The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 winchester magnumGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Softer Linotype at lower velocity, 411-gr Red Bullet, not bad:  It will be a little harder and heavier and not so brittle in "Alloy 25" water-dropped, powder-coat painted, and aged for a month. But it will be hard to beat this one:  | |||
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Does a gas check and powder-coat paint somehow strengthen a cast bullet for pressure toleration beyond what the BHN number indicates ? Either that, or QuickLOAD is over-estimating pressure for the .458 WIN. Maybe it is a bit of both ? 34 shots fired yesterday, no scope adjustments after the first four shots. No fouling problems, an advantage of powder-coat-painted cast lead and smokeless. No screw-loosening, an advantage of lighter recoil. The last 5 shots with the 411-grainer at estimated 2036 fps MV and longer COL were very close to same POI as 407-grainer at 2170 fps MV and shortCOL with same scope setting. I will not clean the rifle nor touch the scope and see where a slow-moving 543-grainer hits the target. Fingers crossed that double-bullet regulation can be found.  .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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RIP The gas check does make the base harder and resist gas erosion and deformation a bit, and as the late great Elmer Keith observed, that is the "steering end". It looks like your approach is yielding very promising results. As we have seen time after time, computer modeling tools are not gospel, only a guide to get one to the ballpark. Even the PressureTrace has some limits as well, as it doesn't totally accurately model pressures after the peak. I use it mostly to make sure that I don't blow up a barrel or melt cases. I once had a .243-caliber Winchester 88 that routinely blew primers with any 100 grain bullet, even factory loads. I'm not talking cratering or flattening, it was outright pockets opening up and primers in the action. Anything 80 grains or lower and it was well behaved. The PressureTrace would have been a godsend with that rifle. NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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Rip, I know the Gas check has the effect of "strengthening" a cast bullet because it both takes the big Initial Punch of the expanding gases and resists Gas going by on the trip up the barrel, thus stopping cutting of the softer lead alloy above it. I would guess that the full coating of Powder Coat decreases the resistance of the bullet to spin in the rifling and that is the essence of the pressure problem with Cast. Too much pressure and the alloy starts to pull itself apart. Some folks chalk that up to an "Cast has a low RPM limit" but I don't buy that theory. Good tough alloy with a Gas check and Powder Coat, properly sized, should stand the full range of velocities in the .458WM I would say. Same in the 35 Whelen and 30-06 too would be my thought, and I only use heavy for Caliber cast in both of those as well. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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The Maz and Fury01, I'll buy that ! So the PCP-GC "PREMIUM" cast bullet is not so limited by chamber pressure or MV regarding accuracy. Probably as good as any jacketed or monometal bullet in that regard. That jives with my .458 WIN experience so far. Accuracy and velocity are no problems with appropriately sized, hardcast, powder-coat-painted, gas-checked bullets. The thing is back to what the bullet can take on impact velocity with game. Just like any other PREMIUM bullet of any type, selected and loaded appropriately for the game. Nice mushrooming can be had at 2200 fps with hardcast, RN or FN. Great penetration can be had with an FN, hardcast, heavy bullet at 1300 fps. The cast bullet holds its head high. Proud of itself. Teach a man to cast bullets and he will never run out of bullets.  .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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How to slow the heavyweight FN down to 1300 fps in the mighty .458 WIN ? The Hornady .458 WIN case is only 2 grains of water smaller than the Starline .45-2.6" case. The Blackhorn 209 data for the .45-100 Sharps Straight should be good in the .458 WIN. About Blackhorn 209:    .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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The BPCR data, Federal F-215 recommended for all of these loads with Blackhorn 209, and use of filler where needed noted in footnotes:   | |||
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I forsee a shootoff between Blackhorn 209 and AA-2495 with .461"/ 543-gr FN hardcast, starting at 43.0 grains with each powder. Might be close to 1300 fps. If so, it will be a real elephant & buffalo load, in the .458 WIN(-)P, at 3.340" COL. Ought to penetrate at least as well as the .458"/450-gr brass FN at 2400 fps in the .458 WIN+P. Take your pick for elephant. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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About QuickLOAD start pressure for the .461"-sized PREMIUM cast bullet in the .458 WIN: 1160 psi is definitely closer to reality than 3625 psi. Just subtract 75 fps and subtract 8000 PSI from the QuickLOAD prediction to get a better estimation of MV and pressure of .458 WIN. THROAT THROAT THROAT .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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QuickLOAD is interesting for comparing the barrel times of the light and fast bullet to the heavy and slow bullet, using a given powder, such as AA-2495: 407-grainer at 2157 fps in a 25" barrel >>> 1.569 milliseconds 543-grainer at 1300 fps in a 25" barrel >>> 2.897 milliseconds The slow bullet has almost twice the barrel time. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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Barrel time: Now think about the hold / Trigger break that our buddy Sharpsguy has to have to shoot those groups at the range he does it. That is pure Art, symmetry and form. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Barrel time is why I don't try to shoot for accuracy and impact point with the normal recoil reducing tricks. The gun is moving before the bullet leaves the muzzle (cables being unplugged from the PressureTrace just after peak pressure prove that one), but differently if you have it in a lead sled or with a big bag of shot behind the butt. The energy has to go somewhere, and it is almost certain to rotate the rifle upward as it can't move backward as fast. When shooting for groups and POI, I use front and rear sandbags to steady the rifle, but also have my left hand between the forearm and front bag actively holding the rifle, and the butt firmly pulled into the shoulder. Also, my personal philosophy is that if I can hold it together enough to get a good 5-round group with a .458, then other stuff like a .223 and .308 feel like a .22 LR by comparison. Big bore accuracy with hot loads require the utmost in aiming, trigger, and form discipline that smaller stuff doesn't. Also lower velocity loads require holding it steady that extra millisecond or so while the bullet is going down the barrel, they just don't tenderize the shoulder as much. Interestingly, the only other platform that requires as much attention to shooting detail is a spring-piston air rifle. NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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This old dog here is still learning new tricks. I never thought of the "follow-through" to the trigger squeeze before.  Here is just a fun bit of numerology: 10-pound scoped .458 WIN with 2 loads, A and B. A. 407-grainer @ 2170 fps with 72.0 gr powderXXX: free recoil = 47.3 ft-lbs @ 17.45 fps, barrel time = 1.529 msec B. 543-grainer @ 1300 fps with 43.0 gr powderXXX: free recoil = 26.2 ft-lbs @ 12.97 fps, barrel time = 2.897 msec  GI = Gunsight Impulse = (Free recoil) X (barrel time)A: 47.3 ft-lbs X 1.529 msec = 72.32 GI B: 26.2 ft-lbs X 2.897 msec = 75.90 GI Lower GI means easier accuracy. Higher GI means greater need for concentration on trigger follow-through. Compare to load C: C. 600-grainer @ 2100 fps with 74.0 gr powderXXX: free recoil = 82.0 ft-lbs @ 23.00 fps, barrel time = 1.645 msec GI = 134.89 That will require some serious concentration on trigger follow-through, and it might leave a mark. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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I am not exactly sure about how those calculations play out and what they mean for a shoulder. For example, energy, AKA work, would result from a curve of changing momenta pushing back on a person as the bullet proceeds from zero to muzzle-velocity exit. The energy would be the area of shape bounded by the curve of velocity/momentum for that bullet. If that shape were longer (more barrel time) then the momentum transfer would be slower and work effects would be dissipated. So I am not sure that multiplying the energy by the barrel time gives a point of comparison for something to be perceived as potentially equal. Maybe someone can help me out. It's been 50 years since university physics (and I did very well, back then, but 50 years have been spent in humanities since). +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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If the setup at the bench allows the upper body to move somewhat freely with the rifle momentum, then the energy in recoil is dissipated over a longer period, thus to the senses appearing as less recoil effect than a lighter rifle with numerically similar recoil in KE, but quicker (less time) in momentum. For example, my 9.3 x 62 is much "quicker" in recoil (momentum) than the .458, thus giving the impression of greater recoil while the physics say they should be the same in KE (from particular loads in each). The .458 weight is 10.3 lbs (empty) and the 9.3 x 62 is 7.4 (empty) - each with scopes. Shooting offhand/over sticks allows the momentum to be spread over more time than in typical bench-type, thus mitigating somewhat the effects of momentum. According to some theorists, that might affect poi. I don't know how any such effect on accuracy could be measured. Some have claimed that the use of a Lead Sled could change poi from that of a more free sitting position at the bench, or standing. Many, many years ago I tested that using my bear load (400gr Speer at 1865 fps MV). I sighted it dead-on at 100 yds from the bench. I then practised, standing in an offhand position until I could put three of those inside a 3" circle at 100 yds. With practice I could every time. When it came time to shoot a bear at 100, the first bullet went where aimed. The second, from a standing position on a 12' high platform, also went where aimed. So, from a practical standpoint, as long as we can hit where we're aiming from any position, I don't think finite details matter. The longer we hold a rifle from an offhand or free position, the less accurate we are likely to be due to muscle fatigue, wind, mind, or a multitude of other potential interferences. I still watch guys at our range spend upwards of 1 to 2 minutes before firing a single shot downrange at a target, thinking that will somehow improve accuracy. From my CZ 455 bolt action in .22LR, I can, with the right ammo (CCI mini-mag), shoot 10 into moa within a minute -- when I'm rested and the wind isn't blowing. Of course, recovery from recoil is in milliseconds, not minutes!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Bob is quite right on not taking forever to get your shots off. I tend to fire as soon as I have steady crosshairs on the target, though I may space out loading rounds to avoid too much barrel heating at times. I do like to minimize the time a round sits in a warm chamber if possible as well. I have loaded up another 20 of the Lehigh 528 grainer "Torpedo" loads with 77 grains of H335, and decided to add a few more instrumented firings to test out the effect of a primer change. The new rounds are 10 each with a new production Fed 215 primer and an additional 10 with new production Winchester WLRM. I am especially interested in the possible effect the the initially used 20+ year old Fed 215s had and if consistency and ignition is faster with new ones, as well as the effect of Fed vs Win formulations. NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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The game with getting "GI" (Gunsight Index) by multiplying recoil KE times barrel time was subsequent to noting that the .461 Gibbs No. 2 Target and Express loads shot to same POI at 100 yards with same sight setting. Smokeless loads duplicating 570-grainer at 1300 fps and 360-grainer at 1700 fps in QuickLOAD allowed GI calculation and they were indeed within 1 unit of being identical. I am unable to estimate the barrel times of the BP loads. The one trial recently that I did of the WLRM primer in W-W brass versus F-215 primer in Hornady brass was only 3 shots with each combo, same bullet, COL, and powder charge. The F-215 plus Hornady combo gave better uniformity and slightly higher velocity. Using the same brass with both primers would have been a better test. Should be interesting, jawohl. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum Using the 2 different primers | |||
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RIP, You gave me an idea. I do have a few "WW-Super" cases that have been primed with "new" F-215 primers that I could toss in as another test. All others are once-fired Hornady (15) and virgin (5). Inside the case, the Horndady's have a different shape, with a really thick area of brass above the belt a bit, with what looks like a 5/16 or so inch relief near the flash hole. It's kind of like a combustion chamber. The WW does not have any of that. I'll see if I can get some pics of them uploaded. UPDATE: Hornady case interior pic:  WW case  NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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A hacksawing of cases is in order. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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Quick question - would there be any interest in traces using Ramshot TAC or AA-2230? I just got in a pound of 2230 and 8 pounds of TAC. Maybe a series of 2230, H-335, and TAC with Horndady DGS at standard length, maybe? I expect all 3 to be pretty similar in burn rate but it could be an interesting experiment with powders that I also find the most useful for making up the little-bitty 5.56x45 NATO rounds for my AR. NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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The Maz, Any pressure trace by you is a great idea, especially any done with AA-2230 which showed a serious secondary pressure spike in the 5.56x45 NATO, in that article 416Tanzan linked. Here is the Hornady versus Winchester hacksawing:   I reckon I am going to be using my Winchester brass for .458 WIN(-)P loads. Will use the Hornady stuff for .458 WIN+P loads. Must say that the Hornady looks stronger, and maybe that "combustion chamber" pointed out by The Maz would indeed concentrate the primer fire for better initiation of propellant burn. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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Speaking of .458 WIN(-)P loads, here is my latest bullet for copycatting the .461 Gibbs No.1/No.2 ballistics, mould is on the way:  Cast in Alloy 25 it will be < 570 grains and brought back up to > 570 grains by adding the gas check and powder-coat paint. Alloy 25 diameter will be 0.463" to 0.464" after painting, and will be sized to .461". Will be seeing where they hit at low speed, about 1300 fps, compared to the "Express" 407-grainer at about 2150 fps. All at 3.340" or shorter COL, most likely. Quite gentlemanly. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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RIP, That Hornady case is designed to take massive amounts of pressure, as you can see with it getting thicker over the belt. The head is thick and there is no thin area anywhere near the bolt face. The WW, on the other hand, is thin at the top of the belt. Exactly as I observed with non-destructive testing! When Hornady is selling cases again in .458, I am in! NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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Gents, thanks for good stuff on brass cases and pressure traces. I will be interested to see your TAC pressure traces.WRT TAC traces, all my .405 WCF 400 grain Woodleigh TAC loads were considered "heavy" and were measured to within 1/10 grain, poured slowly (10 second count) into 24 inch drop tube into primed Hornady cases. The primers were Federal GM215M (match magnum) and velocity variations were VERY low. Slow and tedious work, but results were important for DG use. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Pressure traces are very cool and appreciated. I have used some TAC in both the 458wm and the Whelen as I too had an 8 pounder. Didn’t chrono anything but groups opened up in the 458 at the low pressures I was running. TAC is very fine grained. Smallest I’ve ever used. The old Dillion rl450b spread it around a bit. I went back to aa2015. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Fury01 You are right on with the fine grain observation. That is one reason for using TAC in certain cases - pack more energy into a small area. TAC compresses VERY well in the 24 inch drop tube because it is fine grained and if lit off with the right primer, you get a fast clean burn. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I had satisfactory performance with TAC with some 458wm and 35 Whelen loads & Cast using Dacron Filler, but it wasn't as good as AA 2015. I also had some satisfactory performance in the 30-06 with Cast and light loads but I don't have a case that I can come close to filling up with TAC. I have seen some 35 whelen with Jacketed bullet loads that were pretty smokin' as they say but the pressures must have been smokin' as well. I used AA 2015 published load from Barnes manual #1 to get a 225 X bullet to 2821 in the Whelen for a season. I decided that I just did not want to push my old Whelen that hard though the 225 X at that speed killed like the Hammer of Thor. I have since went to the 25 Hornady Spire point with Varget at 2550-2600 in my 25.5" barrel I would suspect. Never chrono'ed them. I hope to ventilate a bull elk this fall with that. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Let it be known that I hacksawed that new-unfired Hornady case long ago. The once-fired W-W Super case was hacksawed yesterday, and oh! The pain of it ! I don't want to destroy any more ! A review of my nondestructive findings on averages of 5 cases each of 3 brands of .458 Winchester Magnum brass: brass weight in grains / water capacity in grains Hornady Manufacturing Co.: 242.3 / 94.3 Remington-Peters: 236.1 / 94.2 Winchester-Western: 238.5 / 94.4 Not so strange, but true. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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Member Hyak55171 has been catching Speer .458-cal/ 400-gr FNSN bullets in water jugs. Starting about 1800 fps from his .45-70 Govt. (the Elmer Keith Memorial Load approximating that would be 53 grains of IMR-3031 in some rifles), it is a classic:    So the Speer 400-grainer at about 1800 fps is a dandy "Express" load that Selous could have used to greater effect than his paper-patched hollow-pointed 360-grainers at about 1700 fps. Smokeless and jacketed ain't so bad afterall, using an 18"-barreled, .45-70 Govt., lever action repeater to better a 28"-barreled BPCR, at least for the "Express" loads. Now, can a .458"/ 570-grainer with BC of .500 be sent down range at 1250 fps from the Marlin Guide Gun with 18" barrel ? That would be an interesting smokeless load with a gas-checked cast bullet. Oh heck, I would settle for a Woodleigh .458"/ 550-grain RN SP with it's meplat flattened, for low-BC, close range work. 1250 fps would be good enough for that.  And of course, all of that and more is is possible with the .458 WIN(-)P. The .458 Lott has been resoundingly trounced by the .458 WIN+P at COL of no more than 3.600" and often less. .458 WIN+P at 3.340" COL will do any elephant hunting. 3.800" COL is available for trick shooting, but unnecessary with "normal" hunting bullets. The Lottites have tucked their tails (and their "tales", i.e., lies) and gone into hiding.  Time to join the .45-70 Govt. crowd for some effective, no-dramas loads with the .458 WIN(-)P.  .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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The Legend grows. THE LEGEND is THE MISSION, the .458 Winchester Magnum. Next up will try 43.0 grains each of Blackhorn 209 ? 1400 fps ? AA-2495 ? 1300 fps ? AA-5744 ? 1700 fps ? All will use filler with the 543-grain FNGC 3.340" COL just to see where they land on the target compared to the 407-grain bugholer at 2170 fps and 3.260" COL. It's a start at double-bullet regulation. There is also a 570-gr FNGC on the way for this purpose. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
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RIP, Please never murder a 458 case like that in the future! For the love of God, man, only cut open a case that is otherwise dead! Just kidding a bit, sir. Your sacrifice for THE MISSION is duly noted and very much appreciated. Unless anyone has an issue, I propose to test with a start of 70 grains of H335, 2230, and TAC, going up 1 grain at a time with the 480 Hornady DGS bullets, at a COAL of 3.34 to get a good baseline. Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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And RIP... May I suggest a new sub-motto for THE MISSION, sir? In maxima potentia parvum spatium That is Latin for "The most power for the space". It so works for what we are doing here! NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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The Maz, Great plans for any pressure tracings you can do, it will be gilding on the lilly. Great Latin motto too. I hereby adopt it for THE MISSION. Getting rid of my phony Latin. Adding a second line to yours too. My high school Latin is rusty so pending a check for proper grammar, I hope it now says: "The most power for the space. It came and conquered all." (The Julius Caesar of cartridges.)  Pronounced in Classical Latin, no Church Latin. The "V" is pronounced like in German, like an English "W." Like the Romans would write it: .458 VIN+P Got rained out on the shooting past two days ... .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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I'd be very interested in those results! According to Barnes #4, H335 and TAC are nearly identical in results, and a bit slower in burn rate than 2230. With an older lot of AA2460, 80 grs gave 2206 fps, and 78 grs of H335 gave 2204 fps for the 500gr Hornady from my CZ550 with a 25" barrel. So 2460 might be a tad slower than H335. RIP has gotten very good results from both Accurate powders since their reformation. If possible, it might be good to include AA2460 in those tests. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Amen, Brother Bob. I have been enjoying your recent sermons, especially this part:
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Bob and RIP, שלום לכם shalom to you, εἰρήνη ὑμῖν "jambo" na salama kabisa I appreciate all of this. In addition,
You guys need to remember that the special characteristics of the 458 only come to the surface through handloading. When a person handloads, as we all should, the tables change. The 416 Rigby in a plain-Jane CZ sends a 350gn projective down-field with a .444BC and a .289SD at OVER 2800 fps. That is huge for the moose and elk hunter. Recoil is similar or less than the 458. You want down range numbers? Here are some for 2820fps and 3000 ft elevation: 000 yards with 2820fps and 6179 ft# 100 yards with 2637fps and 5402 ft# 200 yards with 2461fps and 4704 ft# 300 yards with 2291fps and 4079 ft# 400 yards with 2129fps and 3520 ft# 500 yards with 1973fps and 3024 ft# It gets better at higher elevation, of course. I would have to classify this as a fantastic big bore, big game cartridge. 400-grainers are available, but without the fantastic flatness for a bigbore. Course, in my old age, I might rather carry a lightweight 416 Ruger, but those are the compromises one makes. The Ruger, whether with a 23" or 20" barrel, is flat enough and with enough punch to put most any meat on the table. Just saying. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Wow what a thread.I love the 458 Win and Lott. | |||
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Ready Aim Shoot, We allow loving the 458WM and the Lott here as we have been commanded to Love our Neighbor. Welcome Neighbor! Here is the full meaning of that BTW from Leviticus 19. Thought I would share that in context of all the vitriol / Hate, spreading across our world in the name of Peace. Love Your Neighbor as Yourself 9 “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God. 11 “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. 12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. 13 “You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the Lord. 15 “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life[a] of your neighbor: I am the Lord. 17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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