309.0 grain actual weight
.395 Tatanka
Impact velocity at 25 yards range, retained wt., %:
+1700 fps: 263.1 gr = 85.1%
+2600 fps: 264.7 gr = 85.7%
+2800 fps: 260.7 gr = 84.4%
Chronograph results on the loads pending. They are the same charges as gave +1600, +2500, and +2700 fps with GSC 340-grain HV bullets.

An idea of the bucket setup:



The 2800 fps load was spectacular, blowing first bucket's lid 20 feet uprange, blowing the bottom of the first bucket off, and putting the lid of the second bucket completely inside the remains of the first bucket. Best bucket busting I ever did. You can see the bullet hole in the center of the first lid, the entrance wound is small, the temporary cavitation exceeded the elastic limit of the bucket:

WOW they all fragmented!
Was that the plan? Water is not game.
How about Copper?

Cheers,

André

Andre',
Yes,
Controlled disintegration: the same at any velocity in water. This might generate some discussion. They do go the same distance in water buckets as the GSC 340-gr HV: dent the bottom of the third bucket, but ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Andre',
Yes,
Controlled disintegration: the same at any velocity in water. This might generate some discussion. They do go the same distance in water buckets as the GSC 340-gr HV: dent the bottom of the third bucket, but ...

The geometry of the hollow point is probably pretty good. The fragments look to me like the alloy was too hard. The more of a difference you have between the yield strength and ultimate strength the tougher those "petals" will be to snap off. If yield and ultimate are too close to the same number you get that busted glass look these bullets appear to be exhibiting.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Andre',
Yes,
Controlled disintegration: the same at any velocity in water. This might generate some discussion. They do go the same distance in water buckets as the GSC 340-gr HV: dent the bottom of the third bucket, but ...

OK interesting with the disintegration part. I think the CDP (Blaser RUAG) bullets does the same with the front lead.

Cheers,

André

Very cool RIP.

Where did you find the petals? 1st bucket?

Methinks the brass is a smidge too brittle for an expanding boolit. I would prefer to see the petals stay on throughout most of the range of use (only shedding them at ultra high impact velocity, or smacking large bones, etc). JMHO though.

This boolit design results in 6 (or 5?) petals. Do you think if there were less petals (3) that they would be less likely to shed?

Cheers,
Canuck

cool...

now, dead soft copper

Yep,
Now we know why monometal hollowpoints are made from copper instead of brass.
"Homer Paint Bucket."

Well, it will still be a very accurate bullet that will give an explosion just under the skin,after entry, and then turn into something like a roundnose solid that will tumble quickly, maybe swap ends and proceed base first like an FN solid.

I hope to shoot some cow bison with the .395 Tatanka, and Max should get some cow elk before that. It may make a big wound and waste some meat. Aim for a rib shot into the heart.

The SHARK bullet produces six petals.
Only four were found in the first bucket of the lowest velocity shot. In the higher velocity shots the petals exited the bucket, probably aiding in cutting off the bottom of one bucket or splitting the sides?

A six pointed star of shredding in the lungs and great vessels and then the rest of the bullet out the other side or sideways under the hide of the offside?

Yes, copper is needed, but brass will do if that is the only .395 BTHP bullet in adequate supply. This alloy does work well as an FN solid.

wow cool...

look at them sharp shark teeth...

sharks lose their teeth pretty easily as well.

so what we have is 6 secondary meat cutting sharp shark tooth grenade projectiles good for organ damage and a sharp shark toothed solid for snooter to tooter penetration for double air in blood out holes...cant wait to see a shark bitten elk from p242!

if the bottom of the hollow point is diff it might keep the teeth if desired

Boomer! The teeth will not stay on at any transonic or higher speed. Remember this is the Elk Grenade bullet we are calling the Shark. It was designed to explode into small pieces and leave a large mass to penetrate further.

The real test remains their performance on Bison or Elk. Does the body of the bullet penetrate in a predictable manner or?

ok so a pointy high bc solid with mini grenade topper

And for comparison to the GSC HV where the petals were found in the third bucket insted of the first, same powder charges, velocities verified in the 1600 fps, 2500 fps and 2700 fps ballparks:

Back in Colorado again and looking forward to elk hunting over the pre-Christmas weekend.

As a comment, would heat drawing (terminology?) help soften the brass slightly for improved bullet retention of the petals? Not a permanent retention, but a little better for tougher game?

This alloy, how will it be for barrel wear? Should I order a spare McGowan barrel?

Lets hope this weekend will answer game questions.
Max

Max - good to see you back!

Annealing is the term you were looking for. The material could be specified softer but annealing them after the fact would be a little tricky but doable.

I wouldn't mess with it myself. The way the nose and cavity are designed it is unlikely that the petals would stay on even if the bullet were annealed pure copper. Barrel wear shouldn'tbe a problem unless you shoot a few hundred of them in rapid succession or neglect to properly maintain the barrel.

Looking forward to seeing the results on a real game animal.

Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah, annealing. Had a mind blank. As far as barrel wear, I hardly ever shoot rapidly, unless attacked by those terrorist/banzai prairie dogs. I'm meticulous on barrel cleaning...you could even say "anal."

Lets hope this weekend has the hunt gods smiling on me. The elk are said to have moved into areas 3/301, and to be enjoying their feeding sprees.

Go get 'em Max.
That nose is designed to splinter into six slivers. Even if it was made of copper it would likely loose all six at pretty low velocity: big cavity and slender petals.

The copper GSC looses its petals at 2600 fps and they are designed to split into only three thicker petals.

The monometal bullets that claim near 100% weight retention (you know the one), well, sometimes they do not even open up at all ...

The .395 SH-AR-Kaputzer could have Special Ops applications on "soft targets" at a wide variety of ranges and impact speeds.

Meanwhile back at the laboratory, in the works: A ballistic tip explosive "shaped charge" insert for that nose cavity.

Might have to check with BATFE and my counsel before assembling that one - BUT! - no problem with the current design! "A little dab will do ya"

Will we se a "hammerhead" shark bullet??? ( fin diving bands and flat nose )

I'm working on a couple of new .395 bullets for down the road. RIP will reveal the super secret .395" that he designed and I am making for him next in limited quantities! Very impressive indeed. I am beginning my own .395" Ruger MAX rifle soon. Gathering the parts now.

That would be the third chapter of the "S&H Brass Trio" that has been on the drawing board for a while. It is a VLD target bullet that is very simple compared to his other creations, just three broad bands on a pointy spitzer with a boat tail.

The first band near the nose is a bore-riding .3870" diameter, the second and third bands are .3950" diameter, and all bands are about .1250" wide.

It is neither "grooved" nor "drive-banded" but called a semi-bore-rider in other makes for 50 BMG.

Should be interesting to see what it weighs.

Another thought:

Moly coating of the shiny-smooth brass bullets to cut down on game-spooking glare from flashing the bullets around in the field (loading, unloading, or sun glinting off the bullets in flight).

Also:

Filling the nose of the .395/310gr SHARK with a bonded lead plug would slow down the expansion and hold it together for lower speeds, and add some lead poisoning to the SHARK bite.

How about making the cavity bigger to hold garlic, meat tenderizer, other spices, so that upon impact, the meat becomes penetrated and ready for the grill?

What do I know?

I'll try to be helpful. Perhaps this alloy possesses the properties you are looking for.

Manganese Bronze

Here is a little tidbit from my own bullet making experience. Since you guys are making bullets. Make the same bullet out of annealed copper but press fit a steel ballistic tip into the HP nose. The results might impress you.-Rob

Yep, for sure, copper and a steel ballistic tip would be interesting.

But there is a GSC in HV copper format, and a steel ballistic tip in that would be spectacular.

Whatever buggery this bullet does inside the animal, I'm sure it will be quite lethal on elk and bison. Bison in particular have enough meat that a few pounds less pemmican won't be missed too sorely. It might cut a deer in half, but that will make them easier to pack out.

It is excellent in the accuracy department, I'll bet. Redding is taking their good time with the custom dies for the .395 Tatanka, and I'll be expecting "good dies" in another two months "good time."

Then the bragging groups with this bullet will show up.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
What do I know?

I'll try to be helpful. Perhaps this alloy possesses the properties you are looking for.

Manganese Bronze

Thanks for the effort but 864 Bronze is not a good material for bullets.

a) machines poorly

b) waaaay to hard (not ductile and too abrasive)

c) cast material and unpredictable microstructure and dimensionally it's crap.

d) too light

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
How about making the cavity bigger to hold garlic, meat tenderizer, other spices, so that upon impact, the meat becomes penetrated and ready for the grill?

NOW!!! You're talkin' my language Max!

The hunt ain't dome until it' onmy plate!!!

quote:

But there is a GSC in HV copper format, and a steel ballistic tip in that would be spectacular.

It would probably look pretty good. We could finish the tips in polished chrome plating to further drive the price up. Very cool and shiny and would qualify for a fancy name such as "Steely Dan", but will it work? I don't think so. In fact I know it won't. Been there, done that, back in 1997 some time. I had to wait until I got MacPherson from you, seven years later, to see why though.

To anyone interested: This is easy to verify. Take any tipped cup and core bullet. Remove the tip on a couple and fire tipped and untipped bullets into the same aqueous medium. Take a number of tipped hollow point monos and do the same. Do this at three impact speeds, +- 1550fps, +- 2500fps and +- 2700fps. Tell me what you found. Don't bother shooting into building material (sand, wood, bricks), you will learn nothing for the money and time spent.

I predict: Not much difference in how the cup and core bullets expand. Big difference in how the monos expand.

Tips improve BC. Tips do not improve the expansion of a hollow point bullet. As always, it is a trade off, and the choice is yours.

That's a lot of stirring Gerard!

No one here is seroius but you my friend!

We would be grateful for the garlic and seasoming stuffed monometal HP though!!

Can you make these for us??

quote:

We would be grateful for the garlic and seasoming

What do think it is that I am stirring so vigorously in that post above?

Gerard,
I was hoping to flush you out with that one.
You need to get on the stirring stick and follow through with our plans on the .395.
Macifej has been keeping it alive.
He got started in the .395 bullet business due to my plaintive wailing about the scarcity of GSC bullets.

Now we have a brass trio in greater supply than the copper trio of GSC.

Get back on that stick Gerard!

Then there is the Corbin bonded core lead, cup and core, bullet technology that could also be used to fill the noses of the SHARK with soft lead ... or start making SHARKs in copper ... Don't make us do it Gerard!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
What do I know?

I'll try to be helpful. Perhaps this alloy possesses the properties you are looking for.

Manganese Bronze

Thanks for the effort but 864 Bronze is not a good material for bullets.

a) machines poorly

b) waaaay to hard (not ductile and too abrasive)

c) cast material and unpredictable microstructure and dimensionally it's crap.

d) too light

Those are all good reasons to eliminate it from consideration in your project.

I really was just trying to be helpful so thanks for giving me a serious answer.

I think that the .395 bullet design might be played with a bit further, when the cnc machine training is in order, i will try and get some ideas down on paper.

Great to hear from you, Gerard! And we really are waiting impatiently for your bullets. Macifej has been an exceptional help so that we could go hunting this year with the .395. The only problem I have is that everyone who sees one of his Shark bullets, wants one for a souvenir!
Now, guys, what type or style garlic do we want in these bullets? We can't allow this topic to only discuss grocery store spice rack brands.

Interesting but totally contradictory to my results with 500 gr coned .510 annealed copper bullets with steel inserts at the tip. When fired into a dead cow at 2550 fps the expansion was let us say violent, with the steel insert being driven 3/4 into the shank of the bullet. I'll post some pics if I can find them as I did this stuff about 5-6 years ago.-Rob

Here is the chronograph verification best I could do today.
Using my homemade dies I only had 8 rounds that I could close the bolt on to chamber and fire.
Any real accuracy reports with the .395 Tatanka SHARK will depend on getting the dies.
Redding takes 4 to 6 months to make the dies.
Hornady did the .395 Ruger Max in about 2 months.

Pictured below:
1. High velocity: 2780 fps average for 3 shots
2. Medium velocity: 2520 fps average for 3 shots
3. Low velocity: 1674 fps for 2 shots, with 5 grains of dacron filler

When I get the .395 Tatanka dies I can straighten up my crooked cartridges.

The .395/310gr SHark looks like it will be wanting to shoot into one hole at 2800 fps if I add one more grain of H4350 and get rid of more of that pesky shaking and rattling of the powder.

Some fine tuning with the new dies and a calm day should yield the results you're after Doc!

Rob,

quote:

When fired into a dead cow at 2550 fps the expansion was let us say violent, with the steel insert being driven 3/4 into the shank of the bullet.

Did you fire any of the same bullets without the insert? It would be interesting to compare the two.