Tell me which one would you build, considering the following criteria?
1. Which one is the components easier to get.
2. Which one (if any) can you build on a granite mountain action that is presently set up for 458 Lott?

im having a 505 built on a gma action right now by ryan breeding.

www.rbigbores.com

i can hardly wait. personally id go 505 fee free to call ryan hesa great to take to and dose some of the best work iv ever seen in a bolt action.

www.empirerifles.com

500 jeffe, on all accounts

BUT in all seriousness, you are not gaining much going to a 535 at 2350 vs a 500 at 2300, with the latter having a higher SD

thats why a 600 grainer out of the 505 is even better.

Achh! That 24" bbl 505 Gibbs is SICK!
That guy makes some nice looking pieces.
I'd love to have Gibbs along those lines, maybe just four down without quite the dropped belly, and lose the scrollwork so I won't choose getting gored over dropping it.
Man! The lines on the butt and grip just suit me.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
.... lose the scrollwork so I won't choose getting gored over dropping it.

You are suppose to shoot it, and hit what you are aimming at, to keep from getting gored.

Hog Killer

ps: I would go with either 500A2 or 510Wells. Brass is easier to get (any big Wby) and easier to get to feed.

If price is no object and you have a smith that actually has built a well functioning DGR before sussessfully, Id go for the 505 Gibbs. It has a little more WOW factor than the 500 Jeffery (which brings painfull memories to me anyway).-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
www.empirerifles.com

500 jeffe, on all accounts

Just what makes you think it would feed? The track record indicates it would not.

Only an expert should assemble a 500 Jeffery.

If you own a .404 J then a matching .500 j is the go............if it is a stadalone then the gibbs is the one !!

Either calibre will work just fine for dangerous game as long as it is built by a competent rifle builder and set to feed, not just solids but softs also, many do not.

The Jeffery will feed if built correctly.

Both have so much power to spare that the extra gained by one load over the next will be academic on the receiving end.

If heavy bullets are to be the preferred option, then possibly the .505 is the way to go as the case has plenty of capacity and that long neck can absorb long for calibre bullets without encroaching into the case capacity.

Also if the action is full magnum length then it may even be desirable to opt for the longer .505

Either are classic cartridges that would serve you well

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Just what makes you think it would feed? The track record indicates it would not.

Only an expert should assemble a 500 Jeffery.

Dan,
You certainly have a point, only experts should BUILD 500 jeffe's. I be there's a great article on 500 Jeffe there.. you could call everyone who makes more than 10 a year, see get their customer list, compare units built to units returned for feeding issues, and display the precentages... I say more than 10 to EXCLUDE myself and others who occasinally turn one out.

But that is more or less a peripheral issue, as the topic was on choosing between the 505 and the 500... which would be your choice?



j

.

Jeff,

Because of the goof up with a couple of different 500 Jeffery specifications floating around (and ammo made to one spec. not working in rifles built to the other), I would go with the Gibbs. However, I would hire the same top end riflemaker to build either because nothing is more frustrating than a fine rifle that does not feed properly.

Dan,
you certainly make a fair point and to expand on that. The 505 is also crippled due to designs, as the CZ/AA 505 gibbs issue with brass and chamber has resulted in anothe rvender being selected to provide 505 gibbs.

of course, the same can be said for anyone build any rifle with a not-so-main stream cartidge.. for example 46 taylor. BUT, to be clear, the 500 jeffe is pretty unique in that there are at least 3 different specs... but, if the reamer and dies and headspace gages match, it matches..

after all, one doesn't expect to to buy a 458 lott and have either 458 ackley or 450 watts to fit.. in fact, the only DGR round that I am aware of is the 458 win in the lott chamber as an expidient.

So, if you get a schuler chamber, you get that..

Here's what I think.. an error between industry, chamber, and dies can become a huge issue, but can be prevented.. much like 404s

I used and hunted with a Heym 500 jeffery magnum and i would buy just that rifle a Heym .

take a very good rifle maker and the 500 jeff will be the best choice.
Take care on feeding rounds properly.

Have a great day

I own a 505 on a GMA action so may be prejudiced. Have never been attracted to the 500J, because it is too short, fat and ugly, and is afflicted with an extremely rebated rim. Of all the great cartridges the Germans designed for the Brits, I think the 500 Jeffery was their own little practical joke. The 505 Gibbs is a much more appropriate companion to a 404 Jeffery.

Harald Wolf has a improved version of the . 500 Jeffrey. that one doent have the rebated rim that the regular 500 has.

.

570 grain bullets from the 500A2 at 2400 fps from a 10.5 pound rifle: reasonable for an experienced shooter who is WILLING!

This beats the 500 Jeffery or the .505 Gibbs traditional ballistics with their slower bullets of lighter weight.

New 404 Jeffery brass by Norma has no rebate, just like the Dakota brass based on the 404 Jeffery.

500 Jeffery brass is hilarious, with severe rebate and short neck.

.505 Gibbs is a great case design, just too big to do on the commonly available Magnum Mauser size bolt face and box width, and it has "issues" with bolt thrust.

The 500 AHR is good, but hampered by Bertram brass only.

Harold and Tony's version of the 500 Jeffery is an improvement.

Still, the best 50 would be the 500/470 Mbogo, but only for those not impaired by nostalgia or snotty noses.

just as a side note my 505 is being built with a 22" barrel and will throw a 600 grain soft solid at 2500 fps.

the best non nostalgia would be the 500 mbogo rip'd with the 500 a.r. right behind it

Silly 500 Jeffery beside 500/470 Mbogo:



The 500/470 Mbogo will do 2500 fps in a 22" barrel with 600 grain .510 caliber bullet. That makes a bigger hole than a .505 Gibbs, and will clear your sinuses nicely, but why bother?

A .510/570gr bullet at 2400 fps will do anything needed on game, and in a lighter and trimmer rifle than the .505 Gibbs.

This is like the advantages of the 404 Jeffery over the .416 Rigby.

I appreciate all of your responces with said info that I have been chewing on. I have done some inquiring myself and it appears that the 505 is a no go with the magazine box I now have. So, I believe my options are as follows; If I want a 50 cal. it will have to be the 500 Jeffery or the 495 A-square. I too do not like the rebated rim on the Jeffery, and I am not to hip on the A-square. So I will have to kiss the 50 cal goodbye. I do have the option of rechambering my 458 Lott and recut the barrel to make a 465 H&H caliber. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
and recut the barrel to make a 465 H&H caliber. What do you think?

It's easy to find 465 H&H brass...????

L

.

If you can't go to any 50 cal, for various reasons, don't go to 465!!!If barrel is heavy
and you rebore go to 550MAG. Or get
550 barrel..You have plentiful
brass, strong brass, shorter loaded length
than Gibbs, should work with your magazine
Shoot 700gr at 20-2200 all day easy.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
So I will have to kiss the 50 cal goodbye.

Don't be ridiculous. Sell that action and get a good one from Granite Mountain Arms.

The modifications to your action to get the 465 H&H to truly feed properly will equal the cost of a magnum Mauser action from Granite Mountain Arms because the 465 is based on the 378 Weatherby case shortened a bit. And when you are done there is still a good chance it will not feed.

Alf,
I know what you speak of as I have fired a 577 T.Rex about 43 times over the course of 3 weekends in a row, once upon a time at an indoor range on Long Island, NY. Thanks be to Mitch. His 750 grainers at 2550 fps and 900 grainers at 2200 fps both caused the rifle to twist to the right as all that momentum was imparted to the right hand twist rifling "reacting to the acting" of the slug.

The torque of the 577 T.Rex fully loaded is not tamed by a muzzle brake, nor even 14 pounds of field readied rifle weight.

The RIPoff line of cartridges (not AR, those belong to jeffeosso) stops at 500/470 Mbogo. By long association with the 500 A-Square in a portable 10.5# rifle, I know this is manageable. The 500/470 Mbogo is only slightly more powerful than the 500 A2, and can be loaded to comfort, effectiveness, AND portability.

Even Ross Seyfried said the .585 Nyati was a "nightmare." This was for many reasons besides recoil though, I do believe.

10.5 lbs. max bare weight and no muzzle brakes are essential to a RIPoff Rifle, chambered for the 500/470 Mbogo. It stands shoulder to shoulder with the obsolete .505 Gibbs below:

Alf,

I really do not understand what you are saying. I had a 13 pound 585 nyati. Pushing 750 grains at 2250 fps, the recoil was quite significant, but not nearly enough to rip the rifle out of my wimpy little hands. Of course I did not try to duplicate the experience of RIP with those high velocity loads.

And a 10 pound .500 nitro can be fired one handed if you do not mind muzzle rise.

Frankly I think the whole recoil thing is psychological. If you harden yourself psychologically then recoil will not bother you as much.

Yes indeed, recoil tolerance and rifle control is largely psychological. It is about being WILLING. Plumb mad dog willin'.

.

FWIW, my .500 weighs a tad over 5kgs/12 lbs unloaded and has a mercury tube recoil arrestor fitted. - It shoots fine and I don't notice the recoil or the weight anymore. Guess its something you get used to.......

Not sure I'd like to own an 8lb one though!

I think Alf has many good points here. I have never been to Africa like many of you guys, but I have fired a lot of heavy guns made for customers heading that way. I know that when I go to the dark continent one day, it is going to be with a rifle I can carry all day long, with a recoil I can manage from prone postion, laying on my back, kneeling with pants down etc. I am not saying recoil can not be managed, but it takes a lot of practise. Most people do not shoot like Jeffe, Dan, RIP and the other bubbas do. I am very impressed of their work and shooting with theese heavy boomers, but I'd still like to see them fiering rapidly from funny positions.
Recoil might be psycological, but what so about the feeling of need for such a heavy gun?
Is it really based on need?
Did not the .458WinMag serve Finn AAgaard superbly during his many years as a PH?

When a man feel undergunned with a .458 Lott, it is time to ask Why.
If the answer is, "I want a .500, always wanted one", no problemo.
But if the answer is, "I feel it is not enough gun for my task", it is time to go fishing.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
... So, I believe my options are as follows; If I want a 50 cal. it will have to be the 500 Jeffery or the 495 A-square. I too do not like the rebated rim on the Jeffery, and I am not to hip on the A-square. So I will have to kiss the 50 cal goodbye. I do have the option of rechambering my 458 Lott and recut the barrel to make a 465 H&H caliber. What do you think?

ALL big weatherby brass is also severly rebated, as much as I hate to admit it, as that is the single chink in the package of the 550 Express and Magnum, and then the A2.

I don't think much of the 465HH, as it is made from the 460 weatherby case, with a sever rebate.

a 470 Captick would be an excellent choice if you would like to go larger.

But, as I have said, there's little practical difference from a 500 jeffe and a 458 lott

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Alf,
... a 577 T.Rex a... both caused the rifle to twist to the right as all that momentum was imparted to the right hand twist rifling "reacting to the acting" of the slug.

10.5 lbs. max bare weight and no muzzle brakes are essential to a RIPoff Rifle, chambered for the 500/470 Mbogo. It stands shoulder to shoulder with the obsolete .505 Gibbs below:

I tried to tell some folks that bigbores do this, in regards to being careful with bedding, it was "poo-pooed" of course, by those gentlemen who hadn't shot anything larger than a 404!

Rip, if you load the 500/470 Mbogo with 535s, i bet it fits in a standard length action.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Frankly I think the whole recoil thing is psychological. If you harden yourself psychologically then recoil will not bother you as much.

AMEN!!!
Dan, we are in perfect agreement on this!!

.

I have spent a fair amount of time making a couple of 500 jeffery's on M98's feed reliably. The rebated Rim is a problem period. The reason the round has a rebatted rim is because of the size limitation of the Mauser M98 bolt. Without rebatting the rim you have no rim left on the bolt to control the cartridge while feeding. However, to get the 500J's pathetic rim to pop up under the extractor while simultaneously getting some purchase of the boltface on that tiny rim to push the cartridge requires a very carefull juxtaposition of dimensions. You just can't use any ol Mauser extractor and have to learn or know just how to shape the BACKSIDE of the extractor and hook. Otherwise IT WILL PORPOSISE in the action like no other cartridge. Please Read FAILURE TO FEED! There is also some subtletiles as to shape of the rails, underside contour of the rails, Follower shape and spring (shape and strength) and feed ramp angles that all have to be perfect for a 500 J to feed reliably. Can it be made to work. OF COURSE, as ALF has pointed out. IS IT EASY? YOU go and try it yourself now that I've pointed you in the right directions. Other variations of the 500J like the 500 AHR have reduced the rebatted rim to minimize these problems. To be honest, I've seen and handled a few M98 designed 500J's when pressed most owners who have really shot them own up to feeding problems now and then.
Even in a gun I built myself and confirmed to feed 100%, I'd honestly never choose it for
following up a wounded animal in close cover. I just don't trust it enough. IT wouldnt take much in my opinion to turn even a "reliable" feeder into a Jammer, which of course will happen just when you need it the most. Could you make it reliable? Yes, using a different action with a larger bolt and a varient without the rebatted rim like the 500AHR. Nice range queen though and gets lots of attention. The use of a M98 makes for a slim handy rifle in this class, I'm just not sold on its reliability. Just my honest personal opinion.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
If recoil management is a learnt experience why did the culling teams in Zimbabwe and old Rhodesia give up on large bores for the shooting Elephant herd groups ?

Recoil has a cumulative effect. Try shooting 500 rounds of .308 from the prone position in an afternoon. By the end of it the recoil will get to you.

But for a sport hunter, shooting 3 rounds makes for a busy day. As long as he is psychologically prepared for the recoil event and uses a proper firm grip, recoil of almost any cartridge will not be a problem. However, there are limits but for most of us the real limit is higher than we might think.

As for the 8 pound .500 Jeff, no thank you. A 10 pound .500 NE is fine, but I would not be interested in going much lighter than that.

and what would my ruger nr 1 in 450 Ne thats can be loaded almost up to 460 WBY ,that weighs about 8,4 pounds be categorized as.....?

quote:

Originally posted by mr rigby:
and what would my ruger nr 1 in 450 Ne thats can be loaded almost up to 460 WBY ,that weighs about 8,4 pounds be categorized as.....?

In a #1, Bloody painfull.

Hog Killer