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Hey, Im not against the .458 and never said it wasn't a killer of DG..I know it is a good caliber!! But I been misquoted a bunch on that score.. What I am saying, and I will take it to my bloody grave, IS that its so damn easy to punch a .458 out to a 458 Lott and get the more needed velocity, and do it at less pressure than any .458 load, and with less compaction..I can do that conversion with a damn finger nail file...Is that wrong?? c'mon tell me how and why it is so!!   The problem with the .458 is its been the only whore on the block so long that some of ya done been brainwhashed, bought the wrong gun and won't admit to it!! and out of the goodness of my heart Im giving you a solution to the age old problem, that won't cost you an arm and a leg, How in the world can you challenge such a gift from such a good hearted son of the Lone Star State, that being meself!!!  The only thing wrong with the above post is I use too many commas!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, I agree with your logic and the need of a .458" caliber to have more than 86 grains of powder capacity. Yes, it would only need a simple re-chamber. So . . . everyone is probably not going to rush out and rent a Lott reamer, anymore than hunters are re-chambering their 308's to 30-06. For all of the same reasons. Yes, the 30-06 is a better hunting chambering, but the 308 works in a small action. Similar for the 458. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Congratulations, stradling,  This is profound! Excellent work. How do you heat the ammo and monitor the temperatures? TBI: THERMO-BALLISTIC INDEPENDENCE of a powder/cartridge combination is a great thing. I do not believe any of the advertising hype about zero velocity change with temperature change of a load using XYZ-1234 powder. TBI is a relative thing, no absolutes, IMHO. But Hodgdon Extreme line of powders are among the best. I decided that by checking back over my old chronograph data for the .375 WbyMag with one rifle, brass, bullet, and primer combo. From the times I didn't forget to record ambient temperature of the outdoor shooting range, I estimated this: IMR-4350: 2.0 fps/degree F RL-15: 1.0 fps/degree F H4350: 0.5 fps/degree F Your AA-2230/.458 WinMag data equals the best. I am really sold on that combo now. I do hope you can repeat that trial and verify the validity of it by repeatability. For the sake of SCIENCE!  Rip . | |||
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Any .458 WinMag cut to SAAMI spec has a throat with a long, leade-only throat, leade angle of 0*29'30", about 0.5 degree, with no parallel-sided free-bore. That throat is a wide funnel that starts with diameter of .4690" where the case-mouth chamber-chamfer ends at 2.520" from the breech bolt face. That funnel ends at bore diameter of .450" at a distance of 3.642" from the breech bolt face. Total throat length from end of cartridge case at 2.500" to end of leade at 3.642" is 1.142". Distance from breech bolt face to where leade becomes bullet diameter (.458") is 3.176". Total "effective" throat length for full diameter of bullet jump to start engaging rifling is 3.176" - 2.500" = 0.676". Most .458 WinMag bullets have some ogive to their noses. They are not wadcutters. So, there is plenty of throat to let off pressure, a tapering, leade-only free-bore. Plenty of throat to load the .458 WinMag long also. You do not need to re-chamber a .458 WinMag to .450 Watts Magnum or .458 Lott to equal their ballistics. This an undeniable truth, an old saw, many have done it:  M70 Winchester .458 WinMag: The Classics and newer ones are long actions, already .375 H&H Length. (All Pre-'64s are standard length actions, that had to be opened up at the factory for .375 H&H, but not for the .458 WinMag.) Just remove the magazine blocking spacer at the back of the box if there is one in your .458 M70 (drill out the four spotwelds and pop it out) and shorten the ejector (careful now, file and Dremel work to match one on a .375 H&H), and voila! I did this myself once, first try a success, to convert an M70 Classic 270 WCF action to .375 H&H length for my 400 Whelen-B Winchester M70. So, even a caveman can do it. CZ 550 Magnum .458 WinMag: No alterations needed. Ready for long loads straight out of the box. But that is not even necessary now, is it? The .458 WinMag works fine with a 3.400" box for 3.340" maximum COL. A standard Mauser M98 .458 WinMag: One planet, one rifle. .458/400-grainer for varmints:  .458/500-grainer for elephants:  Like "from soup to nuts." Rip . | |||
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The funny thing tho is , barrel length is not the only criteria for comparing velocity. The Shilen stainless steel barrel measures 19.5" from breachface to muzzle of the rifled bore. It gets nearly the same velocity as my CZ 550 , 458 Lott. That was just a factory Win mag that CZ ran a Lott creamer in . xxxxxx d out the Win mag and stamped Lott on . . With 458 Win ammo , both factory and hand loads. The velocity was within 40 fps . and sometimes within 10 fps. CZ had the standard 25"barrel With factory 458 Lott ammo, both factory Hornady And hand loads. The Lott produced normal Lott velocities. 2300 fps w/ 500 gr softs and solids. Around 2600 fps with 400 gr bullets and Barnes book loads and 2700 fps with 350 gr bullets. But with 458 Win ammo, it basically wasn't any faster than The Spruce King. I don't unnerstan it either. But the chronograph wasn't fibbing. Beings I did a good bout of chronograph work at the same time on the same day. Going from 1 rifle to the next, back and forth. Ray, don't get me wrong, I like the Lott . quite alot. ;-) But, I don't think its any Better than the Winchester. Its kinda like saying there is an animal that the 416 Whby can kill that the 416 Remington can not. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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There are such animals that the 416Remmie won't kill. They tend to be standing 200-300 yards away, with a little wind. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Best response made on this thread. Not that it will matter. | |||
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200-300 yards is not a problem for the 416 Remington. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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But it is easier at +200fps. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Disagree . I know a few guys with 416 Whby's and warm loaded Rigbys. Their hunting accuracy isn't spectacular. Where as head shooting a little spike deer at 200 paces down the beach with my last 416 Rem was easy pie. A friend in Southeast regularly shot clay birds at 200 meters off had with his Remington. 22" barreled Custom Shop M700 1 3/4-6 Vari X3 Duplex reticle. I've never seen anyone with a big 416 doing that. Not saying it can't be done. But increased recoil impedes good , accurate shooting. Same with the Win mag vs Lott. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Ray unsaddle that wore out old mare get some one set up to do the chores for a day or 2 gather up that beat up old filed in lott throw a bedroll on the flat bed and mosey down here to the shooing camp I will bring the coffee grub and a shade tarp I have got a lott to we will shoot em see what we thing the difference is between the two at full case that will give us 2 lotts to play with promise you a grand time maybe we build fire, you tell lies we lubricate as required to keep the wheels turning at the end of that all world problems solved much less the world troubling conflict between the do not need and gota have a lott tribes what do you say Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I may resemble that statement, or not. However, we don't shoot clay birds offhand in Africa. On the other hand, I am only talking about rifles that a person feels confident in shooting. (I would probably agree with you that if a person was in awe of the rifle and thought that the rifle would do extra work for them that they should consider a lighter caliber. A rifle is a tool and must be treated like a 270.) Five years ago I was presented with a face shot on a buffalo at 72 yards. I had a little sapling and knee to rest against. Buffalo dropped on the spot, though the bullet went under the brain and needed a follow up shot. That same year a little 35-lb.-oribi lost its heart at 200 yards to hot loaded .416" Rigby. The heart was pretty much just missing. But the shot was not offhand. And I would gladly take a shot at 250, 350, or 400 yards with that rifle. If the rifle gave up 200fps it would make me spend more time in double thinking a shot for either wind or trajectory. However, some on this thread warn me that over 70 I may want to trim back on the velocity and recoil. The little 416Ruger looks like a mighty fine tool out to 300 yards, which covers 97% of African hunting. There is always a 338 for over 300 yards, should the need arise. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Different cartridge but same result: 30 years ago I had access to about 10 30-06s, Winchesters, Remingtons, FNs and a few others. I tested them for ability to fire increased loads, using Ken Waters' technique for pressure effects. I didn't have a chronograph so I don't know how the loads related to velocity, but there were some serious differences in the various rifles regarding their maximum loads. Since it was done in pre-computer days, I don't have the results noted on some excel spreadsheet, but I do recall the separation between the lightest maximum and the heaviest maximum was nearly 5 grains- the load being a 180 gr Speer bullet, WW case, CCI primer and IMR 4350 powder. If I still had access to the rifles it would be interesting to work through those loads again and compare the results with a chronograph and statistical evaluations. | |||
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Like with Ray B's 10-rifle comparison, easy to say some rifles are tight and some are loose. The tight-barreled one will give higher pressure with a given load than the one that is wider in bore/groove. Or the one with the least amount of free-bore in the chamber, may show pressure with lesser load, etc. With Cold Trigger Finger's 19.5" .458 WinMag versus the 25"-barreled CZ .458 WinMag re-chambered to .458 Lott, both reasons maybe? Plus a third reason: That extra 0.300" length of .458 Lott chamber is 0.483" wide (diameter) at the end of it, and increases to 0.4855" at the diameter that is a caliber-length breechward in the chamber. That is sloppy chambering for a .458 WinMag in a .458 Lott chamber: Loose chamber. Plus there will be a little remnant of the .458 WinMag thoat to widen the .458 Lott throat at its start, if it is a .458 WinMag re-chambered to .458 Lott. There is a triple-compound throat for a .458 WinMag fired in that rifle. The .458-caliber bullet must jump a 0.310" long and about .484" diameter section before it even gets to the remnant throat leading into the SAAMI throat of the .458 Lott. The latter is a short, parallel-sided free-bore of .459" diameter and about 0.19" long, leading into a 2-degree leade angle. So with a 500-grainer, the barrel length advantage of 5-1/2" that ought to give a little more than 100 fps extra velocity, to the .458 WinMag load, is lost in loose effective throat and slightly loose chamber, regardless of any bore/groove differences between those two rifles. It is amazing that the loose, re-chambered, 25"-barreled rifle shoots 40 fps faster, or even only 10 fps faster, than the properly chambered Spruce King 19.5-incher with .458 WinMag ammo. Not quite as much velocity loss as with firing a .375 H&H cartridge in a .375 Wby chamber. That will lose about 100 to 150 fps versus a same-length-barreled .375 H&H. It's plain as mud to me. Rip . | |||
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Interesting comments for their own sake, which is just a little pee-pee in the  .........Cheerios for just a little  Rip . | |||
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In reviewing my crony notes . With Remington Prem. Safari 450 gr8 Swift A-Frame ammo . The Spruce King recorded 2077 fps. The CZ Lott recorded 2087 fps. My easy shooting 300 gr TSX load of 73 gr of IMR4198. Gave a velocity of 2641 fps avg from S.K. and 2710 fps avg from CZ Lott. So, I was mistaken . thats 70 fps difference. My normal working load with the 300 gr TSX, Molly tumbled Win mag. Is 75 gr 4198 . With Lott brass in the Lott. My favorite Alaskan load was the 350 gr TSX. Molly tumbled pushed by 82 gr of H4198 and a Fed 215 . avg vel.2710 fps. That load is fairly easy shooting. I did not save my targets from that load. But as I recall. It produced sub 1.5" group @ 100 yards with a fixed 4 power Burris Ridgeline scope. Using a rickety old wire spool as a bench. My normal working load with that bullet in the Win mag Is 2530 fps. Still nothing to sneeze at. It just Flattens brown bear!! Not nearly as scientific as Stradling's data. But, sufficient for my needs at the time. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Some of us do more with our rifles than punch paper and report the results on forums. | |||
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"Ignored post by SquirrelNut posted 08-03-2017 9:50 PM." Hey! The ignore function works! Only one on my ignore list right now.  Cold Trigger Finger, Thanks for the load data. It is going into my files. From marmots to moose and more, anything more ... a .458 WinMag properly loaded will do it all. Rip . | |||
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What we are doing Squirrel nut, is developing a rifle build idea around a cartridge and load 458 win mag, using m 98 action, 22 inch barrel, 5 down, swift bottom medal, all round Africa Australia Alaska hunting gun want to make sure it will shoot 2,150 plus with hornady components brass and bullets, and do this hot and cold 8.5 to 10.5 pound rifle, nice straight grain wood, stock shaped some what like the old Holland Holland rifles of 1910, iron sites and a modern twist of the delta reflex sight should be a nice rifle IF you can stand up to the fine boned well breed gal at 8.5 pounds 2,250 chilli pepper hot she will be there for you wherever and whenever you are ready to take her for a spin and when you get done rodeoing she will still, and for dam sure turn heads around the campfire gun is build but not finished now is the time to do some proof of concept shooting and yes it is going to take a little shooting and paperwork we will test her medal in Mozambique on buffalo this fall, god willing on an elephant around Vic falls next spring, con -- may con a pistol shooter in ak to kill a griz w it and some day sell it to some lucky guy like you Then at some point down the road make her twin sister in carbon fiber composite with what we learn and like for the next fun gun build how light do you want that one, and how fast will you let that she dog chase dangerous male critters remember at the end of the day it's up to you to hang on to her once she is gone - not likly to get that LITTLE LADY back Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Iirc, he is the only one on my list also.  I need to get some projects completed so I can get S.K. shined up. New Boyds Classic Laminated stock. Banded sling swivel stud, banded front sight. Waiting to find banded bits in stainless instead of blued. I wish SWFA would come out with the 1-4×24 in a constant eye relief design of around 4-4.5" eye relief. Barring that I'll put a Vortex on it. A 1-4 or 1-6 is nice for judging antlers when meat hunting. Early season spike bucks are hard to distinguish from a doe sometimes. With 4 power most of the time it's enough. Also helps with brow time length on bull moose. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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You really need to try the Nikon Inline 5-inch constant eye-relief, rugged rugged rugged, 3-9, and Nikon glass. The $200 will not break the bank, the scope will not break, and you can buy a 4-figure scope later, if you still want to. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Stradling, Im all for the cook out! soon as roping season is over! but first Im gonna have to plead with the dumb bastards on this thread to please read my post more carefully, wherein Ive said the .458 Win is proven killer of game, my post ARE NOT CHALLANGING THAT, To me its about pressure, case capacity, and in my opinion a real boost in velocity if one feels the need, I do!!, and a better hot weather caliber!! Every elephant culler Ive talked to liked the .458 but only with handloads as I recall, and used it because that's what they had, choice wasn't in the scenario, it was issued in most cases..  ...but I go now, the mare is tied up behind the barn for a quick get away! The only reason I posted on this particular thread is to entertain, I know it has no ending.  Rip, and a couple others, would you kindly no longer address your post to RAY, there are two of us, and your going to hurt the other guys feelings!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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OK WE SET IT UP WILL BE FUN Its to hot right now anyway cooks bullets up to 135 in 30 minutes just sitting out on the tailgate of the pickup september much cooler plenty of time to get back to elk camp want a shoot some of searcys double guns while you are at it I will shoot the 450-400 you are always brag n about you shoot that ducking 577 ne he fourced me to buy cause i am little and a little insecure about myself any way that right there more en likly will get you all set up to fire your hot lott and while we are about it we will run a 450 ne and a 500 ne through the lab radar see if they really do break out hard enough to run with a 458 win mag see how much used horse feed we find determine what this quarreling is all about I favor, for example, running the 577 a bit south of top speed shoots for me much straighter both left and right Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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That should be my new Sig line . I'm a dumb bastard  . No, just jokin. Sir Ray : I wasn't arguing wit U.   Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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IN ITS HEYDAY WINCHESTER INCLUDED AN AREA OF ABOUT 214 ACRES SHOWN ROUGHLY BY THE SHADED AREA YALE UNIVERSITY NOW INCLUDES SOME OF THE AREA AND IS DUE EAST OF THE OLD GUN WORKS WINCHESTER'S NEW HAVEN PLANT IS ALL GONE NOW AND THE NAME ONLY EXISTS AS A BRAND BUT THE 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM REMAINS THE KILLER IT ALWAYS WAS AND STILL STANDS AS THE BIG BORE CALIBER FOLKS USE AS A STANDARD TO SEE IF THEY GOT ONE BIGGER OR SMALLER OR BIG ENOUGH  GOOD QUOTE FROM A GUY NAMED JIM GOOD TIME TO POST IT Whenever I'm with a group of hunters, someone always asks me to name my favorite rifle and caliber. This may sound like an innocent request, but experience has taught me it isn't. Naming your favorite guns and cartridges is loaded with booby traps. As with talking politics during an election year, naming a favorite gun will lead some people to assume you do not favor (or even oppose) other makes and models, and have no use for other calibers. Invariably, someone will be offended because I haven't named his personal favorite, and a verbal fistfight will ensue. Also, anyone who is convinced that any rifle or caliber is the absolute best is woefully short on imagination, experience or both.  WINCHESTERS IN TANGANYIKA IN 1964  Barnes(2009)p.85 While the design specifications had called for a 510 gr (33 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) through a 26 in (660 mm) barrel, hunters wanting a lighter, handier faster swinging rifle were gravitating towards rifles sporting shorter barrels. Barrel lengths 18–24 in (460–610 mm) became the norm with hardly any rifle manufacturer producing .458 rifles with barrels greater than 24 in (610 mm). Shorter barrels, as expected, produced reduced performance levels due to lower attainable velocities. When fired from these shorter barrels, chronograph velocities fell to 2,050–1,850 ft/s (620–560 m/s), in line with expectations. However, the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge was blamed for the loss of performance, and Winchester was accused of over-stating the cartridge’s performance.[11] Barnes(2009)p.85 Due to the negative publicity, Winchester increased the performance of the .458 Winchester Magnum, which allowed the 500 gr (32 g) bullet to achieve 2,240 ft/s (680 m/s). While Winchester, like most .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition manufacturers (except Norma), continues to state velocities achieved from the 26 in (660 mm) test barrel, the velocity from a 24 in (610 mm) barrel is in keeping with the original expectations of the cartridge.[11] ADD FOR THE 1957 WIN MAG $129.95  Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Atkinson, That's right, we should be using your proper handle here. Atkinson, Mr. Atkinson, Sir Atkinson, or even Ray Atkinson, anything but "Ray" alone. I'll answer for all taking "Ray" in vain on this thread. Forgive us. I won't let it happen again. No way!  stradling, Thanks for the latest redeeming social value you have added to this thread. Happy and sad. I read it smiled and then wept, that Winchester is only a brand, nowadays. Karma for not calling it the .450 Watts Short? But I did work in Connecticut for 6 months in 2001, and visited the New Haven plant, while it was still alive. It was just before 9-11-2001, which happened just across Long Island Sound from where I was working. That is the kind of day you never forget. Like the day JFK died. 911 did not help anything in this world, I am sure.  Interesting build. My .458 WinMags, have been primarily used to punch paper, but also a few varmints and a single cow moose. Then I succumbed to gun whoredom, thought I needed new girls. Not so. My first .458 WinMag was a Ruger No.1, my second was a Winchester M70 pushfeed. The first got traded in on a 460 Wby MkV Deluxe, at John Wall Mercantile in Blairstown, MO, 1984. the second got traded in on a Remington M700 .458 WinMag, same gundealer, 1985. A tang-safetied Ruger M77 .458 WinMag came and went, and so on, such are the ways of gun whoredom. My remaining .458 WinMags include: A Zastava Whitworth Mark X Express in factory Safari getup, with a Turkish walnut stock that came alive when stripped and oil rubbed, by Bill Alexander, Tallahassee, FL 1990. She is sexy! Uncut standard action. 8 lbs 8 oz dry weight. A second Zastava MkX started as a factory .458 WinMag barreled action purchased at Boondock Sporting Goods in Eagle River, AK, 1992. It was rechambered to .458 Lott in 1993 by Kelly Olson. Also added were Ruger sights and Gentry barrel band for sling, grey-parkerized, KDF muzzlebrake with thread protector, all bedded in a Brown Precision fiberglass stock with hidden all-thread cross-bolts and pillars. It finally had the box lengthened in 2005 by Rusty McGee. Now I know I should have left the .458 WinMag chamber alone, even if the box was lengthened, it could still be loaded long with the right bullets and the 2.5" case. But her current state is not quite as bad as female genital mutilation. She weighs 8 lbs and zero ounces, dry weight. To atone for the above sin against the second Zastava, in 2013 I bought a 50th Anniversary Cabelas' Model Winchester M70 Super Grade Safari Rifle, .458 WinMag, South Carolina/FN-made. 9 lbs and zero oz, dry weight. I have had at least a half-dozen CZ 550 Magnum .458 WinMags. All got re-chambered or re-barreled. One got rechambered to .458 Lott, before CZ started doing it the same way, as with Cold Trigger Finger's Lott. They all seem to weigh about 9 lbs and 8-10 oz, +/-, depending on wood. My CZ 550 Magnum American Safari Kevlar that is a factory virgin chambering to .458 Lott, never a .458 WinMag, weighs 9 lbs and 2 oz. Based on the above, my next .458 WinMag really is not necessary, but gun whoredom is incurable. Ask Atkinson. Takes one to know one. I could go for a stainless Ruger Hawkeye in .458 WinMag, 3.4" box length, 3 down plus one in chamber, but a drop box protruding below the standard stock would be nice. Stainless No. 4 Sporter of 1:12" twist, just because I want to be different from 1:14". 23" barrel length, no shorter for me. Synthetic stock like HS Precision, with full bedding block; if only B&C made a Medalist for the Ruger, that would do. Hopefully, weight would be about 8.5 lbs dry.  Rip . | |||
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I was under the impression that this was a forum for gentleman to express their views and assistance to others in the knowledge they have experience with. Has this forum come to the point where one member is dissatisfied with responses stated that other members are "dumb bastards". Is this permissible on this forum to berate others when you feel you did not get your way like a small child? This is most distasteful and unworthy of any gentleman. Shame. | |||
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Colt; It's OK. No doubt about half my posts some member or other mutters what a dumb bastard. There is a bunch of crusty, cranky ole farts on here . especially if they start reading before sufficient coffee has been drunk in the morning. If some new guy starts calling names, That's A Problem. But for an old hand, Grace is usually extended. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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My scope problems stem from being fussy I guess. I keep thinking that if I hold off the perfect scope will be made. It will have the same eye piece as a 2 1/2 power Leupold. But that is where the similarity ends. . The rest will be 1-4, 6 or 8 power. Illuminated mrad reticle with 1/3rd mil center dot . 30 mm tube. Built to mil spec for temperature, shock, vibration, submersion and dust. Under cover mil turrets with at least 30 mils of verticals AND horizontal tracking. Most of these features are already available on some existing scopes EXCEPT those scopes have an eye piece that is 3" long or longer. 13.5" lop is on the far edge of my comfort zone and really, I like 13" On a rifle with an amount of recoil. The eye piece should NOT protrude rearward past the cocking piece. Imho. So, a 5" eye relief isn't that useful to me , there's no way I would have a butt stock long enough to utilize it without a custom made rear ring. Which would have to fit the Ruger dovetails. And have the ring height be tall enough for the power ring to sit where a normal scope ring usually does and have enough room to turn the power ring. So, until that scope is invented. I'll suffer along with a Vortex Viper PST 1-4×24 mrad. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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To summarize the discussions and discoveries of this thread to date We find you can get 2100 fps and more with no compression in at least one powder under a 500 grain bullet and most likly in several other powders available-- aa 2230 being the one I tested We find appreciable variation in pressure show across several rifles and each one should be shot with factory and or reload ammunition to see what the rifle shows We find about 30 fps reduction in velocity per inch of barrel starting with the original standard of 26 inches shipped on the 1957 original winchester 458 win mag /450 watts short We discovered that Rhodesia under sanction was compelled to use a local source of ammunition and the south african cartridges suffered from powder sourced in africa resulting in less velocity for that product We learned that winchester in fact experienced growing pains with the powder used early on and were a bit slow to discover act on and implement the fix We find that with modern powders heated up to --too hot to handle -- precipitate a velocity increase of 20-40 fps and this is specific to powder type and load density -- not going to blow you up common sense and testing indicates it is not prudent to load a 458 up to shoot with a hot lott --- will develop pressure issues, might stick your bolt, not that reliable in africa -- if you chose to do that that way cutting off the barrel to 18 inches cramming 79 grains of aa2230 in the case over a 500 grain bullet and cooking your ammo to 140 degrees is for sure -- an incompetent strategy-- for squeezing lott like performance out of a 458 We find that with some reasonable compression most short barrel win mag rifles can achieve velocities of 2250 fps using modern primers 500 grain bullets and current powders [barnes bullets are sticky big and need special work up] Barnes in 2009 Tells us that the low velocity hype is most and more about people cutting off their 26 inch tube not the ammunition factory fibbing to us He testifies that winchester threw up their hands and just set to work to upgrade the dam chartridge to run 2150 with a 4 inch hack off no one ever got paid for teaching school and--- do not expect folks to blame the hacksaw any time soon--- it is those crooks at winchester and I am still mad about it folks have stated that The lott shoots harder faster when loaded up and is a bigger volume case--- but is not the core subject of this discussion-- still it works, is ok, and nothing wrong with it, we have general consensus here History instructs us that the 458 win mag is enough gun even when you put it to work at 1900 fps pushing 500 grain solids The recoil for a standard 500 grain bullet at effective velocities is significant and you will need to consider that you are running a dangerous game rifle with 50- 90 pounds of recoil depending on how you set the rifle up and what you load it with we have followed the all american 458 cartridge from its inception in 1938 in alaska to washington where it became tangible onward to new haven as a full production winchester then on to east africa and from there out to the world at large considerable work has been done on the ammunition in reloading and bullets powder brass primers and tooling to enhance the overall utility of the 458 wm package the choices of bullet tips range from 256 grain moving out at 3000 fps to 300 grain 350 - 400 - 450 -480 - 500 - 510 and even larger there are hards and softs solids and monolithic a hand full of specialty bullet makers and most major companies produce for the caliber then there is the lead bullet inventory including molds and it is extensive , not expensive To steal a phrase from A square ----- any shot you want it can be for the reloader a do anything go anywhere any time rifle ammunition is available on all continents worldwide and we have a good selection of current ammunition manufactures in europe usa as well as other sources Whatever the 458 win mag does not do, it does get people's attention, some like it, some will not use it, but everyone knows what it is and has an opinion about the round, rifle, and its place in the grand scheme of all things hunting it is not a prairie dog gun but if you really want to you can use it for that once you own one and use it a bit, this rifle will stick with you forever, like that first gal, or the deer hunt when you finaly, standing stiff and straight against the measuring wall, reached up and touch the magic 9 year mark it's not to big you can learn to run it proud it's not too small it can, has, and will kill everything it touches, no apologies necessary I like the dam thing, just can not help myself, always have might just need to live with that now that I have every conceivable rifle below it, and most big bores above it, just up here in the gun rack as I type this line why do I have a big block of 458 win mags and why do I keep coming back home to them because they shoot because they work because it is enough it's not the history the romance the nostalgia but all that stuff helps Just to be fair I have the same problem with the 9.3 x 62 and the old honest hunting dog over there on the floor they all work I know I can count on em and we enjoy each other's company after the hunt the dog ---the german ---the alaskan gypsy Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Bravo! I'll drink to that: Rip . | |||
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My riflecrank is spinning again! Some of my rifles change their barrels almost as often as I change my undewear. A Pre-'64 M70 300 H&H got re-barreled to .375 H&H (#3 Douglas Sporter 24") in Brown Pounder stock: 6.75 lbs. In that guise it hunted Alaska 1992-1994, then Botswana 2001. Then it got re-barreled to .395 H&H (#4 McGowen Sporter, 23") and it stayed in same 1-pound stock: 6.875 lbs. Considering SAAMI .458 WinMag stamped ".450 Watts Short" (#4 McGowen Sporter, 23") in same stock: 6.5 lbs. I'll have to call her "The Punisher." That might reform this riflecrank ... nah ... A .458 WinMag with 3.6" box, 1 chambered plus 4 down in the box: A five-shooter. It will be a slicker feeder than the .458 Lott since the rate of cartridge taper to same diameter case mouth at 2.5" length is greater than that for 2.8" length. And everybody knows a shorter COL is better for getting Flat-Nose solids to feed.  And if desired, you can load the pointier bullets long-nose style to equal a Lott in the same box. But with the tighter combustion chamber in the .458 WinMag, where bullet is sitting in tapering throat instead of buried in the wide expanse of .458 Lott case, one can get higher velocities for any given powder charge. Obviously the .450 Watts Short (aka .458 Winchester Magnum) beats the .458 Lott on two scores for sure: 1. Slicker feeding. 2. Thermodynamic efficiency. When you have a 6.5-pound DGR, less powder burned to achieve desired ballistics is a good thing. Rip | |||
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Agree you should move right up to the 450 Rigby You could always load it down to 458 Lott velocities to reduce recoil and run at even lower pressureRegards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Music to my ears.  + +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The next load we are considering is aa 2230 powder driving a 550 grain woodleigh from a 22 inch tube at something north of 2,000 fps this should be interesting work what can we get with zero compression -on these bullets the cannelure groove is placed as close to the base of the bullet as possible -reports woodleigh - so this might help with the volume issues then what is the recoil like on the 8.5 pound gun, accuracy at 75 yards and so on this will be a one gun test this is - A - what I can do with this / my rifle --- kind of a thing woodleigh reloading manual has no aa 2230 listed but reports velocities of 2,100 plus with other propellants - not necessarily in a 22 inch tube and of course not in my rifle so need to burn a few and see what happens if this works out and I can handle the other end--do my part -- might, just might be a real cow killer will it feed feed 550 woods 500 horns 350 barn burners and 256 edge cutters set up just right with a talented gun maker that there would be closer to an all round shooter quit a lot of work ahead to see if we can make one do all of that stuff reliably a gun, like a woman, you dont trust is nothin but trouble you can put up with the bark en and bite en but at the end of the day you gotta be man enough to set her up for smooth running, then nudge her to just the right spot once you get the tube hot she really won't mind if ya take another go at that just right spot tiny little spot, now definitely on the move not as simple as it sounds at first blush or it could all come to not data we are reviewing before making up the load forum member post campfire  reloaders nest clip  quote brown bear -alaska forum  Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Stradling; do you just Like recoil ? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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CTF my gun is 22 inch a montana left hand cast action 10.5 pounds and at 450 grain bullets in the 2050 range its enough just right is 400 grains at 1800 fps any 8.5 pound 458 win mag moving a 550 gn woodleigh at 2100 fps will for sure kill me dead no matter which end I lean on now that's just me, but you do understand there are some real studs out there that can handle the heavy fast stuff in a light gun with a 20 # sack of lead shot between me and the rifle I can kinda light off the heavy stuff so no not much for recoil personally 50 pounds is tolerable 90 pounds not so much it will embarrass me to tell you how much my 12.5 pound 460 weatherby weights, or how heavy my 12.5 pound 378 wby is, nevertheless both seem rather violent I have got a heavy up ed ruger lott that's not quite as bad as those 2 but it can get a little nasty if you push it around much, as does a 458 win mag overworked they are all killers, question is can you kill with them, and if so at what minimum recoil that is my game Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Hey, the .458WinMag lovers need to rate this thread 5 stars. I did several days ago but there must not be enough ratings from other members to get it to show up. I guess that is how it works. Click on that 5th star in the rating function, y'all. Just look at the top of this page, page 5 of this thread. Right under where it says "Welcome, (your member name/handle) [LOGOUT]" there are 5 stars. Put your mouse pointer on that 5th star and left click. Come on you lovers, and haters, rate it. 1 star or 5? Rip . | |||
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It is fascinating for me to return to my first "big bore" after 32 years away from it. I never would have left it if we had all these powders and bullets galore back then. I do not agree that a .458 WinMag chamber is wasted on a CZ 550 Magnum. In fact, I am thinking of taking the one that was hogged out to .458 Lott and putting a .458 WinMag take-off barrel back on it. I am also thinking of other uses for those CZ .458 WinMag take-off barrels. The barrels are 25" long, and weigh 3 lbs. 4 oz. Used to be 1:14" twist for the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott. Still are, here: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-5...5-hh-5-rd-fixed-mag/ Anyway, the other use for the take-off barrel: It is 25" long and about like a #4 sporter contour. Has integral rear sight base and recoil lug and banded front sight ramp. About 5/8" of that length is threaded knoxform. Cut that off and re-thread for Winchester M70, or whatever Ruger. You end up with only about 1/2" length of full-diameter, cylinder knoxform left in front of the receiver ring. It looks a lot like a Winchester featherweight contour with integral express sight and recoil lug.  The barrel is now 24-3/8" long, but could be shortened and front sight re-worked. Re-chamber this for SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. The previous barrel stamping has been obliterated. The new barrel stamping could be done on either side of the big flat on the side of the integral rear base. On the left side: ".450 Watts Short" On the right side: ".458 Win Mag" Before I re-barrel the Pre-'64 M70 long action, I have another to do the experiment with. It is a parts gun, a 1950-make, re-barreled Winchester M70, a 30-06 action that a gunsmith named C. Grossman converted to 300 WinMag. He was proud enough of it to mark the barrel with his name, on the high-gloss, blued barrel. It is an excellent shooter. Great trigger and safety. Good spring-steel extractor expertly reshaped from 30-06 to 300 WM when bolt face was enlarged. The best part is that it accepts and feeds 3.340"-long dummy .458 WinMag cartridges, 3-down with room enough to retain, barely, a 4th. But the bolt cannot be closed over that 4th cartridge. So it is a roomy 3-down-plus-one-chambered four-shooter as is. A Pre-'64 M70 Featherweight .458 WinMag with CZ Safari barrel. Good use for a take-off barrel! Rip . | |||
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