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One of Us |
I believe if a 500 gr bullet at 2150 FPS is the benchmark for elephant hunting with a 458 caliber bullet; "IF" then. it is not an issue with a 458 in 2010. It is the equal of a 470 NE or a 450 X 3 1/4 NE. What you gain over a Lott; Perhaps less recoil in a like weighted rifle and perhaps a shorter bolt throw. | |||
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one of us |
Let me summarize. The Lott is good. The .458 win mag is Good. Focus, concentrate on Accurate shooting with either round and GOOD things happen.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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One of Us |
I did, their is just something else to an M70 .458 win mag, a great classic, some people buy rifles on sentiment. 400gr GS HV 2400fps, 500gr GS Solid at 2200... what more do you need? | |||
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One of Us |
The main ingredient!
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One of Us |
Exactly - my view as well. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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One of Us |
You guys have me thinking a bit. If you can consider such a gun being a bit more for a universal application then I can see an advantage to a Lott especially using 450 gr bullets. Most folks will say the big slow moving slugs do not generate much shock on something like a lion. You can probably get 2400 FPS and change with a 450 gr soft in a Lott making it a better performer for that application. So as a universal round it does have some advantages. A 450 swift @ 2400 FPS would be a formidable loading for many applications. | |||
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One of Us |
My 458 win is a Browning Safari Grade. It weighs 7 lbs 13 Ozs. It doesn't have any more felt recoil then one of my 10 lb. plus doubles in 465 or 470. It can only be due to the shape of the stock. It uses a M-98 Mauser action and has the short mag box. A Lott wouldn't fit in there with out a huge amount of magazine work and I would shutter to think of the recoil of a Lott in that light a rifle. I doubt you could find a factory Lott that light. That is a big advantage to me. 465H&H | |||
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Moderator |
465 - $400 for a custom bottom metal, and 3-5 hours for machine work.. or you could do the markx/charles daly approach of opening the mag .. call it a grand for the rework... not anything new, just very expensive "per inch" i can imagine the recoil .. sharp and fast not to hijack on the ARs .. though this IS what I designed them to .. standard length cases with full length capacities then again, rechamber a 458 winmag to 458 AR, and get a lott with next to nil feeding work needed .. and go even faster than a lott ... my first 458 ar, which has had ALOT of load dev at its 8# .. 500gr at 2375 WILL GET YOUR ATTENTION opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
Jeffe, With all due repect the 458 Win will shoot trough two eles broadside at 2,150 fps with Hornady DGS. Why would I need more velocity and one hell of a lot more recoil? Every one thinks that the 458 Lott was named after Jacque. But actually it was named such, because it has a Lott of recoil. 465H&H | |||
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Moderator |
465, the same question can be posed for nearly anything.. such as "the 458 lott does everything better, and with less recoil, than the 465HH" .. i believe that should make my point. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
The fallacy in your statement is that more velocity is always better. I disagree with that statement. We need to balance added velocity (assuming all else is equal) with recoil and rifle weight. 465H&H | |||
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One of Us |
I dont believe this is true. It not a LOTT is a LITTLE more recoil. I had chance to pick up a box of 458Win on the used/discount table and fire those in my CZ 458Lott. Yes, it kick less, but nowhere near the difference I expected. A trivial difference and that was in a Lott chamber. Going from my 416 to 458 is a lot, or from the 458 to my 505 is a way lot more, but this Lott to WinMag is a Lott about a Little. The Lott buy all reports seems just about optimum(for a 45). Which makes the 458WinMag close enough - but why settle for just barely when the Lott appears to be right in the middle of the sweet spot? The 450Dakota,Rigby,Wby are in the realm where arguments are often hear about more is not better. Yet, the Dakota and now Rigby are growing in popularity. I assume for a reason. So today there is a whole range of 45's to choose, why take the bare min lowest option suitable for a bolt rifle. To go below the 458win you are looking at the 45marlin class ctg. If the Lott is too much, perhaps consider a 416. | |||
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Moderator |
firstly, it is not a fallacy, it is a disagreement on opinion. your position is either opinion or stipulation, in YOUR preference. a fallacy is deceptive or misleading .. stating the lott goes faster is neither secondly your @#$@#$ handle 465 HH, which is what, 480 at nearly 2400, with lower sd? no point in beating that dead horse, but the vel higher /sd lower of an assumed same bullet construction really does negate anything about that line of reasoning thirdly - 7# to 14# seems to be the range of normal hunting weight rifles . 15ftlb of recoil, in an 8# gun, is nothing to get all worried about ... but if you don't want to think about it, then great -- i was just answering your question opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
Jeffe, My dictionaray defines fallacy as: a false idea; mistaken belief; error; mistake in reasoning; as well as misleading or unsound argument. In my opinin the statement that velocity is always better fits all of those definitions. Where did I ever say that the Lott doesn't have a higher velocity than the 458 Win? That would be a stupid statement for anyone. What I said was,a higher velocity isn't always better. You are also mistaken at what my "handle' means i.e. 465H&H. It pertains to the 1907 465 H&H Nitro Express , which is a 480 grain bullet at a nominal 2,150 fps. Not the most recent creation of H&H. Before you jump me and say I am misnaming the cartridge, I have original Holland & Holland cases marked 465 H&H as well as 1920's era H&H catelogs where the cartridge is listed as 465 H&H. 465H&H | |||
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Moderator |
465 thanks for remarking that you are using the old rifle. Hope it brings you joy as for fallacy .. the lott goes faster .. period .. YOU my not want that, however, impenging on your opinion does not make anything about the lott false nothing else to add at this point opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
I bought a FN Browning 458 win. mag after picking up a bit of information on AR, including 465 H&H's posts, etc. These rifles are worth taking a look at, 7.5-8lbs, FN action, and nicely finished they make a really nice handling 458 win. mag. I recently picked up a 375 H&H FN Browning to go along with the 458. In my opinion, 458's either win. mag or Lott work just fine, so for me it is all about the rifle including handling, weight, balance, accuracy, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a Lott as nice as these Brownings 458s for the money....and well worth picking up over a Lott, in my opinion. | |||
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One of Us |
I concur with you fellows. I prefer my Browning Safari over my CZ Lott. You certanily have the firepower with the CZ with 6 cartridges in the mag and chamber however it is a "club" relative to the Browning. The Browning does have the Mauser action and a 3 position safety and is a quality gun. I believe it is the "true bargain" in the big bore arena. You do not have to do anything to it unless you want to glass it in or tinker with the trigger to your taste, Just watch for the salt stocks!
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One of Us |
There has been a lot of cow poop spread around this forum about how the 375Ruger is needed becasue of the availability of a light rifle and the implication is that is due to modern ctg design and new powders. But as jjs and ezzrider and others including myself can testify - Browning built a nice light mauser bolt in 375H&H 40 years ago. No space age alloys or plastic stocks, no tricks at all. Simple easy deal. I am sure Browning could do the same today if they wanted in 375HH,458WM or Lott. I would not want it in any 458, but more power to those who would and could. The 375HH would be nice though. The question was posed as Lott vs WinMag. Not Browning safari vs Ruger RSM or CZ vs M70. Any of these 4 could easily handle either of the two. I am confident any of the 4 companies could build a gun to any reasonable weight and length (light, med or heavy), if the marketing guru (or beam counters) gave them to go ahead. | |||
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One of Us |
All this back and forth about the Lott vs the winmag is really starting to turn my stomach. Why burn all that powder when everyone that has any real world experience knows that the 45-70 will out penetrate either of these at much slower and easier to shoot velocities We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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One of Us |
I see your point, and respect your choice based on what you feel is best for you. I guess what I meant was that in equal rifles, I would always buy a .458 Lott in preference to a .458 Win. Mag. None of the factors you mention is all that important to me, personally. Rather, the increased velocity, 2,400 fps with a 450 grain bullet, and consequent quick killing power, make the additional weight and recoil well worth it as far as I am concerned. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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One of Us |
That is the most reasoned responce so far for selecting the Lott over the Win. 465H&H | |||
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One of Us |
I dont agree with that honestly a 458 cal hole is the same shot at 2150-2400 which the lott without a 26 inch bbl will do if it will do so were talking apples to apples and alot of misinformed opinions about what they think is better due to what is read on forums | |||
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<Mike McGuire> |
Let's assume the 458 Win and 458 Lott are identical on very big game. The 458 Lott will become the better choice for the reloader, especially a reloader who likes to play around BUT it won't give up anything to the 458 Win. The 458 lott offers more powder suitability and in SAAMI chambers a much better throat situation. | ||
One of Us |
Sorry, but based on my direct experience, there is a threshold in a big bore that is crossed at 2,400-2,500 fps. Not misinformed opinion, but direct experience. All else being equal, with a shot through the shoulder on a Cape buffalo, the difference is dramatic in terms of incapacitation - meaning time between the shot and dropping and killing the animal. Velocity does matter in terms of quicker kills. I have seen it and do not doubt it. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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One of Us |
Then by that theory the 460 weathby would be king of the crop and we all know how that story ends | |||
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One of Us |
I bought a CZ-550 in .458WM. Due to the relatively stubby Winchester cartridge, in the huge Brno action, it had poor feeding. Understand that it always did feed the rounds, just not smoothly. I read that reaming the chamber to .458Lott, and lengthening the cartridge, might help the feeding problems, so I had that done. I am happy to say that the rifle feeds, much, much better. It is actually smooth now. It does not hurt that the Lott cartridge is capable of more velocity than the Winchester. I have settled on a load that produces avg. 2250fps MV, with 500gr bullet. So for me, in my situation, the Lott was a "no-brainer". | |||
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One of Us |
So you can lay out the data for us then ...?? | |||
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One of Us |
That story ends with the .460 Weatherby Mag., and its ballistic eqivalents, as the undoubted kings of the .458 caliber crop. Of course, more velocity needs well constructed bullets to achieve royalty. And these days, happily, we have those in spades. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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One of Us |
What was the orginal goal of the lott acheive 2150 more affectively then the winchester at the time correct the orginal reasoning behind a stopper 2150 500 grain bullet correct stay with me now more velocity means what more stress on the bullet and more stress equals what more of a chance for the bullet to deform over expand and even over penetrate | |||
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one of us |
I gota disagree with this, at least sorta disagree. The buff I shoot well with the 458wm die so quickly they don't even have time for the death bellow. The one I didn't shoot so well wouldn't have died any quicker with a Lott. You use solids on elephants. You brain it and it is dead, no matter the cartridge used. Only so much penetration is required to reach the brain, and the 458wm provides much more than merely adequate penetration for that. But the 458 Lott can shoot 550gr solids at about the same velocity that the 458wm can shoot 500 grainers. That has got to be an advantage when the shot isn't perfect. My own elephant experience is limited to the 458wm but low and behold, 465H&H has more and broader experience and has experience with both the 458wm and the 458 Lott in particular, and reports that the 550gr solids do actually produce more knock down, knock out effect than the 500's at roughly the same velocity. But maybe not three pounds worth of advantage, to an elephant hunter. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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One of Us |
No disagreement whatsoever (I think). CNS is CNS, and when it's hit, it's lights out - no argument there. But I'm saying that soft tissue and bones are another story. IME, all else being equal, more velocity increases the incapacitation and quick killing factor. Not sure what it is - bone splinters acting as secondary shrapnel, shock, hydrostatic or whatever. All I know is that it works. Better. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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One of Us |
The Lott addressed an issue that was relevant 30 years ago. Now, as evident by this (and many other similar) threads, the fact that arguments are made regarding different rifles, different chamberings, different bullets, and different loadings leads me to believe that the performance of the same 500 grainer at 2150 or 2300 MV is rather minor point in choosing one over the other. | |||
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One of Us |
expect the lott will get 2150 with a wide range of the longer bullets thats about the run of it but a 500 grain woodleigh is more then enough | |||
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One of Us |
But the 458 Lott can shoot 550gr solids at about the same velocity that the 458wm can shoot 500 grainers. That has got to be an advantage when the shot isn't perfect. My own elephant experience is limited to the 458wm but low and behold, 465H&H has more and broader experience and has experience with both the 458wm and the 458 Lott in particular, and reports that the 550gr solids do actually produce more knock down, knock out effect than the 500's at roughly the same velocity. But maybe not three pounds worth of advantage, to an elephant hunter. JPK[/QUOTE] Does any factory do a 550gr solid?? I am not a Professional Hunter but a Professional Guide so though i have had to do three elephant (all frontal brain shot charging) two buffalo(heart lung) and two hippo hunts(both frontal brain shot charging)All with my.375 Reme. to get my Zim Pro Guides license. I will not be hunting anymore DG. However what i do now is a lot of walking with photographic guests, all in areas full of DG. So any shot i make from now on will BE FRONTAL BRAIN CHARGING most likely be on elephant, possible buff,lion etc. All will be at 10m or less, further than that and national parks will have my hide! And it will be to protect my guests (usually 3-6 people) So with that in mind, that is why i am asking these questions as i now want a larger caliber for piece of mind should the situation arise when i do have to make that shot.I dont reload! And i am like i said deciding between a 458WM or a LOTT so please dont tell me about any other weapons, unless you want to buy them for me!! The WM and LOTT are in my price bracket!! Thank you for the info so far, it is greatly appreciated! | |||
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One of Us |
My point being, in my opinion the extra +/- 70fps is not the end of the world, if it aint broke why fix it? I'd rather have a classic "unmolested" .458 win mag. If I were to buy a rifle for the sake of just having one, I see the merits for the Lott. Horses for courses. | |||
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One of Us |
Hunters been complaining about the 458WM for years - why even ask such a question now the complaints have been addressed with the Lott. The concensus clearly is that Winchester should have designed the 458 as full lenght Lott or similar. For a new gun, buy the Lott, it is a no brainer. If you get a bargin on a used 458WM, thats another question, but for a new gun like CZ - I think if you re-read this thread or better yet ask around Zim, the answer is clear. Even for future resale (you are not rich), the WM is 2nd best, the Lott will sell better. The Lott will handle any ammo WM or Lott. I know you dont want to hear this, but if I had your job I would be thinking about a 416Rigby. But, you already decided, so I will drop it. | |||
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One of Us |
If I were limited with factoryammo only, I would go with the Lott as well. No doubt. You are almost certain to get 2200 fps. Factory ammo in 458WM will most likely be around 2000- 2050 fps maximum.. But if you start reloading, the 458WM will work flawlessly with the right powders and right bullets (Barnes Banded or similar FN solids) | |||
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Moderator |
firstly - this is a 458 discussion, not a 375 ruger one .. why the soapbox on this one? say, did you ever buy your reloading press? as for anyone protesting velocity .. get over it, or buy a 45/70 and use garrett hammerheads .. there's less vel for you, after all, somehow, less vel in a PROPERLY designed bulllet is somehow "bad" yes, there has, generaly by persons with little to no experience on the thigns they are talking about REALLY? i had seen people COMPLAINING about how much the ruger recoiled due to lightness .. and new powders? seriously? man, you are really digging to find something to complain about -- h414, i4895 and w760 aren't new powders, and THOSE powders make book yes, and then abandoned it, due to sales and "bean counters" drying the wood in salts .. 40 years ago, we all drove 10 mpg cars, and smoked as is often, you are unaware of facts . here you go http://ruger.com/products/m77H...eAfrican/models.html even left handed .. find ONE browning safari lefty .. . - exactly as desribed, if you can forgive the due square bridges, 3 position safety, no risk of salt wood, and qd/intregal scope bsases oh yeah, whincester and browning both offer the "space age" (which is about the same age as the browning safari) big bore guns as their HOT SELLERS .. one makes models for the market .. alaska --stainless and plastic due to weather .. oh, wait a second .. RUGER, REMINGTON, BRoWNING and WINCHESTER all offer the same thing, and play those "cute markering games" .. like, oh, selling them with semidecriptive names .. not EVEN close - FN owns browning, little buddy, and they make the model 70 in 375 and 458- even LOTT if you want a custom shoppe yet you think a company would take on the risk of a flop . seriously? ruger has the answer for you, little buddy wow, that's a risky statement -- NOT .. a browning safari would be trivial to convert to lott, and the other 3 already do. AND its chlid's play to turn a ruger m77 into a 375HH .. just takes a little money -- heck, one can even turn a ruger tang safety push feed into a 458 lott ..
Let's see .. whichester took a 5 year hiatus from this market, dakota went broke during that time, and montana's copy couldn't even fill the void with CZ making and marketing the actions .. you might be a TAD off, there, little buddy .. cz model 3 is a montana rifleman m70 clone .. sold like ice in alaska . In other words, the "bean counters" at the ONLY innovative major maker did it, and it sells like ice water in hell .. with all the complaints about it kicking too hard due to lightness opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
Damn! Where to begin? No, I did not get a press yet. Been looking on the discount tables, a lot of used stuff seems to be turning up - recession or aging population? I did get a box 50 Hornady 416 solid 400 gr bullets for $12. My point is building a short light or long heavy or anywhere in between gun can be done for either 375 or 458 dejour. So you agree - not a "risky" stmt? Then owning either 375HH or 458Lott in any reasonable (length & wt)configuration should not be a problem either. I did not know if the old Browning was easy to convert to a Lott. Just one more drop in the Lott bucket of advantages. Bottom line, you dont need a new short 375 or and old short 458 to get any reasonable weight and length (ie handling) gun. | |||
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