bcelliott,

Thanks for doing that one.
My QL V.3.5.03 has the same propellant properties as your QL V.3.8, for H4198.
All of the Hodgdon Extreme powders have worked out very well in the past in QL.
My result for the same parameters you used came out with the same MV and pressure difference of only 3 psi.

Here it is:



And what follows is the QL V.3.5.03 predicted charges, a page and a half of the two pages printed.
This is for the same Free-Bore correction with Speer 350-grain FNSP MagTip as used above.
However, I have allowed pressures to go up to 62,500 psi,
and volumetric fill to go to 105% volumetric fill of useable case capacity, mildly compressed.
But that is for the imaginary 100.000 grains of water, gross case capacity.
So, one should allow for that, and use a maximum charge that is really only mildly compressed for the extruded powders,
I do not like using compression with ball powders,
no more than using a drop tube, which can help even with ball powders.


It shows H335 being near tops with a 99% (imaginary) filling of 84.2 grains powder weight,
and H322 being only 5 fps slower with 79.5 grains of powder weight (105% imaginary filling).
Both give 62,500 psi.

I would prefer to use H322 for a top speed load.
It is the speediest with good ThermoBallisticIndependence, a Hodgdon Extreme powder.

But real life results are best, like Bob's results with H4198 and 3.440" COL for the 350-grain TSX.

Rip ...

Ray B,

With the 350-grain Speer,
I think you would do well to pick any of the powders above and start 10% below the max load, and work up until you either run out of case capacity
(100% full with a ball powder)
(about 105%, mildly compressed, with extruded powder),
stopping if you get some pressure signs,
then back off by two grains.
Probably as good as following the instructions and data in the Speer Manual.

Any actual velocity reading you get for a specific powder charge with this bullet would be very interesting, making allowance for barrel length.

Here is what QL V.3.5.03 says about MV versus barrel length for the H4198/Speer350gr load above, in 24" barrel:

30": 2551 fps ... +92 fps
29": 2537 fps ... +78 fps
28": 2523 fps ... +64 fps
27": 2509 fps ... +50 fps
26": 2493 fps ... +34 fps
25": 2477 fps ... +18 fps

24": 2459 fps ... 0 fps, reference

23": 2441 fps ... -18 fps
22": 2421 fps ... -38 fps
21": 2400 fps ... -59 fps
20": 2377 fps ... -82 fps
19": 2353 fps ... -106 fps
18": 2326 fps ... -133 fps

Now to try to figure out a QL FBC for the 350-grain TSX with H4198.
Will have to assume a MAP for 80.0 grain load and Bob's chrono reading corrected to MV from 25" barrel.
MAP allowed should be what?
65,000 psi?

Any SWAG from Bob would be appreciated.

Rip ...

Rip ...

For Quickload to work well, use the GSC Quickload file that is on the Load Data page on our website. Make sure that, on the Quickload screen, the box for friction proofing is unchecked and that the weighting factor, whatever it is, is reduced by 0.10.

The majority of the technical information is still on the South African website but I am building the USA website as fast as time allows. Generally, if you find yourself on a page with a grey background it is the South African site and a white background is the USA website.

Have a look at this page for COL. There is also a lot of information on the FAQ and Load Data pages.

GREAT!!! I have about a dozen of those powders that pretty much span the scale from fast to slow, so it looks like the soon to be snow filled days will find me either in the loading room or at the range. Thanks so much!!

THE MISSION BELL tolls, page 91, thank you, Ray B.
Let us know some real world results, please.

Rip ...

Gerard,

Thank you too for ringing THE MISSION bell.

I went to the page here: http://www.gscustomusa.com/ld.html

"GSC has a QuickLoad file that is more comprehensive than the GS Custom file that comes with QL.
Delete the gscustom.bul file that is in QL and replace it with the file that we supply.
Make sure that the Friction Proofing box is unchecked and,
whatever the Weighting Factor is, reduce it by 0.10, when working with GSC drive band bullets."

So, I have to download a zip file.
I have never opened a zip file in my life.
Don't have an app for it on my 'puter.
Then I have to insert the zip file into the latest edition of QuickLOAD, eh?
That will not happen just this instant.

Anyway, I do see some load data for the .458 WIN at your site, here: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/hvloadslarge.html
Your velocities are "moderate" when compared to what can be done with the 2016 reformulation of AA-2230 and the GSC HV at 3.395" COL,
in a 25" Shilen barrel.



I liked the suggestions on COL: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqseating.html
That is the way I do it with the 400-gr HV in the .458 WIN.
And the tip on modifying a seater plug, needed in some dies: Excellent.

Rip ...

In looking through my powder selection it seems they are either too slow, designed for bottleneck rifle cartridges or too fast, designed for straight wall pistols and large bore shotguns. Of those that I have it looks like 748, 4198 and possibly Rel 7 would be the ones for consideration. I'll give them a try but will likely be seeing if I can find some 2230 by the first of the year. But if I can get 2550 fps MV with a 350 gr bullet, that should be flat enough for the shots I'd be expecting at the location we will likely be hunting next October. The elk spend the night grazing in meadows, some of which are nearly 1/2 mile across, but before daylight they have moved into timber where if you have a shooting lane of 125 yards, that's pretty open. Most vision averages about 80 yards. Too far for an archery hunter, but just about perfect for a 458. Although the 404 rifle is probably a little handier.

As loads are developed I'll be posting results both for your information and to further THE MISSION.

Speer's Reloading Manual #14 of 2007 shows the "old" AA-2230 was good with the .458/350-grain MagTip,
and the post-2016 AA-2230 has no flies on it.

"C" means compressed load (with every powder, max loads here)
"*" means Magnum Primer used (with every powder here):



Rip ...

Here is the Speer data for old AA-2230 and the .458/400-gr soft:



They used 82.0 grains of old AA-2230 with the soft-soft 400-grain FNSP at 3.125" COL and got 2429 fps MV in 24" barrel, CCI-250 primer.

I used 80.0 grains of new AA-2230 with the GSC HV 400-grainer at 3.395" COL and got 2527 fps MV in 25" Shilen barrel, F-215 primer.
5-shot extreme spread was 2 fps, standard deviation 1 fps,
at 55 degrees F.

The Speer load is at or below 53,000 CUP we trust.
Using Bob's report of formula used by Western Powders (PSI = 1.18 X CUP)
converts that to 62,540 psi,
we trust, again,
despite the fact that SAAMI MAP for the .458 WIN is 60,000 psi now, though it used to be 53,000 CUP.
In the case of the .458 WIN (no pun) SAAMI would be seeming to hint that:

PSI = 1.1320754 X CUP


Using the 1.18 factor for CUP to PSI conversion would certainly be the safer way to go.
That factor would indicate a downgrade of the MAP for the .458 WIN when SAAMI converted to PSI.
It should have been 62,540 psi,
just so the .458 WIN could beat the SAAMI MAP for the .458 Lott by 40 psi.

I will get around to trying to "FREE BORE CORRECT" the 400-grain GSC HV in the .458 WIN, later.

Rip ...

Hodgdon's 2018 ANNUAL MANUAL has lots of CUP pressure data for specified bullets,
including 300-gr TSX and 300-gr TTSX in the .458 WIN.

These are itching to be converted to PSI by my itchy trigger finger pecking on a calculator.

Hand puppet talking to me after sitting on a tree stand for 3 hours in 28-degree F "ambiance."
The puppet is telling me it is time to put on a warmer glove or get off my ass and still hunt:



Still Hunting:
Alternating the act of crashing through the woods with the act of standing still to listen for the deer fleeing through the woods too dense to see through.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
By my calculations you could use 15% bigger powder charge with 350 grainers as compared to 500 grainers.

Obviously that would not apply to 3031 burn rates as would not fit BUT 4198 burn rates etc.

If energy is the same as a 500 grin bullet at 2100 f/s then velocity of 350 grainer will be 2510 f/s.

However, in general when using very light calibre bullets you won't get quite the energy the calibre is capable of with the mid range to heavy bullets.

Ron,

How does the above compare?

Mike,
Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
The old rules of thumbsuck have changed, regarding the .458 WIN.
We expect much more out of lighter bullets than before.
The new 300-450-grin-bullet loads grin bigger than the old 500-grin-bullet loads.

Rip ...

Hodgdon 2018 ANNUAL MANUAL:

But what about powder charge being 15% bigger for 350 trainer compared to 500?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
But what about powder charge being 15% bigger for 350 trainer compared to 500?

Mike,
Sure that is about right for the old-style "tough" 350-grainer (in the sense of Bob's use of the adjective relating to internal ballistics),
compared to the conventional 500-grain bullet,
both loaded to 3.340" and shorter COL.
But now we expect an easy +2700 fps with 350-grinners at only 3.440" COL.

That is the way it is now.
Stop living in the past, Mike,
don't be a Luddite.
I know you can do it.

Rip ...

Here is my latest thumbsuck to make QL explain this pressure-tested .458 WIN load from the Hodgdon ANNUAL MANUAL:

300-grain Barnes TTSX
COL 3.300"
24" barrel
CCI-250 LRM primer
H4198 68.0 grains >>> 2591 fps MV <<< 40,900 CUP x 1.18 psi/CUP = 48,262 psi
H4198 72.5 grains (C) >>> 2720 fps MV <<< 49,100 CUP x 1.18 psi/CUP = 57,938 psi

Start pressure of the 300-gr TTSX:
Pure/solid copper = 6525 psi
only 62% of the bearing length is bearing so, 6525 X 0.62 = 4045 psi with no fudging.
An "X-factor" for this load was applied for the Free-Bore Correction: -1745 psi.
FBC Shot Start Pressure = 2300 psi
Then the FBC Weighting Factor was twiddled to only 0.49
and the FBC case capacity (imaginary) was set at only 100.271 grains H20.
Voila! The velocity and pressure match the tested results precisely:

But there is a problem:
To get a close match on pressure for the 72.5-grain charge, the imaginary FBC case capacity must increase to 100.523.

And so on.

I am proposing this FBC Imaginary Case Capacity to be given a new title.
It is the FBC DYNAMIC Case Capacity.
It is as if the .458 WIN throat is smart.
As the pressure goes up it is offset as needed by ever increasing Case Capacity.

The QL default case capacity is 95.0 grains water for the .458 WIN. My actual is 94.3 grains H2O.
The default case capacity for the .458 Lott is 110.0 grains H2O.

The .458 Lott throat tapers down to .458" diameter at 3.0143" from the breech face.
The .458 WIN throat tapers down to .458" diameter at 3.1725" from the breech face.

Thus the .458 WIN case capacity is effectively increased to greater than that of the .458 Lott,
by the .458 WIN Free-Bore.

The .458 WIN throat is approximately the frustrum of a right circular cone with lower base of .469" diameter and upper base of .458" diameter.
Height of this truncated-cone frustrum is 0.6725".
The water capacity of this frustrum is 28.7 grains of water.
Add that to the real case capacity of the .458 WIN case:
94.3 + 28.7 = 123.0 grains of water gross.

Dynamic Case Capacity for Free-Bore Correction of the .458 WIN in QL: It can go up to 123.0 grains of H20,
as needed, to make the thumbsuck work.

Now for the 350-grain TSX.
Shot Start Pressure for pure/solid copper: 6525 psi
68% of the bearing length is bearing, 32% is air in the cannelures.
6525 X 0.68 = 4437 psi
Now subtract that X-Factor for FBC found with the 300-gr TTSX, -1745 psi.
FBC Shot Start Pressure = 4437 psi - 1745 psi = 2692 psi
FBC Weighting Factor is again 0.49, just because.

80.0 grains of H4198 gave Bob a 5-yard chrono result of 2746 fps average for seven shots, with an extreme spread of 4 fps,
with WLRM primer, 3.440" COL, 25" CZ barrel.
MV correction for BC = 0.278 is done by adding 16 fps:
MV = 2762 fps

No pressure signs.

Let us just call that pressure a maximum of 53,000 CUP X 1.18 psi/CUP = 62,540 psi,
eclipsing the .458 Lott by 40 psi.

Voila!
FBC Dynamic Case Capacity is 109.133 grains of H2O for a pressure of 62,540 psi exactly.
How contrived!
A lot less than 123.0 grains,
and less than the .458 Lott default of 110.0 grains.



MV is only 2710 fps, but QL is +/- 10% on the powder burn rates for lot-to-lot variation,
and individual rifle idiosyncracies might easily cause +/- 52 fps.

Rip ...

What the nonbelievers must surely be thinking:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
But there is a problem:
To get a close match on pressure for the 72.5-grain charge, the imaginary FBC case capacity must increase to 100.523.

And so on.

I am proposing this FBC Imaginary Case Capacity to be given a new title.
It is the FBC DYNAMIC Case Capacity.
It is as if the .458 WIN throat is smart.
As the pressure goes up it is offset as needed by ever increasing Case Capacity.

The QL default case capacity is 95.0 grains water for the .458 WIN. My actual is 94.3 grains H2O.
The default case capacity for the .458 Lott is 110.0 grains H2O.

The .458 Lott throat tapers down to .458" diameter at 3.0143" from the breech face.
The .458 WIN throat tapers down to .458" diameter at 3.1725" from the breech face.

Thus the .458 WIN case capacity is effectively increased to greater than that of the .458 Lott,
by the .458 WIN Free-Bore.

The .458 WIN throat is approximately the frustrum of a right circular cone with lower base of .469" diameter and upper base of .458" diameter.
Height of this truncated-cone frustrum is 0.6725".
The water capacity of this frustrum is 28.7 grains of water.
Add that to the real case capacity of the .458 WIN case:
94.3 + 28.7 = 123.0 grains of water gross.

Dynamic Case Capacity for Free-Bore Correction of the .458 WIN in QL: It can go up to 123.0 grains of H20,
as needed, to make the thumbsuck work.

This thread will definitely become the single reference thread for fucking everything

Apart from the 458 and a splattering of the big 45s we have scopes, mounts, Quickload, powders, bullet types etc. and now Charles Darwin so that opens up evolution an is it true at least in the format preached?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

RIP, looking at the table above (included for The Mission ) I notice some difference between H4198 and AR2207, which are supposedly the same powder. What do you think explains this divergence? Could it just be batch variation?

Mike McGuire and sambarman338,

Thank you both for ringing THE MISSION bell.
Great line from sambarman338.

As to the differences between AR2207 and H4198,
I can only chalk it up to you Ozzies sending us the reject lots labeled as H4198,
when the lot is not quite as good as AR2207 is supposed to be.
Sort of like Norma's powder lot rejects being sent across the pond, pitching up on USA shores as Reloder powders from Alliant.

Maybe there is better agreement with the newest version of QL, but I doubt it.

Otherwise, I haven't the foggiest.

Rip ...

Shilen delivered a barrel to me today, 12 days after I ordered it.
458 x 14 Stainless Match, #5.
It is the lightest barrel that Shilen will make in .458 caliber, so said the nice young lady that took the order by telephone.
Don't y'all argue with her and you might get such good service too.
Probably had it in stock, right?
It is going on a CZ 550 Magnum soon, Lord willin' and the creeks between here and the Gunsmith shop don't rise.

Rip ...

QuickLOAD Free-Bore Correction for the .458 WIN is easy as one-two-three.
123.0 grains of Dynamic Case Capacity potential from the smart throat.

RIP;

I like that pic of Alderella resting above the thickly wooded ravine below. It reminded me a lot of many similar physical conditions I've experienced in bear hunting here in Ontario.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Thanks for ringing The Mission bell.
I am looking forward to your blog discussion on propellants: www.bigbores.ca

Here is the entrance to the ravine:



That is Alderella, putting a sneak on, using a tree for cover.

Rip ...

Alderella sneaked up the ravine and found a couple of rubs. Here is a doozey:



And a second one that is not rubbed so much:



That is not black bear sign!

Alderella has no trouble getting around in the thickets.
She pokes instead of thrashing about in a swing.
She is not a swinger!
I think light weight is more desirable than short barrel, for poking about from tree stand to thicket.

I am thinking of taking 1.5# off of Alderella by getting her a different outfit to wear to the next dance.
A 1.5# canoe paddle stock would shave a pound off of the 2.5# HS Precision stock weight.
A 6.5-ounce Leupold Ultralight 2.5x20mm scope would shave off another half pound and more.

those are pretty woods.

On scope, I just picked up a rather light Nikon Prostaff 2-7 (12oz) for a Kimber Hunter Edge 308Win. The Kimber wanted something light.

The eye-relief 3.8" is more than adequate for a 308, but should work for Alderella should you want some "reach" for looking at a bush some yards out. It is amazing what quality can be obtained for relatively low cost these days.

416Tanzan,

Yep, the 2-7x32mm Nikon sounds like a nice one.
The 2-7x33mm Leupold is similar, and I think sambarman338 was impressed by its optics.
It weighs 11.1 oz and has 4.17"-3.7" ER.

Ye olde 2.5-8x36mm Leupold weighs 11.4 oz and has 4.5-3.6" ER:



https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...ope-25-8x-36mm-matte

This scope actually fits on a CZ 550 Magnum with standard, OEM CZ 550 Magnum rings.
Mine have Standard Duplex, Heavy Duplex, Mildot, and Boone & Crockett reticles.
IIRC, Saeed claims to have used one for 20 years in Africa, on his lightweight .375/404J.
About 4000 rounds of lickin' and still tickin'?
He likes it better than any other.
That might be the ultimate recommendation for anything heavier than the Leupold FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm Matte:



https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...scope-25x-20mm-matte

6.5 oz and 4.9" ER, 8mm exit pupil, 39.5' FOV at 100 yards.

Are there any more impressive specs than that for a .458 WIN scope?
If 2.5X is too much for close-range, fast shooting, then just point and shoot.
A long barrel is an aid with that: 25"

An amusing jackhammer test of a scope by Leupold,
video is one of three at the last link above, they jackhammered it on rocks/concrete for 30 minutes,
then mounted it on a rifle and shot a 1", 3-shot group at 100 yards, IIRC.
Looks sort of like a 2.5-8x36mm:



Note Picatinny rail on jackhammer.
The one I plan for a CZ 550 Magnum .458 WIN is a little lower and shorter in length than that.
It will handle either the 2.5x20mm or the 2.5-8x36mm Leupold scopes,
and of course the Nikon of any type,
with Burris Xtreme Tactical rings.

Rip ...

The Nikon SlugHunter sent in for warranty repair has been tracked by FedEx shipment to destination Los Angeles, CA.
If the fires out there don't consume it, I will resume shooting with it when they ship it back to me.
I am going to make a tool to check tightness of that spanner-slotted ring that holds the rubberband/O-ring against, in front of, the 40mm objective lens.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
416Tanzan,

Yep, the 2-7x32mm Nikon sounds like a nice one.
The 2-7x33mm Leupold is similar, and I think sambarman338 was impressed by its optics.
It weighs 11.1 oz and has 4.17"-3.7" ER.

Ye olde 2.5-8x36mm Leupold weighs 11.4 oz and has 4.5-3.6" ER:

Rip ...

Yes RIP, I seem to slip over once or twice every hunt but usually manage to save the scope. However, the last time I hunted tahr in NZ I managed to drop the 270 WSM three times on the shingle slides - but it didn't seem to change the Leupold's zero. In the long run, of course, it is recoil that usually kills scopes; the inertia on the heavy, suspended erector tube every time you touch off.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
those are pretty woods.

On scope, I just picked up a rather light Nikon Prostaff 2-7 (12oz) for a Kimber Hunter Edge 308Win. The Kimber wanted something light.

The eye-relief 3.8" is more than adequate for a 308, but should work for Alderella should you want some "reach" for looking at a bush some yards out. It is amazing what quality can be obtained for relatively low cost these days.

416Tanzan;

That's the same scope I have on my Ruger #1 .458. Before that, it was on my Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT (long-throat). Recoil from that rifle was between 40 to 60 ft-lbs. Never a problem, and it's very bright and clear. 1/4 clicks work as claimed. It's great in thick brush or woods at 2X.Pic is on the header of my blogs.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

RIP; I love those pics of Alderella in the thickets.

My #1 Ruger in .458 is only 38-1/4" -- as you would know. Great brush gun, but heavy (as I wanted for eye protection), but still lighter than the CZ550 with scope, sling and 4 in the magazine at 11.25 lbs. Nominal wt, for the #1 Ruger with 4 on the stock, one in the chamber, scoped is 10.6 lbs. It does hold very steady once up and pointing at a "target".

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

It occurs to me that there is virtue and personalization to giving names to various firearms. Naming a firearm is a time honored tradition going back at least a few centuries. But names for firearms are like names given babies, in that the name will become both definer and predictor of the child and the rifle. So it is important to choose an appropriate name. In this endeavor, I seek guidance from this August body regarding the criteria used in selecting a proper name.


What process and criteria do you use to select a suitable name for a firearm?

I have never been one for naming inanimate objects but sometimes names are acquired and bestowed by others, not unlike those acquired by native warriors.
The late gunwriter Finn Aagaard wrote how my 458 shot and handled well and was perfect for its intended use but even Finn couldn't ignore the fact that it was ugly. ( I judge its beauty on performance and had not noticed )

Then Rifle magazine editor Dave Scovill began calling it Old Ugly and the name stuck.

I still judge it only on its performance and the more I experience with other large bore cartridges, the more I appreciate the standard 458 Win.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

In the long run, of course, it is recoil that usually kills scopes; the inertia on the heavy, suspended erector tube every time you touch off.

Especially the initial bullet travel for maybe 2 or 3 inches.

While I have not sat down and methodically tabulated results my experience was that a 460 Wby loaded back to 2350 with 500 grains and with powders like 2209/4350 scope problems were less than for 458 Win and 450 Ackley at full pressure.

However, I would expect if you were to load the 460 to 2350 and use 2206/3031 burn rate which would be a top load then things would be different.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

In the long run, of course, it is recoil that usually kills scopes; the inertia on the heavy, suspended erector tube every time you touch off.

Especially the initial bullet travel for maybe 2 or 3 inches.

While I have not sat down and methodically tabulated results my experience was that a 460 Wby loaded back to 2350 with 500 grains and with powders like 2209/4350 scope problems were less than for 458 Win and 450 Ackley at full pressure.

However, I would expect if you were to load the 460 to 2350 and use 2206/3031 burn rate which would be a top load then things would be different.

Strangely, I think as much damage results from the deceleration from recoil, when the erector tube returns to battery. Then we have them scraping past the windage screw and crashing into the elevation one.