zimguide,

I take it that you feel you are restricted to a factory rifle and ammo currently available in zim. Based on that restriction, you need to decide how heavy a rifle you can or want to carry day in and day out. If you want one that is light (7.5 to 8.5 lbs.) and factory made you will find only 45 Win. available. The most available 458 lott to you will probably be a CZ and there you are looking at a much heavier rifle and it will have a very long barrel of 25". That length affects both weight and carryability. Possibly you can find someone locally who can shortin it but then you will also need to have the front sight raised or rear sight lowered. I hope I remember that correctly from the one I had shortened. If you decided on a Win mag then I would use Hornady DGS solid ammo in it. Probably one box will last a lifetime for you except that you should replace it for fresh ammo every five years at least. I wouldn't discount you being able to use reloaded ammo in either caliber. Go down to the nearest shooting club if in Harare or Bulawayo and you can find someone that will be happy to load some ammo for you at a very reasonable cost. If the Lott is your choice then the Woodleigh 550 grain bullet is available in SA and can be sourced. No one loads that bullet in factory Lott loads to my knowledge.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
In equal rifles is there really anyone who would buy a 458 Winchester over a 458 Lott. I can't see a single reason why.

Exactly - my view as well.

My 458 win is a Browning Safari Grade. It weighs 7 lbs 13 Ozs. It doesn't have any more felt recoil then one of my 10 lb. plus doubles in 465 or 470. It can only be due to the shape of the stock. It uses a M-98 Mauser action and has the short mag box. A Lott wouldn't fit in there with out a huge amount of magazine work and I would shutter to think of the recoil of a Lott in that light a rifle. I doubt you could find a factory Lott that light. That is a big advantage to me.

465H&H

I bought a FN Browning 458 win. mag after picking up a bit of information on AR, including 465 H&H's posts, etc. These rifles are worth taking a look at, 7.5-8lbs, FN action, and nicely finished they make a really nice handling 458 win. mag. I recently picked up a 375 H&H FN Browning to go along with the 458.

In my opinion, 458's either win. mag or Lott work just fine, so for me it is all about the rifle including handling, weight, balance, accuracy, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a Lott as nice as these Brownings 458s for the money....and well worth picking up over a Lott, in my opinion.

Just saw this! You dog you! Found a Browning Safari in 375? I have benn looking for ever. Please let me know if you see another.

465H&H

Winchester should have designed the 458 as full lenght Lott or similar


Winchester had a choice of 2 cartridges which they designed neither 1 which became the 458 winchester the 450 watts short or what was later made famous bur was already out for 30 years the 450 watts aka the 458 lott

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Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

So any shot i make from now on will BE FRONTAL BRAIN CHARGING most likely be on elephant, possible buff,lion etc. All will be at 10m or less, further than that and national parks will have my hide! And it will be to protect my guests (usually 3-6 people) So with that in mind, that is why i am asking these questions as i now want a larger caliber for piece of mind should the situation arise when i do have to make that shot.I dont reload! And i am like i said deciding between a 458WM or a LOTT so please dont tell me about any other weapons, unless you want to buy them for me!! The WM and LOTT are in my price bracket!!

Hunters been complaining about the 458WM for years - why even ask such a question now the complaints have been addressed with the Lott. The concensus clearly is that Winchester should have designed the 458 as full lenght Lott or similar. For a new gun, buy the Lott, it is a no brainer. If you get a bargin on a used 458WM, thats another question, but for a new gun like CZ - I think if you re-read this thread or better yet ask around Zim, the answer is clear. Even for future resale (you are not rich), the WM is 2nd best, the Lott will sell better. The Lott will handle any ammo WM or Lott.

I know you dont want to hear this, but if I had your job I would be thinking about a 416Rigby. But, you already decided, so I will drop it.

The only hunters who have complained about the 458wm in the last eight or ten years are those who have not loaded or hunted with it.

Interestingly, those same dupes who have complained about the 458wm over the last decade often hold the 450NE, the original smokeless elephant cartridge and the benchmark elephant cartridge, and 470NE in high esteem.

Guess what? The reasonably well loaded 458wm out performs either of the venerated NE rounds.

This suprises the many uninformed, inexperienced internet surfing, regurgitating arm chair experts.

Zimguide,

465H&H has written that 550's are not loaded in factory rounds, but I think he may be mistaken, I believe Norma loads the 550 Woodleighs in its PH line of ammo.

A 458wm will do just fine so long as you shoot good loads, factory or handloads, with 450 grainers at 2200fps+ or 500's at 2100fps+.

But if you are stuck on more is better, and stuck with limited ammo selection, the Lott makes more sense, especially if you are young and fit and a ten or eleven pound rifle doesn't seem like an anchor. Confidence is an important factor in stopping a charge, as you probably know having done so.

JPK

Norma does not load the 550 grain Woodleigh in the 458 Lott. 500 is max.

465H&H

465,
until recently, norma did load the 550gr woodleigh .. don't know when that changed, but it was listed in the last 6 months on their website.

Norma I think still does in the African ph ammo 550 gain solid only but loaded to a mere 2000-2100 hope thats enough since its not a super dooper 2300

Just checked and didn't see it listed.

465H&H

It seems Norma has dropped the 550gr Lott loading. They only load the 500's and only to 2100fps at that. That is easy 458wm territory.

Interestingly, they still show the 450 Rigby loaded with the 550 grainers, but only at 2100fps. That's less than a Lott could do with the 550's.

JPK

How about Ackley a 2.6" ish case to get close to the Lott capacity that will shoot 458 Win Mag factory ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
It seems Norma has dropped the 550gr Lott loading. They only load the 500's and only to 2100fps at that. That is easy 458wm territory.

Interestingly, they still show the 450 Rigby loaded with the 550 grainers, but only at 2100fps. That's less than a Lott could do with the 550's.

JPK

I looked at that Norma data too. Seems odd that they loaded it all to the same velocity. Perhaps the integrity of the bullets requires that?

Perhaps this has been posted and I missed ...

If you load a 458 Lott and a 450 Rigby/Dakota to the same velocity with the same bullet, is recoil the same? What I am wondering is if the G-force of a larger capacity case is less giving the shooter the same recoil energy over a different period of time (long shove versus a hard sharp kick).

Thanks!
Sid

quote:

If you load a 458 Lott and a 450 Rigby/Dakota to the same velocity with the same bullet, is recoil the same?

If the powder mass and everything else is eqv. - yes.

only if the powder charge is the same .. otherwise, you get more recoil, from the more powder, to get the same results ..

which is why a 505gibb kicks more than more other 50s at the same vel

and why the 500jeffe kicks so much MORE than a 458 lott.. its not just the 35gr at ~50fps more.. its also the additional 40grains of powder to get there

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
It seems Norma has dropped the 550gr Lott loading. They only load the 500's and only to 2100fps at that. That is easy 458wm territory.

Interestingly, they still show the 450 Rigby loaded with the 550 grainers, but only at 2100fps. That's less than a Lott could do with the 550's.

JPK

I looked at that Norma data too. Seems odd that they loaded it all to the same velocity. Perhaps the integrity of the bullets requires that?

They load Woodleighs. The solids are good at higher velocity than they are loading them. The softs are ok too, but there are better choices for faster velocity.

JPK

I sure hope the guy asking for advise does not read this thread and get the idea that a 7.5lb 458 makes sense without shooting one first. Or get the idea the 458WM kicks significantly less than the 458Lott.

Obviously either 458 will work. He did not ask what was wrong with one. He asked which was better. He excluded reloading as an option.

+ Ammo availability: Lott handles both.

+ Power: Lott is right in middle of the pack. The WM is bare minimum, lowest 45 option on the table.

+ Weight and balance: should be the same (within reason), depending on builder preference.

I'm absolutely amazed that what started out as what I thought was a simple question is now up to PAGE THREE!