploited for marketing purposes and perceptions. The facts are: Although powders can be improved, it is really only possible with advanced coating procedures and additives which increase the cost A particular powder can be improved re temperature stability for certain combinations, within a certain envelope which is specific to the following three main parameters/aspects The caliber. The weight of the projectile/bullet. The performance level. If any of these parameters/aspects go beyond or outside the intended ratio/s, the results will change and the performance will sometimes be different. It is also very important that when a comparison is made, that all conditions re weapon i.e. components primer, case, bullet and the velocity are equal, and preferably done at the same time on the same day. Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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GOOD GOD A MIGHTY ---now you have gone and done it-- ALF sorting out the facts from the fairy tells Finn Aagaard writes about the 458 win mag in the 458 wm section of any shot you want reloading manual published 1996 --- reinforcing just about everything your post--- lays out at that time it was hard if not impossible, to get the velocities reported in today's world, with components available at that time Finn was not inclined to run the gun down --- hell he loved it it is definitive that the only load listed for caliber in that volume was the 465 lion load, running at a not very hot 2250, using the A square proprietary bullet one I never liked much but I did not shoot it much either, so there is that, and it was a soft not a solid, so making a --- somewhat of a --- left handed point here I wonder if, and it may be quite hard to ever know if, the slower running bullets, --- and subsequent reduction in recoil--- modern physics suggests was present at the time, might have had more of an impact on the killing record of that gun culling elephant, then the -- advertised -- expected and MUCH wanted velocity ever could have. a 458 wm running at 1900 is appreciably more friendly hauling around a 500 grain solid, than one burning off at 2350 a fact like that could do damage to a little man's ego one thing we do hear about -- the duty rifle in those days did quite a lot of killing the safari rifle of the 1970 is credited with, SAVING AFRICA some people labeled it the safari king of africa, growing up in arizona we kids thought of it as -- THE big daddy GUN. it is remarkable that all that happened with a setup that --- consistently and predictably-- hardly if ever, achieved any thing north of 2000 fps makes you ponder, if even give all the new powder fancy bullets and other rifle choices out there today, would a 458 wm loaded to fit my ability, tuned up, shot in, and well practiced, not be a good, if not best fit choice -- for me to head of to africa and shoot the eland while not embarrassing myself and then facing the requirement to resent the PH having all the fun Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Alf, Your logic will fall on a cornucopia of deaf ears, and out of joint noses and black magic procurers..  The .458 Win. is not the where to all of DG rifles, never was and never will be..Will it kill all DG? yes it will but its always been prone to failure and judged by those who have shot one or two elephants or buffalo with it, and a big advertisement campaign..since it was so handicap some claimed it true and they dropped 50 gr,s and bumped the velocity to shoot a short fat bullet, much like a muzzle loader. That IMO is a poor alternative for various reasons a band aid more or less. Then the wonder powders show up but still its a blivit of a caliber and that is 5 lbs. of paw paw (African term for escrement) in a 3 lb. bag, compression and pressure spiked. Of course this is just my opinion, but its my honest evaluation, like it or not and folks certainly have every right to disagree and challenge that..Its the reason we are on this page together.. I actually would use a 458 Watts to get the needed velocity in a std. action with a 500 gr. bullet, quite a caliber IMO. The Lott however has been legitimized and no longer a wildcat and rightly so..Id load it down to 2200 to 2250 with a 500 gr. and to me that's about the perfect 45 cal DG rifle. Its so easy to do with a std. 458 Win., just run a reamer in to punch it out, I can see no reason not to..cheap and it works. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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yes Ray, lots of ways to get more volume more velocity and more energy this thread, velocity of 458 win mag using hornady loads --- is the core discussion the 458 is more than adequate and using today's components can achieve velocities most people are not aware of, due to the old information and misinformation out there 1950 fps is enough to do the work required with a 500 grain hornady solid and soft that's all our range time today gave us 2200 fps in 3 rifles temperature on the range was 93 degrees at high noon gun --- smithson custom 458, 22 inch barrel, 1909 mauser action, shooting up to 2200 fps at 74 grains of aa 2230 gun--- montana action, was tested from 70 to 78 grains of same powder with a velocity of 2310 fps at 78 gn, 22 inch tube custom remington 700, 75 grains gave velocities in the lower 2200 fps we did see a observable variation in the 5 rifles tested to date, some with flat primers at 75 grains and 2 that shot up to 78 with no flat primer we will center future work on velocities in the 2150 range for all guns to be tested and that load, with one powder, will be fired at cartridge temperatures up to 140 f to record the pressure indications and velocity changes the recoil at 2150 with a 9.5 - 10.5 pound rifle is about all I would want, and as such should do a good job on large game the velocity change for softs was less than 10 fps over solids, which makes us say hornady has done quite well with that set of dg bullets at the 500 grain wt we are testing only one powder in this run, to demonstrate to us, for us, that a rifle with a 22 inch tube can obtain velocities in the range of 2150 launching 500 grain hornady softs and solids and that the impact point will be consistent between the two bullets we are preferential to a load that is not compressed. yields velocity north of 2100 with 500 grain hunting bullets. can take hot sun and or a hot barrel. and not stick the bolt easy to load. so no drop tube. and or extra crimp issues effort while discovering issues that arise over 7 or 8 rifles typically found in the 458 win mag inventory 3 off the shelf so-- win 70 --rem 798-- cz Then a rebarreled montana action, custom 98 action, custom rem 700 action, finaly the custom weatherby action early indication is that it is quite straightforward to achieve 2150 in all rifles listed, with some of the rifles 2300 plus is possible with acceptable pressure indication. some of the tight custom, or what ever causes it, rifles are delivering flat primers at about 75 grains of aa 2230, who knows why, we are not obsessing about that, just stop the progression at that point, with that rifle when we complete the round heating and shooting tests, I expect that I can report with good confidence that, this powder-- primer-- bullet-- combination, is a good fit for running your 458 win mag using modern components we are not trying to achieve 2300 fps, we are trying to discover the sweet spot for a standard 458 win mag, in this bullet, rifle configuration if a 458 wm shooting a 500 grain hornady at something less than or equal to 2150 is satisfactory for your application, why do anything to it, just buy one, load up some ammo, and shoot it in that is the kind of thing we are working toward here it is enough, nothing wrong with it, good rifle, good round, good choice -- if this is your preference if on the other hand some one needs to build up the justification for a lott by running down the trusted and long running win mag best to get it above 2150 before much pontification on the virtues of the--- lott--- watt--- or hot--- wby really not all that deep Ray Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I like what your saying, but when I load like that some folks jump on me like a duck on a june bug!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Well Ray you have been around enough cowboys to know what works at the end of a catch rope is good enough to get the branding done people that read and opine what they think they know ''sounds good''. more often than not are the very ones that draw back when things get down to the nut cuttin and dam sure don't eat rocky mountain oysters, no matter which way ya cook em -- which leaves more for us we measured the rifles today getting ready for the next run of testing yet to be acquired a something 458 win mag with a 20 inch tube 10.5 pound gun LEFT HAND remington 700 custom 21.5 inch barrel top speed 74 grains 2256 fps light compression -- some pressure show 11.25 pound gun LEFT HAND montana custom 22 inch barrel top speed 78 grains 2310 fps heavy compression-- light pressure show 8.75 pound gun m 98 1909 argentine custom 22 5/8 barrel top speed 73 grains 2180 fps no compression --- light pressure show 9.5 pound gun winchester m 70 production gun 24 inch barrel not yet shot 11.75 pound gun LEFT HAND weatherby custom 24 inch barrel not yet shot 11.25 pound gun CZ 458 win mag production gun 25 inch barrel not yet shot 10 pound gun zustiva remington 798 production gun 26 inch barrel top speed 78 grains 2355 fps heavy compression --no pressure show powder aa 2230 new can primer federal 215 brass new winchester bullets 500 grain dg softs and solids by hornady so far we see opportunity to meet the test goals with extra margin in speed for folks that want to go 100 fps faster than the target velocity of 2150 fps but that is getting ahead a bit for where we are at this time next time you wander down to provo plan on lunch and a half day on the gun range we would welcome your input and guarantee you a grand time may show you some fancy rifles, just cause you like that kind of stuff, just promise not to scratch one, they belong to rich people, not us we have run aground for now waiting on more bullets Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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The Weatherby rounds can, and have been, built on any action capable of handling the 416 Rigby Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Dogleg what velocities are you preferential to and what bullet wt do you tend to shoot when running your 458 lott setup what rifle make do you happen to have may give us a break point for thinking about the practical upper range for pushing a 458 win mag if anyone on this forum backs up his gun with hunting, shooting, and the ability to run the gun I would say you're on that list, in that group I see from other posts your back from Australia with another Teddy Roosevelt bag My kind of hunting if I was smart as you and had 2 dimes to rub together Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Intelligent conversation can go south when one attacks old betsy on the internet, a difference of opinion gets hot and heavy..My questions is so whats the big deal, it all just opinion based on what someone has read, what someone has spent money on, and sometimes based on experience... Bottom line in this case is the .458 Win. its been in the barrel all its life, but it will kill buffalo and elephant, albeit with handloads. But there are better options, ooops! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The luxury of near total access to information via a screen device has flooded our logic processing units. This results predictably in some chaos in thought. We see the same problem today in the "intelligence" gathering arena. We know so much but are paralyzed by the choices. The 458 WM was and is a fine Killer of things one wants to kill. Factory or hand load. Safely in any conditions a human can survive in. So is the Lott. Choices. Best regards, "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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There are choices and most if not all of them are excellent variations on the 458 caliber This thread is exploring hornady's load manuals published loads and various rifles as related to velocity and pressure of those powder recipes at least that was the start of things and as such is reflected in the core content of this discussion the inference might be, can we with loads published in the latest reloading manual hornady reloading manual, achieve performance as advertized at the inception of the rifle which were not validated in the field leading to much disappointment in a time when the hunting world badly needed a substitute to the old world heavy;s of gone by days The theme here --- is not--- to set the record straight, that now days you don't need a 460 weatherby, it's no good, or drop your lott, the duty rifle is back, but rather --The theme of this discussion is that with today's modern components, which includes affordable and available bullets, you can run the gun just like it was billed out in 1956 our recent testing indicates yes you can, and more why because in most, if not all rifles, of short, shorter than originally advertised 26" barrel length [see article below] , the gun will run at 2150 fps launching the 500 grain soft and solid now, if it will do that, and that is all you really need to get done well, it, seems it, is enough gun however if, that makes some one with a bigger gun, faster and harder hitting, uncomfortable because he selected his weapon based on, the legend that, the 458 is no good well I really don't know how to help this individual get comfortable with his choice, nothing wrong with his rifle nothing much wrong with the 458 win mag running today's fodder, it's all about choices and what you, the individual can shoot and, are comfortable with that's simple enough, I should thing Hell it might even be considered reasonable, by right minded gentlemen REVIEWING THE HISTORY OF THE 458 WIN MAG [QUOTE] The .458 Winchester Magnum was designed from the outset to duplicate the performance level of the .450 Nitro Express and the .470 Nitro Express, which had become the mainstay of African dangerous game hunters. The .450 Nitro Express had been rated to launch a 480 gr (31.1 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (655 m/s) out of a 28 in (711 mm) barrel while the .470 Nitro Express would launch a 500 gr (32.4 g) bullet at 2,125 ft/s (648 m/s) out of a 31 in (787 mm) barrel. The design criteria for the .458 Winchester Magnum called for it to launch a 510 gr (33.0 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (655 m/s) out of a 26 in (660 mm) barrel. In the days when “the sun never set” on the British Empire, the colonization of vast areas on the African continent and most all of India resulted in a requirement for heavy caliber, powerful rifles and ammunition to protect the homesteads from large and often dangerous animals. In addition, a fledgling business of outfitting and guiding foreign hunters in pursuit of these animals was developing, primarily in Kenya, but spreading throughout the continent. Rifles chambered for such exotic sounding names like .470 Nitro Express (NE), .475 #2 NE, .500 NE, and many others, along with the necessary ammunition, began showing up in both Africa and India. With few exceptions there was but one source of the necessary ammunition, and that was the UK firm called Kynoch. Things went along just peachy for a while. Eventually, however, Kynoch learned that, as necessary as the ammunition manufacture for these big game cartridges was, they couldn’t make any money loading them. The volume requirements required to make it profitable just weren’t there, so, they did what prudent businessmen do and ceased production on most of the cartridges. This had the effect of turning lots of very handsome and very expensive firearms effectively into boat anchors. Without ammunition they were essentially useless. In the early fifties, the Management at Olin Corp. saw an opportunity to fill the void by introducing their famous Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle in some new chamberings, one of which was designed specifically for dangerous-game hunting in both Africa and India. They called it the .458 Winchester Magnum.Olin introduced it to the shooting world in 1956. It was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the .450 NE, .470 NE and other similar cartridges. Winchester engineers modified and shortened the .375 H&H cartridge case, and loaded a 500 grain bullet in front of enough powder to provide a muzzle velocity of about 2150 feet per second (FPS), basically replicating the Nitro Express cartridges ballistically. Olin then hired African Professional Hunter David Ommanney to be their “Winchester’s Man in Africa,” and followed up with a blistering advertising campaign to sell both rifles and ammunition. It became an initial success, with PHs, wardens, wildlife managers and other professionals, along with the few visiting hunters venturing to that part of the world searching for elephant, buffalo, rhino, lions, tigers, etc., arming themselves with the new development. The .458 Winchester Magnum became the world standard dangerous-game cartridge rather quickly, due in part to the fact that both the ammunition and rifles to shoot it were very substantially less expensive than British-made rifles, particularly since no ammunition was being produced for them. Alas, after a few years in the field, problems began cropping up. Muzzle velocities were often discovered to be substantially less than the advertised velocities, frequently less than 2000 fps instead of 2150, and erratic performance issues. Winchester investigated and found that the heavily compressed loads of ball powder that they were using, had a habit of clumping together causing fickle ignition and less than desirable performance. These were not welcome attributes for a dangerous-game rifle. Winchester addressed the problem and corrected it, but considerable damage was already done to the reputation of the cartridge. Well known outdoor writer Jack Lott, managed to get himself into a tussle with a cape buffalo he had wounded using the .458 Win Mag. Needless to say, he didn’t win the wrestling match and was hammered pretty good. He didn’t do Winchester any favors writing about his experience in the outdoor press. As a result of his experience, he lengthened the .458 Winchester cartridge case by .300” and called his creation the .458 Lott. The added powder capacity, as well as advances in powder technology, made achieving Winchester’s goal with the Win Mag round easily achievable. Even so, the .458 Winchester Magnum set the standard for dangerous-game cartridges. Most ammunition manufacturers load factory ammo for it, and most rifle manufacturers make rifles chambered for the round. In spite of past glitches with the ammo, it works and it works very well. Armed with a quality rifle chambered for the .458 Win Mag, and the ability to shoot it accurately, the hunter need fear very little in today’s hunting world. .458 Winchester Magnum Ammunition Ammunition Bullet Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy MPBR/Zero Notes Winchester X4581 Winchester 510 gr (33 g) SP 2,040 ft/s (620 m/s) 4,712 ft·lbf (6,389 J) 195 yd (178 m)/167 yd (153 m) Currently in production Winchester S458WSLSP Nosler 500 gr (32 g) Partition 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s) 5,570 ft·lbf (7,550 J) 218 yd (199 m)/185 yd (169 m) Currently in production Winchester S458WSLS Nosler 500 gr (32 g) Solid 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s) 5,570 ft·lbf (7,550 J) 213 yd (195 m)/181 yd (166 m) Currently in production Federal P458T1 TBBC 400 gr (26 g) SP 2,250 ft/s (690 m/s) 4,496 ft·lbf (6,096 J) 212 yd (194 m)/180 yd (160 m) Currently in production Federal P458T2 TBBC 500 gr (32 g) SP 2,090 ft/s (640 m/s) 4,849 ft·lbf (6,574 J) 206 yd (188 m)/175 yd (160 m) Currently in production Federal P458T3 TBSS 500 gr (32 g) Solid 1,950 ft/s (590 m/s) 4,221 ft·lbf (5,723 J) 194 yd (177 m)/165 yd (151 m) Currently in production Federal P458D Barnes 500 gr (32 g) TSX 2,050 ft/s (620 m/s) 4,665 ft·lbf (6,325 J) 206 yd (188 m)/175 yd (160 m) Currently in production Federal P458E Barnes 500 gr (32 g) BS 2,050 ft/s (620 m/s) 4,665 ft·lbf (6,325 J) 205 yd (187 m)/174 yd (159 m) Currently in production Federal P458SA Swift 500 gr (32 g) A Frame 2,090 ft/s (640 m/s) 4,849 ft·lbf (6,574 J) 207 yd (189 m)/176 yd (161 m) Currently in production Norma 20111102 Barnes 500 gr (32 g) BS 2,067 ft/s (630 m/s) 4,745 ft·lbf (6,433 J) 207 yd (189 m)/176 yd (161 m) Currently in production Norma 20111202 Swift 500 gr (32 g) A Frame 2,116 ft/s (645 m/s) 4,972 ft·lbf (6,741 J) 209 yd (191 m)/178 yd (163 m) Currently in production Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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OK, nice resource for .458 WinMag history and load data, thanks.  Even made me get out the Cal Pappas' book, James '.450' Watts: Recollections of My Life and start reading it again. I quickly concluded: UNDENIABLE TRUTH: A GRIZZLY BEAR IS TO JAMES WATTS AS A CAPE BUFFALO IS TO JACK LOTT. See why below. James Watts was born in Kansas in 1913. He got his first gun at age 8 y.o., a Stevens single-shot, drop-lever .22RF, and he was then paying 15 cents per box of "Lesmoke shells -- the last of the semi-smokeless shells" (Pappas, 1996, p. 12). In 1936-1937 James Watts was teaching history and english in Deerfield, KS, having just finished a bachelor's degree. In late 1937 or early 1938 he bought his first Winchester Model 70, a .375 H&H, "the 17th Winchester made in that caliber. I bought it in Lawrence, Kansas, when I was in graduate school. A friend and I went down to the garbage dump to try it out. It shot hard!" (Pappas, 1996, p. 14). (Stuart Otteson says the first M70s started shipping in August 1936.) But it did not shoot hard enough! By summer of 1938 James Watts was hiking from Valdez to Fairbanks, Alaska, packing that M70, and a hundred rounds of ammo. (I have driven that 373 miles with my mother-in-law in the back seat, so I know who enjoyed the trip more: James Watts!) He worked a year, based in Fairbanks, 1938-1939, as ditch digger, accountant, and airborne mining claim surveyor, he was a James of many trades, all about central and northeastern Alaska. Hiking south from Fairbanks to Valdez in summer of 1939 James Watts had a run-in with a grizzly. Probably what he was hoping for all along, hence the 400-mile hikes! "It was 10 o'clock at night and I was walking on a well-worn game trail. Across the river was a small hill and the game trail continued on up that hill. When I got to the middle of the river I heard a noise and looked up. Coming down the other side toward me was a grizzly. He was coming through the wet ferns and brush (it had stopped raining) and his coat was shiny and wet. He growled a couple of times when he saw me. I had my pack on my back and swung my rifle around. When I'm by myself I always keep the barrel loaded and on safety. Just as I did that he turned from the trail and came down through the brush at me. "I fired the .375 and hit him right in the middle of the chest as he was coming over the brush. I was using Western 300-grain soft points in the rifle. He let out a terrible bawl as he hit the water right beside me. As he hit the stream next to me I fell sideways and landed on my left elbow. He made one swipe and hit me with his paw as he went by. I had a Colt New Service .45 on my hip (it was the biggest revolver I could get in those days) with a 7-1/2-inch barrel. He hit the Colt with his paw and tore the gun and holster right off my belt. When the holster ripped off my belt, the force spun me around. He then went by me and up onto the bank of the incoming trail. When the bullet hit him he apparently lost interest in me and went right on by. I rolled over in the water and took a shot again, but missed. "I picked myself up from the water, loaded the rifle, and shed my pack. I didn't have my pistol as it was somewhere in the stream. In my pack was a single shot .22 Stevens Tip Up I used for shooting grouse and rabbits for food. I went down the trail about 50 feet and there he lay, blood everywhere. The .375 slug went straight through him. I cut off a couple of claws and picked up my pack. I made a small camp and went to sleep until 8 in the morning. "Early that morning, I found my pistol in the stream. It was behind a boulder and didn't have a mark on it. I waded the stream and went on two miles to Black Rapids Inn. I had a good meal there and rested up for 8 or 10 hours. One of my legs was skinned up a little and my right hip was badly bruised. "I continued walking to Valdez. It was a test of endurance and a matter of principle, foolish principle, but principle none the less ..." (Pappas, 1996, p.18). Above excerpts for book review purposes. Book review: Excellent book. Also from my bookshelf, WESTERN POWDERS RELOADING & LOAD DATA GUIDE EDITION's 5.0 and 6.0: ************************************************************************** ************************************************************************** .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM 24" barrel, 1:14" twist Case: Winchester, 2.500" max case length, trim to 2.490" Primer: FED 215 ACCURATE 2230: 72.0 grains 500-gr Hornady RN, 3.305" COL (POWDER NOT COMPRESSED) 53,808 PSI 2,159 FPS ACCURATE 2460: 74.0 grains 500-gr Hornady RN, 3.305" COL (POWDER COMPRESSION NOT SPECIFIED) 52,864 PSI 2,192 FPS *************************************************** *************************************************** .458 LOTT 24" barrel, 1:10" twist Case: Hornady, 2.800" max case length, trim to 2.790" Primer: WIN WLR ACCURATE 2230: 82.0 grains 500-gr Hornady RN, 3.600" COL (POWDER NOT COMPRESSED) 60,000 PSI 2,275 FPS ACCURATE 2520: 86.0 grains 500-gr Hornady RN, 3.600" COL (POWDER NOT COMPRESSED) 61,000 PSI 2,310 FPS *************************************************** *************************************************** Rip . | |||
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thanks for the post great story best get and read that adventure as told sounds as though Watts made a good center mass shot just not quite a quick enough stop on the brown on the 458 s did not appreciate the rise in pressure of right at 6,200 psi for the lott to produce the increased velocity of 83 fps and an additional 10 grains of the aa 2230 fuel both or either rifle would have delivered a better whap to the growler than the 375 learn something every day quite interesting to compare data on the two rounds Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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