come on, lets give the 45-@# a break for a while

here goes...its not a 458 lott!

The .458 Win Mag duplicates the performance of the 470 Nitro express and that's good enough for me.

The Lott is for people who's egos are too big for their heads and they carry part of it in the extra length of case.

Long live the .458 WIN MAG!!!!!

vap, this is not the praise 458 win mag thread, you can start one and we will see who's thread gets more posts, wana take that challenge?

bs,

Would someone saying the .458WinMag is a wannabe .45-70 make you feel good? No, I'm not saying that at all.......I 2nd Vap.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
bs,

Would someone saying the .458WinMag is a wannabe .45-70 make you feel good? No, I'm not saying that at all.......I 2nd Vap.

Joe

Boom Stick.....this just ain't your day.....tomorrow don't look good for you either.

Pick something more powerful than the Lott.
Maybe Weatherby 460?, and then we can run down the Lott compared to that.
Shoot whatever you want I reckon.

Bye the bye, I've put a few W 458 into this dead tree about 60 feet high and about 12 feet around the base. Sure enough the bloody thing fell over the other day. I coulda been kilt.
John L.

come on vap..."praise the 458 win mag" thread wil get some traction...remember, this is all for fun. vap, you have all my respect there are a few other rounds in that class i'd rather have and you are right the better bullets and powders make it a better cart but i would rather have the lott and have more versatility

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The .458 Win Mag duplicates the performance of the 470 Nitro express and that's good enough for me.

...
Long live the .458 WIN MAG!!!!!

..close ... the 458 winmag matches the 450 NE#2, with handloads..

the 450 and 458 are both 500 at 2150... with a ..458gr .341 SD

and the 470 is the same, but a .475 bullet, with a .317 SD...



Not a thingwrong with handloaded 458 winmags.

jeffe

the 458 win mag is gay!

This thread sucks.

George

I don't get it either. Maybe somebody is just trying to boost his number of posts.

The .458 equals the .470???? Not so in my opinnion...granted both are sometimes loaded to the same velocity, but the .470 does so at less pressure, also one can get higher velocity (2245 FPS in my Searcy .470) at that low pressure..A .458 at 2245 FPS is dangerous to say the least...So say a 100 FPS, not much in a 270 or a 22-250, but thats a LOT with any 500 gr. bullet...

But more important is the cross section of the bullet..I personally think that many folks seem to think that 28 difference is minimal, but thats not right, cross section of bullet is bloody important in any amount IMO...'

Having used both on a number Buffalo, the .470 seems to be much more effective to me.

I am not a defamer of the .458 Win. (I am the 45-70 ) I believe it can be handloaded into an excellent big game round...

However the .458 Win. was/is a poorly designed cartridge from the get go, and has proven that over the years with a lot of smoke and fire resulting from failures of compaction and high pressure, this is a fact and cannot be denied by anyone....It should have been the .458 LOTT from the very start...It is the white elephant of the bean counters at Winchester..

The .458 was loaded to hot in the beginning to get the needed advertised velocity and so many problems resulted that it was backed to as little as 1800 plus FPS by some companies, then back and fourth as the complaints came in and even today is suspect as it has either decent velocity and high pressure or low velocity and warm pressure...

A careful handloaded can overcome its drawbacks, get a safe 2000 to perhaps 2100 FPS, but even then he is operating at max, but probably safe pressure....

Bottom line is that its a good enough round, but has some serious faults..If I had one then I would use it and be content to deal with its drawbacks without a lot of concern, but were I buying a new gun I would certainly opt for a 416 or 458 Lott..

Ray!

If .028 diff is important between 458 and 470, is the .042 diff between 416 and 458 even more important? Not to mention the diff of 100 gr of bullet weight.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
This thread sucks.

George

It all started here about half way down on page two.

Absolutely notinng but fun here.

458wm mdl 70 is a good base to start the 458 Lott off of. but neither are as good as a 577NE, when do we start to bash the 577NE?

Think of how much better it would be if you load it with hard cast bullets and slow it down to about 1600 fps.

An elephant cruncher for sure!

If you guys really get serious, and stop believing the old wives tales about both the Lott and the Winnie you will find that their isn't a sniff of difference, ballistically between the two.

The Lott may have lower pressure, depending on the length of the bullet used. By stacking them up, barrel length to barrel length, bullet to bullet the Lott only comes out about 60fps better than the Winnie in Factory loadings.

I doubt their are many people here who can't throw a 500 grain bullet faster than that. (40mph) You can handload both up to higher velocities, but why would you want to?

The differences are so small that even rifle weight and size are the same.

Get over it. The Lott is just another WSM, made to sucker the suckers.

Winchester's long awaited .450 WSM

In keeping with the current trend of "short and stubby is good", Winchester will release a .450 WSM as a replacement within the market niche that rendered the .458 Winchester obsolete. The .450 WSM has got gun writer's buzzing, early comparisons to even Weatherby's 224 Rocket indicate the .450 WSM has a distinctive muzzle energy advantage.

Stuffed with a 500 grain Woodleigh WeldCore bullet, in an effort to conserve the almost non-existent case powder capacity, compressed loads of IMR 3031 yield 2034 fps through a 20" barrel. Winchester's G M, J. P. Sloem Downs indicated, "Through a very diligent engineering effort, we've been able to under perform yet another entire group of existing cartridges, there's no stopping us now. We are now looking at the other end of the spectrum, and considering a .17 WSM for a Fall release".

The first gun chambered for the new cartridge is a Winchester Custom Shop 20" barrel version of the Model 70 Compact Classic. At 6 lbs, scope and sling included, the new Safari Compact is anticipated to be a attention getter. The 87 ft/lbs of recoil, and enough muzzle blast to start a forest fire, only add to the gun's personality.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar60.htm

I think my old smoothbore 12 ga with 3" lead slugs can kill a buffalo will Winchester be making that into a WSM?If so how about my 10 ga and my 8ga

Bash the 458 all you want. It's served me well and I'm not rechambering it to the Lott.

Truly an American cartridge. Why use a case that gives you 30k pressure, when you can cram it into a short action, and use 60k pressure?

Or, how to reload a lott, to get 458 win speeds...

GS

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
...the Lott and the Winnie you will find that their isn't a sniff of difference, ballistically between the two.

..By stacking them up, barrel length to barrel length, bullet to bullet the Lott only comes out about 60fps better than the Winnie in Factory loadings.

...
The differences are so small that even rifle weight and size are the same.

Get over it. The Lott is just another WSM, made to sucker the suckers.

Mickey
I assume you are actually stirring the pot.. but if not.. BULLUCKS...

if so, yes, it's possible to the fastest of all factory loads (hornady) to the average of the lott loads, and come up with a decent comparison...

one specific example ONLY...

however, only a fool would believe 14+% increase in capacity wouldn't result in either the same velocities at lower pressure OR higher vel at the same pressure..

.35"/2.5=14%..interestingly enough, that includes the cae head in the length.. if you assumed .25" of solid casehead, you wind up with 15.55% MORE case...

jeffe

Bashing, eh? I don't know about that; however, these are all heartfelt observations on my part:

I guess the 458WinMag was an okay place to start. It IS better than a 45-70....
I just can't get real excited about "mediocre" in either case.

I owned a 458WinMag once....
But only for as long as it took for me to get it to the gunsmith & get it converted to a Lott.

The 458 Lott....
The handloader's 458!

The 458 Lott....
It's what the 458WinMag should have been right from the get-go.

Let's not overlook this little gem. Some of the best wit displayed of late. Thank you Mr. Faucett.

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
Winchester's long awaited .450 WSM

In keeping with the current trend of "short and stubby is good", Winchester will release a .450 WSM as a replacement within the market niche that rendered the .458 Winchester obsolete. The .450 WSM has got gun writer's buzzing, early comparisons to even Weatherby's 224 Rocket indicate the .450 WSM has a distinctive muzzle energy advantage.

Stuffed with a 500 grain Woodleigh WeldCore bullet, in an effort to conserve the almost non-existent case powder capacity, compressed loads of IMR 3031 yield 2034 fps through a 20" barrel. Winchester's G M, J. P. Sloem Downs indicated, "Through a very diligent engineering effort, we've been able to under perform yet another entire group of existing cartridges, there's no stopping us now. We are now looking at the other end of the spectrum, and considering a .17 WSM for a Fall release".

The first gun chambered for the new cartridge is a Winchester Custom Shop 20" barrel version of the Model 70 Compact Classic. At 6 lbs, scope and sling included, the new Safari Compact is anticipated to be a attention getter. The 87 ft/lbs of recoil, and enough muzzle blast to start a forest fire, only add to the gun's personality.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar60.htm

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
...the Lott and the Winnie you will find that their isn't a sniff of difference, ballistically between the two.

..By stacking them up, barrel length to barrel length, bullet to bullet the Lott only comes out about 60fps better than the Winnie in Factory loadings.

...
The differences are so small that even rifle weight and size are the same.

Get over it. The Lott is just another WSM, made to sucker the suckers.

Mickey
I assume you are actually stirring the pot.. but if not.. BULLUCKS...

Well, maybe a little.

quote:

if so, yes, it's possible to the fastest of all factory loads (hornady) to the average of the lott loads, and come up with a decent comparison...

one specific example ONLY...

however, only a fool would believe 14+% increase in capacity wouldn't result in either the same velocities at lower pressure OR higher vel at the same pressure..

.35"/2.5=14%..interestingly enough, that includes the cae head in the length.. if you assumed .25" of solid casehead, you wind up with 15.55% MORE case...

jeffe

But

First off, these are not my numbers but Phil Shoemakers numbers.

Factory Loads

.458 WM

Kynoch 480 gr Woodleigh 26 inch barrel 2296 fps

Hornady 500 gr 2260 fps

.458 Lott

Kynoch 480 gr Woodleigh 26 inch barrel 2350 fps

Hornady 500 gr 2300 fps

He also mentions that D'arcy Echols loads for the Lott in 24" barrel are only 150 fps faster than his loads in the 458 WM in a 22" barrel. Barrels being of equal length the difference is marginal. Again, an average person could throw the bullet faster than the difference.

I never mentioned pressure, which doesn't seem to be an issue in the 416 Rem, so why would it in the 458 WM?

Phil's conclusion, and probably most everyone here, is, if you have a 458WM keep it. If you are buying a new 45, get the Lott if you want.

Reality, there's not much difference.

465,
Not a comparison there as the 416 has about 400 FPS to make up the difference in cross section IMO...

Mickey1,
I just can't believe you don't think there is substantial difference in the 458 Win and the 458 Lott, all things being equal...

My chronograph gave me an easy 2350 FPS in a 24" barrel and in one 26" long barreled Lott I had, I got 2500 plus a tad, but was testing to find max with IMR-4320...never hunted with the 2500 plus load, cut back to 2350 FPS...

I have had to strain to the gills every .458 Win. I have owned to get 2100 FPS, and have blown some primers at 2200 FPS..Some claim more and no pressure but I doubt they owned a chronograph and got more than 2 loadings

That difference in velocity might not be much in a 270 or a 22-250 but its a bunch in a .458 cal. rifle shooting 500 gr. bullets IMO..

Ray!

416 Rem = 2350 fps
458 Win = 2150 fps

That's more like 200 fps in favor of 416 with .042 less bullet diameter amd 100 gr less weight. In the last few years many of the PHs in Zim have switched from 416 diameter calibers to 458 and larger. I have only seen two animals shot with 416s, both Rigbys and in both cases the PH (elephant) and in the other case the client (lion with a Swift SP) complained about the lack of penetration. I have not been impressed with the 416s when compared with 458s on field results on elephants.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
465,
Not a comparison there as the 416 has about 400 FPS to make up the difference in cross section IMO...

Mickey1,
I just can't believe you don't think there is substantial difference in the 458 Win and the 458 Lott, all things being equal...

My chronograph gave me an easy 2350 FPS in a 24" barrel and in one 26" long barreled Lott I had, I got 2500 plus a tad, but was testing to find max with IMR-4320...never hunted with the 2500 plus load, cut back to 2350 FPS...

I have had to strain to the gills every .458 Win. I have owned to get 2100 FPS, and have blown some primers at 2200 FPS..Some claim more and no pressure but I doubt they owned a chronograph and got more than 2 loadings

That difference in velocity might not be much in a 270 or a 22-250 but its a bunch in a .458 cal. rifle shooting 500 gr. bullets IMO..

Darn Ray. Didn't you know the best way to get velocity with the 458 is very slow powder, and a 42" barrel? Then you get the ballistics those folks claim...

gs