the marlin can be maxed out another .2" in oal.
these 400 grain speer 45-70 bullets have a canalure almost .2" below the front one for the 45-70
there are published loads for the marlin to send them @ 2000 fps in a std marlin.
at the same preasure that means another 50 fps for 3734 f.p.e.

now if you do 45,000 psi hunting loads in the new xlr's???

if the belt gives you more comfort than the same can be done with the 450 marlin except now it needs a new name...460 marlin? nah, marlin wont go for it. 460 ???



the 457 is .1" longer on expensive brass. this idea is to use reg 45-70 brass and load long.

.2" is a significant step up imho.

the case could be .2" longer for my dubbed 45-80 giving 10% more case capacity or 87 grains splitting the difference between the 45-70 and the 450 alaskan.

is it worth it? to most...no but a fun idea

You have a good workable plan here Boomy.................

thanks

quote:

there are published loads for the marlin to send them @ 2000 fps in a std marlin.
at the same preasure that means another 50 fps for 3734 f.p.e.

Where these at Boomie? 400 grain bullets?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=253108746#253108746

rusty...did you not read my 45-70 links?

these 425gr. wide long flat nose loaded to the top grease groove would be interesting...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


the marlin can be maxed out another .2" in oal.
these 400 grain speer 45-70 bullets have a canalure almost .2" below the front one for the 45-70
there are published loads for the marlin to send them @ 2000 fps in a std marlin.
at the same preasure that means another 50 fps for 3734 f.p.e.

now if you do 45,000 psi hunting loads in the new xlr's???

if the belt gives you more comfort than the same can be done with the 450 marlin except now it needs a new name...460 marlin? nah, marlin wont go for it. 460 ???



the 457 is .1" longer on expensive brass. this idea is to use reg 45-70 brass and load long.

.2" is a significant step up imho.

the case could be .2" longer for my dubbed 45-80 giving 10% more case capacity or 87 grains splitting the difference between the 45-70 and the 450 alaskan.

is it worth it? to most...no but a fun idea

Boom
I don't think the +.2 will fit and feed through the Marlin.

I think that all shit is nuts. Use a bigger gun. If you're going to RED-LINE the lever action, you'll definitely break something. I've still got a few 45/70's laying around, and use them for what they're made for. If I need more power and a bigger bullet, I'll use a bigger gun with heavier bullets.

quote:

Boom
I don't think the +.2 will fit and feed through the Marlin.

it has already been done...

dave clay the gunsmith can and has done it.

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy:
I think that all shit is nuts. Use a bigger gun. If you're going to RED-LINE the lever action, you'll definitely break something. I've still got a few 45/70's laying around, and use them for what they're made for. If I need more power and a bigger bullet, I'll use a bigger gun with heavier bullets.

yes to most it is not worth it. same with the a.i. thing...people buy dies, rechamber and fireforn hundreds of rounds to get that increase...

to the shooter there is no work except load development and no extra equiptment to buy for a 2.5 to 5% performance increase.

When I was young and foolish I loaded a Marlin 1895 .45-70 to 2000 fps with a 400-grain Speer.

It is easy to do. No extra long nose loading is needed.

Just change the sensible 53.0 grains of IMR 3031 which produces 1800 fps with 400-grainer (Elmer Keith load) ... change it to 53.0 grains of RL-7 ... and you'll get your 2000 fps with 400-grainer.

The first shot will start to loosen every screw in the gun.

You have to tighten every screw in the gun after each shot, or the Marlin will fall apart in short order.

as you say you can already get 400's @ 2000...

this can lower the preasure that we know can go up exponentialy or get a 2.5% peformance increase.

so for the preasure/recoil/speed anti's...look at this as a possible solution to get modern 45-70 velocities at old school preasures.

recoil will be the same though

get 400@ 2000 @ 27,000 psi (wild unscientific guess i admit) isnt that a great improvement?

you can buy 400@ 2000 fps factory ammo...
this is not a handloading wet dream

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load

405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load)

350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load)

500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)
A non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the
deepest penetration on the largest game animals.

300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)
(Big Game up to 500 lbs. - Expander Load)

Looks like a good buffalo load.

The best reasons to ignore these types of loads is.

Marlins are to light in weight to keep recoil managable.

Marlins are to small in the butt stock to spread recoil over a proper sized area.(both width and lenght)

If such loads are to be more that stunt ammo, get a Jap 1886. A much more desirable weight to tame the recoil. Do not forget a first class recoil pad for this combo.

Keith

quote:

Marlins are to small in the butt stock to spread recoil over a proper sized area.(both width and lenght

i have had bruises to prove this...but i think i take recoil better than most...i have shot rifles that people say have bad recoil and did not think much of it including some metal butstock ones...hit the gym y'all

Boomy you just do not get it. Hot loading a Marlin is a stunt. I have pics around here somewhere of a blown up, trashed out Marlin. Receiver looks like a used banana.

Yes, I have been bruised by a steel buttplated original Ballard #5 Pacific. It was loaded with 528gr RN and 63gr of Goex Cartridge. 24 rounds from the prone position at rams and turkeys during a PBMC match. Saucer sized purple and yellow bruse. It got very unpleasent after 6-8 rounds. I did not let it stop me or affect my following shots.

I shoot everthing from my Lott up to 550 Mag. and 577NE. NO bruises, not even sore after a day with the TRUE big bores. But all of these rifles are of the correct weight for caliber.

quote:

i have had bruises to prove this...but i think i take recoil better than most...i have shot rifles that people say have bad recoilRelative term, some say that about the '06 ...hit the gym y'all

I need no "coaching" on how to take recoil. Especially from someone with only a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 Gov't. I'll bet RIP does not need any either.

Boomy, after you get your 470AR built and you have put at least 250 rounds on targets. Then you will have some reference on Big Bores and recoil.

Keith

as jeffe will attest to the barrel i had made is a damn anchor...it should tame the 470 a.r. pretty well. it will be a slayer and a fun gun to shoot.

sorry you had to see my fat hairy italian wrists...

from my guestimations the 400@ 2000 fps in a marlin will give 60 lbs of recoil at 25 fps...that is about equal to a 10.5 lb lott pushing 500@ 2300
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm

quote:

If such loads are to be more that stunt ammo, get a Jap 1886.

what is a Jap 1886?

thanks.

browning has 1886's made in japan

Let me know when you get one Boomie.

I'm going the other way with the Marlin GG......loads under 1500fps with 405-420 gr. boolits....

A couple of observations.
1. It is well established in the literature and from the practice of at least a half dozen gunsmiths that modifications to the Marlin 1895 cartridge carrier, bolt face, ejector and ejection port will allow it to cycle 2.75" 45-70 rounds. It is far easier to get it to reliably cycle 2.67" rounds though. Mic McPherson describes the process in the October 1998 issue of Precision Shooting.
2. Why is it that when someone talks about loading the Marlin 1895 45-70 to 40,000 CUP it is hotrodding or a stunt, yet when one loads a 270 Win bolt action rifle to 65,000 PSI it is obtaining the potential of the cartridge/rifle combination? What about loading the Marlin 444 rifle to 44,000 CUP? It is also well established in the literature that the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP. I've been shooting such loads in my 1977-vintage Marlin 1895 for ten years and it doesn't seem to have come apart. There must be alot of Marlin 444s and Marlin 1895M, MR and MXLRs coming apart, because these are regularly loaded to 42,000+ PSI. The typical loads used in them must be stunts as well. Must be something about the 45-70 that makes the Marlin 336/444/1895 action not be able to withstand the same forces exerted by other cartridges.

Winchester also had 1886s made in Japan.

good chimeing jackfish...

one reason i brought up the xlr's and their v threads...

dave clay seemed adament the square threads were just as strong but like i said...you could do the same thing with the higher preasure rated 450 marlin to make the 460....what, barracuda? rock cod? anyway a long loaded or longer brass 450 marlin. if you wanter you could set back the barrel a tad and use shortened win mag brass...kinda like the 458 american 2" but it will be the 458 american 2.2"

one of the goals of this idea was to have the same everything except loads and smithing but that could be done too.

I've been shooting a Dave Clay modified .45-70 for years. It is also melded and every possible joint is sliver soldered the action is slicked up and the trigger is sweet as can be.

It pushes 400gr bullets at about 2000 if I want to lean on them. But I much prefer to shoot them at 1800. It is more controllable and it kills hogs with great aplomb.

It is a fantastic heavy timber elk gun and a very nice hog swatter.

And it still ain't DG legal in Africa. PERIOD.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
good chimeing jackfish...

one reason i brought up the xlr's and their v threads...

dave clay seemed adament the square threads were just as strong but like i said...you could do the same thing with the higher preasure rated 450 marlin to make the 460....what, barracuda? rock cod? anyway a long loaded or longer brass 450 marlin. if you wanter you could set back the barrel a tad and use shortened win mag brass...kinda like the 458 american 2" but it will be the 458 american 2.2"

one of the goals of this idea was to have the same everything except loads and smithing but that could be done too.

I think the square vs. vee threads are more a matter of keeping the two calibers separated in the factory than anything to do with inherent strength of either. There is no reason to try to use elongated brass for either a 45-70 or 450 Marlin in Marlin 1895 rifles which have been modified to the longer COL. Either will shoot the same leaving the brass as is and just loading to the longer COL. Just as the 457 WWG Magnum is superfluous because a 45-70 with the bullet seated to a 2.67" COL will do the exact same thing, you don't need to use longer brass with the 45-70 or 450 Marlin. The longer overall cartridge length is enough to gain the additional case capacity. You can't use 458 Winchester Magnum brass for the 450 Marlin, the belts are different. In addition, while the 450 Marlin has a SAAMI pressure specification of 43,500 PSI it is really not that much different than the 45-70 at 40,000 to be calling it "higher pressure rated." 40,000 CUP roughly translates into 43,000 PSI, and the 45-70 has a larger crosssectional area interfacing the bolt. Hence, the 45-70 at 40,000 CUP is exerting about the same forces on the rifle action as the 450 Marlin is at 43,500 PSI.

surestrike....i neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever said in this thread d.g. just my musings on getting more boom or more room.

by the time i get to africa there wont be any more animals left to hunt

Don't worry Mr. Stick I'll save one or two for you.

If you'd quit spending all of your money on these wildcat Boom Stick especiales you could go to Africa. Maybe even before the end of the century.

All I have to contribute to this thread is that when I loaded my Marlin 45/70 to 1800fps with a hardcast 420gr ... all of a sudden the 458Lott started to feel like a pussy cat. Recovering from recoil was difficult to say the least
Cheers...
Con

Hey Boomie you forgot to read the fine print on the "published load"!

405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load)

When using Marlin Guide Guns with 18.5" barrels deduct an average of 50 fps with the above loads.

Guess you have to have a 22 inch barreled Marlin to get that 2000 FPS.

Let me know when you run some of those loads over a chronograph.

yes i am fully aware of the 22" rusty...

in a guide gun with the long loaded 45-70 you will make up some of the loss.

this project would be best suited to the xlr with a 22" barrel. the xlr's are getting better quality from what i gather.

my thinking is this long loaded version could recapture what is lost due to the short pipe with powders suited to short lengths.

i have been musing this one for a while and have thought of about every angle but the soundboarding here helps to make the idea more credible with the great input...yours too

Boomie,Boomie, Boomie- Quit trying to impress us with the 45-70 crap. Been there, done THAT. IT's STILL CRAP. Even you know a Marlin Guide gun just doesn't cut it as a big bore. Cut the crap that you can't afford a real gun either. Nobody buys it. For Gods sake step up and buy, borrow, steal a real big bore and learn how to shoot it. Quit spending your time on worthless efforts like this man! For all the time you spend on this board, pse do something, anything other than beguile us with the mighty 45-70. -Rob

Mr Stick,

My .45-70 is an 1895 CB cut to 22" it makes for a very elegant lever thumper. After Dave puts his mojo on it the rifle is a truly a redneck gentlemen's hog thumper extraordinarie..

In my opion as nice a dog turd as can be had for the money.

Boomie,
while you MIGHT can load up a levergun 45/70 to a BASE or BOTTOM thresshold, it is not a long term solution.. it is a low SD, barely 2000dps load, with a 400 gr bullet.

make a 450gr .458 bullet go AT LEAST 2150, and that will make it 'work"

which, if you want a 45/70, that means a siamese mauser to get there..


or build a 450 alaskan, which will DO that..

But, my basic fundamental problem with a lever gun is the large number of PARTS to BREAK in africa.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Boomie,
while you MIGHT can load up a levergun 45/70 to a BASE or BOTTOM thresshold, it is not a long term solution.. it is a low SD, barely 2000dps load, with a 400 gr bullet.

make a 450gr .458 bullet go AT LEAST 2150, and that will make it 'work"

which, if you want a 45/70, that means a siamese mauser to get there..


or build a 450 alaskan, which will DO that..

But, my basic fundamental problem with a lever gun is the large number of PARTS to BREAK in africa.

jeffe

yes the 450 has better performance granted and this will split the difference exactly...

thanks for the input jeffe. the leverguns reliability is not in question and if going to africa you could throw some spare parts and a screw driver in the suitcase but like i said, reliability is a leverguns middle name. if you were to do the 450 you might as well do one based on the rigby case...this was a way to get more room or more boom like i said with the same brass/dies. i have purposely left out the africa/d.g. thing because that clouds the issue and the point of maxing out the 45-70 and the marlin. if the wild wast 457 magnum is a viable option than this is twice that.

Boomie,
Let me know when you are going. I have a Marlin 45/70 you can borrow.

Boomie,
actually had a friend take a m71 (recent browning) in 450 alaskan to zim. The sight was knocked out of alignment repeatedly, the loading port actually broke (busted off), and then was tough to feed, and essentially became a single shot. While it took a sable and a warthog, "reliable" ws not the words used to describe it.... though if you took TWO of the 4 letter words mentioning it, you could get the 8 letters for reliable.

There are far better choices, in fact, nearly ANYTHING is a better choice than a below marginable loading and a complex rifle.

Here's what Richard told me, and dan has in less kind terms "Once you shoot a large HEAVY SKINNED animal, you will want nothing but the largest caliber, bullet, and velocity that you can handle from any position"...

can a levergun work in africa... sure, why not.

has it? YEP!!!

but, then again, boddington wrote that a friend of his killed a cape graveyard dead with a 12ga slug.

If you want to take a deer/bear rifle to africa, well, you have been informed it is a lesser choice.

let's look at what the 45/70 hopped up is DESIGNED to kill a bear or a moose.

a HUGE kodiak is 1500# ... that is a BABY elephant, 1/4 of a hippo, 3/4 of a cape buffalo and 3/4 of an eland.

A HUGE black bear is 500#...

a huge moose is 1600

In short, hopped up, light for caliber loads, are really good medicene for thin skinned game.

but, stuff that has to fight lions to get a drink of water are a different level of beasts.


jeffe