eric

Although I am a Weatherby person I actually think the HS Precision is the best rifle out there.

Wby has some pluses for me from an overall package point of view, one of those being the high end wood rifles and I like the looks of them and also the rifle and calibre are the same. Not that is important except in your own mind.

I am also a sucker for the service that comes in the good restaurant and the Wby custom shop is like that whereas HS Precision are quite different.

If you want see in line feed in action load a 400 grain Hornady backwards in a 416 Wby and in 416 Rigby in a CZ. With the bolt open and cartridges in the magazine, belt the bolt closed with a rubber mallet.

You will never have seen a semi auto or auto that is CRF because they would not work. The bolt would close to quick for the case rim to get under the extractor.

Another top 375 that might fit your budget (I don't know the prices in the US) is the Sauer. It is another in line feeder. Sauer offer a barrel caning setup and where they are different most rifles likes M70, Rem 700, Wby,Z etc is that the bolt locks into the barrel. In other words the locking lug recesses are in the barrel.

If you want some opinions on the Sauer I would suggest posting on this site's European forum.

Many people regard the Sauer as the most accurate out of the box rifle and just about the best rifle that can be bought, when accuracy and function are the measuring stick.

Mike

Thumpper470

I have always though the 300 Wby should have the recoil lug on the barrel reinforce like the 378 and up. Actually, I think they might now have it on the 340.

Mike

eric

Here is the Sauer Outback

http://www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=72&lang=en

You will a Wby resemblance. As you to the high end models they are also Wby like in that you need sun glasses on to look at them.

Mike

.

Alf,

Sometime ago at the range a couple of blokes had the 202s, 300 Winchesters as I remember and they were extremely accurate. The same fellows also had Blasers and I think they were in one of the European calibres like 7 X 64. They also shot very well.

In one of our gun magazines they just tested the Merkel version of the Blaser.

Mike

Mike,

If the Sauer did not have that queer monte carlo thing on the stock, I would be interested in one for deer hunting (except that I already have too many rifles).

500

How about the Alaska

http://www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=71&lang=en

mike378, what would one of those sauer 202alaskas go for in us dollars

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Another top 375 that might fit your budget (I don't know the prices in the US) is the Sauer. It is another in line feeder. Sauer offer a barrel caning setup and where they are different most rifles likes M70, Rem 700, Wby,Z etc is that the bolt locks into the barrel. In other words the locking lug recesses are in the barrel.

Mike

I'm not sure if I follow you: Does the Sauer lock the bolt in the barrel like a Remington 710 does? I've heard nothing good about the 710s. I've read that the Remington 710 barrel is actually press fit into the receiver, meaning that if you need your barrel swapped, you have problems. I don't mean to belittle Sauer if we're not comparing apples to apples though. I just don't know much about them, to be honest. I like Euro rifles though, especially Tikkas.

How do they fit the barrel into the receiver? Is the action considered strong?

Mike,

I don't like the stock shape. And I would not want one where the mag box sticks down too far because I like to carry a rifle by putting my hand under the mag box. Overall I would probably feel uncomfortable with a Sauer because it is not a Mauser. But they are interesting, and I could probably convince myself to use one for prarie dog hunting.

Teat, by locking in the barrel you eliminate one tolerance. The Sauers are bank-vault tight. The system in designed to interchange barrels and is not permnant like the Rem 710.

OTOH, the Sauer is pushing $1500 for the cheapest one so you'd expect it to beat a 710 accordingly. The takedown goes for close to 9 grand.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Teat, by locking in the barrel you eliminate one tolerance. The Sauers are bank-vault tight. The system in designed to interchange barrels and is not permnant like the Rem 710.

OTOH, the Sauer is pushing $1500 for the cheapest one so you'd expect it to beat a 710 accordingly. The takedown goes for close to 9 grand.

I was just looking at the prices, and for that much, I'd rather have a H-S, I think.

I sure wish that Winchester made an alaskan version of their safari express, maybe an "Alaskan Express" would be nice. Not the Stainless classic either. Something a little more refined.

As a long time professional guide who has seen an awful lot of rifles in use over the years you can add me to the non-Weatheby side of this debate. "Beauty is as beauty does" and it truly may be in the eye of the beholder but a faithless beauty in dangerous game hunting can get you killed.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
As a long time professional guide who has seen an awful lot of rifles in use over the years you can add me to the non-Weatheby side of this debate. "Beauty is as beauty does" and it truly may be in the eye of the beholder but a faithless beauty in dangerous game hunting can get you killed.

What do you use, if you don't mind me asking? Your area is the place I'm most interested in.

I am a die hard Mauser fan but don't feel at all unarmed with CZ/ Brno's, M-70's or Ruger 77's.

eric

Saeed's main PH Roy Vincent uses a Mark V 416 for his back up rifle.

Mike

500,

I quite like the look of the Sauers and for obvious reasons but I have never been able to come to grips with the idea of the gunsmith changing a barrel of my choice etc and etc and ditto for Blaser, Mauser 66.

Mike

I'd venture to say that hunting in the Alaska bush is harder on a rifle than in Africa.

eric,

If you leave looks out of the equation and various other subjective things I reckon the HS Precision win and wins easily and I will explain why.

Firstly it carries the pluses of in line feed but beats the Wby on a couple of counts in this area. Firstly the Wby only has in line feed with the 378 based calibres.

Secondly the HS Precision just feeds nice and easy, although with rapid repeat fire that won't be noticeable. The Wby needs a strong magazine spring because the bolt nose protrudes beyond the locking lugs but the problem is that when the bolt is open a row of lugs is on the bottom and the diameter acrosss the lugs is the same as the bolt but the bolt nose is smaller. So when the Weatherby bolt is pulled back the case is held down well below the bolt nose. When the bolt is full back the case must pop up so as the bolt nose can push it forward.

Id you have very fast hands and the bias at the rear of the spring is a bit weak you can be quick enough to start pushing the Wby bolt forward before the case head has fully risen. This means the lugs try and push the case forward. In many ways a Wby turns all cartridges into a rebated rim design.

By the way, I have only seen and been able to jam the Wby in the above manner with the rifle sitting on a rest and only with weak spring bias at the rear.

In addition the bolt lugs drag across the belt.

In the stagger feed Weatherbys the cartridge is very strongly controlled by heavy feed lips on the magazine. A Wby does not use the rails of the action for feeding. Such an arrangement makes for reliable feeding (similar to SMLE 303)but it is rougher to feel unless you are feeding very quickly. It also tears the cases up quite a bit. The HS Precision is in line feed for all calibres so does not need the Wby stagger feed systen for the smaller calibres.

With stagger feed if you push a Wby bolt say 1/3 or 1/2 forward as compared to a Model 70 or Mauser and then try and move the cartride with your fingers to one side you will find the Wby will resist a lot more. In reality the Wby is true CRF and so is the HS Precision with its in line feed.

The HS Precision has more primary extraction than the Wby because of its two lug action.

The HS Precision is also much cheaper for the same level of rifle. To equal the HS Precision you need to take the Kreiger cut rifle barrel option and action work.

HOWEVER, I will bet on either an HS Precision or Wby being a more reliale feeder than ANY staggered feed CRF and that also includes the smaller calibre staggered feed Wbys. HOWEVER, when worked slowly while cycling cartridges the Wby will feel rough compared to the other rifles. The HS Precision will not. Both it and the Sauer feed so smoothly you will think there are no cartridges in the magazine.

If you have a Granite or Hartman and Weiss action and let D'Arcy Echols, Ryan Breeding, H&H or Purdey work on it, a cartridge with a burr on the rim will stop it because the case can't slide up between the extractror and bolt face.

The CRF is also crippled by ammo with incorrect case rim or extractor groove depth.

I can tell that you shoot like a lot of us in Australia chasing roos and on a good property shooting 100 by day and 100 by night the CRFs will have the trouble. Of course some of the ammo being used is crap. Some of it will have mud that has gone hard in the extractor groove.

A pro roo shooter would not bother with CRF rifles. Some CRFs are also mucked by continual single feeding since if there is a lot of shooting the magazine runs dry real quick and CRFs are not well suited for just dropping a cartridge on the floor plate and closing the bolt.

Bottom line is that if we take the two situations where high volume shooting is done and conditions are rough such as Australia and the military, the push feed rules and the in line feed push feed double rules.

Africa and Alaska etc are different as you will only fire a few shots and you won't have ammo rolling about all over the place in the back of a truck while you chase after a mob of roos.

Having said all of that I think the stagger feed CRF is the nicer gun to use. For example, I like them because you can push the bolt forward without turning it down and then just pull it back to extract the cartridge. The staggered feed CRFs are also so much nicer to watch when they are cycled.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
If you have a Granite or Hartman and Weiss action and let D'Arcy Echols, Ryan Breeding, H&H or Purdey work on it, a cartridge with a burr on the rim will stop it because the case can't slide up between the extractror and bolt face.

Mike, have you ever had that happen? I have some used .375 HH brass that looks like someone hit the rims with a grinder. They are all bunged up with rough burrs. But feed just fine in a M70 classic.

They will be OK if there is sufficient clearance. An M70 would probably be better in this area than a H&W.

I seen CRFs stopped because bedding compound is in the groove. We can be rough over here A push feed will still extract because the bolt rotating the extractor dislodges the compound because it is not usually stuck on that hard.

PC will confirm this as he used this gunsmith to make his rifles. This bloke would be one of our top metal blokes, maybe the best. A total traditionalist. In fact I think he only has reamers for 7 X 57, 300 and 375 H&H&, 404, 500 J 505 Gibbs etc. He told PC that the CRF is the trouble gun.

Of course at the end of the day it is what you prefer. I prefer Wby to HS Precision but I can make a stonger story for HS Precision than Wby. But it is the overall package.

I have some custom Wbys on order. I did not pick Wby because of in line feed reliability. At the end of the day they all work if they are good examples. They all have falts but if we like them we get around or make allowances for those faults. For example I would not use old tired brass with hotter loads to go shooting with a Wby. But it would not worry me in a two lug action and especially with a very tapered case.

But a simple analysis or commomsense will soon tell someome that an in line feed push feed has less to accomplish to get the cartridge into the magazine and especially with calibres like 458 Win/Lott with big flat noses.

I see the gun/calibre as a total package. For example if I was having an expensive 375 I would want stagger feed CRF and in fact would not buy an HS Precision or Wby in one. The only exception would be a Wby synthetic in 375 for rough shooting which for us can mean "rifle over board". I would pick the Wby in that case because I find it awkward moving between two lug action and Wbys.

But if we again return to the Teat Hounds original post.....would a Wby 375 DGR make a good DG gun. The answer is yes. It far more likely feed without failure than a Model 70. The chances of the barrel, receiver and scope mount holes being aligned is much better. He oes not need to worry about split stocks. His rear sight won't slide under recoil because they are on a lengthwise screw. The rifle as a standar Wby DGR will cost him about $2500-$2600US. For equal reliabity he would need HS Precision or Sauer.

But I would not buy the rifle because he said 375 and for that sort of money which is starting to get up there I would want a 375 in staggered feed CRF. On the other side of the coin if Echols made a 30/378 or 378 on a Granite or H&W you could not give it to me. Equally Wby could not give me a bordello special chambered in 300 H&H etc.

But if my life depended on it and the calibre was to be 458 Win/Lott then I would take the HS Precision because those calibres with blunt bullets ate borderline jam in a stagger feed when loaded with very blunt bullets. But many on this site would say NO, get a CZ or whatever because the HS Precision is push feed.

Mike

Mike,

Why do so few professional hunters use the WBY DGR?

ofm...
wrong thread!!!
jeffe

500,

Why do so few PHs use Ryan Breeding rifles Why do so few PHs use Custom Shop Winchesters.

Cost is one obvious factor which in the case of the Wby is further increased by ammo costs.

I assume that in Africa they also pay more for rifles than you do in America. In Australia a M70 works out at $1000US plus.

On offence meant 500, but you would make a terrible lawyer by implying the WBY DGR is of doubt due to lack of use by PHs and you have picked an expensive rifle so you have dumped Echols, Miller and so on in the same pile.

My best shooting mate makes his 5th trip to Africa next year and he said from what he saw they all used shit although one bloke had a Sako with plastic stock.

Do American taxi driver/owners use Mercedes.

Are you saying that because the average varmint shooter does not use Nesika and Nighforce that the gear is shit.

Why do so few PH use 470 Capsticks?

If was I a PH I would take a HS Precision in 458 Lott. Easy ammo supply (including 458)and the reliability of in line feed. No stock splitting. But it would be well above the budget of most PHs.

Your premise is a poor criticism of Wby because you have taken out about every rifle available that costs more than a CZ or M70 because the same question can be asked.

The standard Wby DGR is going to cost in 375 about 4 times the CZ.

Why do very few Wby buyers take the Kreiger cut rifle barrel option. Is it because the barrels are shit.

The bottom line is that the standard Wby DGR is at the bottom end of the Wby high dollar department and it is a rifle for the guns/ammo enthusiast who wants a gun for more than just a tool.

Unless you people on the Africam forum are lying the lack of use of Wby DGR by PHs would seem to be praise of the rifle because you say the 458 Win is the popular stopping round and we know what you all have to say about the 458 Win.

Do you really think if Wbys were so bad that so many people own several of them. Why is there is a 2 year waiting list on the their higher end custom stuff. If they were so bad how could they sell when their ammo and brass is at such high prices.

I have listed for you several faults of the Wby but feeding is not one of them and especially with the in line feeders based on the 378 case.

Mike

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:


-Bob F.

Yikes!

Can't we shoot a cat instead?

Well, I guess the moral of the story here is:

I'm just going to have to buy 2 rifles . One H-S Pro-hunter, and one Winnie 70, to go please! Both in 375 H&H. It is the only way I'll know for sure which one I prefer.

Think Mrs Teat will go for it? (Don't answer )

Mike,

You're tempting me to be on the look out for a used MkV in 460 W I get the feeling I need one just so I can offend some folks

Mike,

You are chasing your tail on this one. PHs can afford a gun in the US$1K-$3K range. Yet they do not choose Wby (except in fairly rare instances). If you want to know why, just ask them. They will tell you. Most of them will say it is because they consider the Wby a push feed piece of cheese.

Show them Breeding or Echols CRF rifle and ask if they would use it (if they could afford it). Almost all of them will say YES! And the ones who say NO will tell you that they already own a double.

As for ammo, most ammo is hard to get in Africa. But Wby ammo can be gotten just like 416 Rigby or 458 Lott. Of course when the PH receives his Wby ammo and it seizes the action shut, that can impair his confidence.

quote:

I’ll start with my least favourite rifle:- the Weatherby. We don’t often see them out here, thank goodness. The one we had this year exhibited the usual Weatherby failing of going off when the safety catch was disengaged. Like all I’ve seen with this problem, they work fine on the range. It is only after they have been bounced, bumped or jolted whilst loaded and on safe that they do this. I’m sure the problem is correctable and not all do it, however, this one would also not extract at all after the eighth round. It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions. The .460 is notorious and this .416 proved no different.

As for feeding, you insist that they feed perfectly, but a gunsmith I know who worked there says he spent a lot of time fixing ones that wouldn't feed. Who am I to believe?

500.

I think you will find the Wby DGR will be well over $3000US in Africa.

I have read your reprint of the article several times. The two Wbys I have chronograpphed most is 300 and 378 and it is 100 f/s down on what you can load to. I think RIP recently chronographed some 300 grain 378 and that was about 2900 or a bit less.

The fellow mentions using a 2 pound hammer to open the bolt. That is a big overload of pressure or a big overload of bullshit. If you need a 2 pound hammer to open the bolt you will be dealinh with way over expanded pocket etc and to the extent it would be mentioned. And why did he continue firing a rifle that is giving extraction problems.

"Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions." That is pure bullshit and his two pound hammer story without other comment suggests lots of bullshit. The fact that he kept firing the rifle with extraction problems suggests he is either a bullshit merchant or a fuckwit. Either outcome greatly reduces the credibility of his story.

By the way, in case you did not know, it gets quite hot in Australia plus we shoot in summer.

As to your gunsmith commonsense will tell you that all rifles will have specimens with problems and if it was only .01% of Wbys he would see a lot of rifles.

The gunsmith at Winchester would have a lot of rifles that don't feed.

But go to the gunsmiting forum on this site and also 24 hour and I think you will be lucky to find one thread on Wby problems that is feeding related. The bulk of those threads are on CRF actions and fucked up rifles from gunsmiths.

In my experience which covers both a lot of rifles and a lot of different brand rifles the Wby is the most reliable feeder BUT as I have already said, not the smoothest when cartridges are cycled slowly. They also tear up brass more than other rifles.

By the way if the ammo is so overloaded why are people like Echols and Miller prepared to make their rifles in 300 Wby. I think Heym chambers the 460 which according to the article is notoriously bad.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
As a long time professional guide who has seen an awful lot of rifles in use over the years you can add me to the non-Weatheby side of this debate. "Beauty is as beauty does" and it truly may be in the eye of the beholder but a faithless beauty in dangerous game hunting can get you killed.

Phil: It sounds like you are trying to goad some of us Weatherby guys on here.

I am an empiricist...I will look at and use as many rifles as I can and then use what works the best, until I am convienced otherwise.

There is no doubt that I respect what you have to say, and I like your article on .458s in Rifle (it makes me want to buy a .458 of some type).

But I bet rifle malfunctions are related to close quarter attacks and lack of experience, and not to action type.

I bet more CRF rifles have jammed or otherwise malfunctioned in Africa in bad situations in the past 30 years than Weatherbys have.

I prefer rifles that work, no matter who makes them. And I plain disagree that I should buy a $1500 CFR rifle and then spent 6K on top of that to make it work right.

I do like your article though and I have it right here in front of me. It makes me want to buy a .458.

I hope you do not take my comments as too argumentative..I just think your idea that Weatherby's are dangerous to use is a bit over stated .

Paul,

To achieve your goal you shoud get a 378, they are more offensive and upsetting than the 460

Mike

quote:

And I plain disagree that I should buy a $1500 CFR rifle and then spent 6K on top of that to make it work right.

Only a fool would think he has to spend that kind of money to get a bare bones Mauser or M70 to work. For the Mauser, if you like .458 just buy a used Whitworth for $600. Smooth up the rails and ramp ($50) and you are good to go. Or buy a new M70 Classic SS .375 for $800 and spend about $150 polishing it up and rounding the sharp corners. Plus new sights for another $250.

____________

Mike,

I think I just read 2 posts in a row which said, "If someone says that a Wby failed in the field, then I don't believe him."

Paul: After all the years that I have used Weatherbys I never dreamed that I would have so many people against me! . It is an tough path to follow...someone has to do it though. ..and I agree with Mike, just mentioning the .378, even thought it is a profoundly deadly cartridge, really does set some folks off!

500: You could have done without referring to me as fool.

Robert,

With the money I have recently spent on them and a lot more with new orders I sometimes worry that people might get to like them.

2 I have on order are a pair of 378s that are upgraded Crown Customs. The 378 and the inlays has to be the most offensive calibre/rifle combo out there although the done up DGRs with Titanium nitride finish and Snow Camo stocks are certainly right up there.

The CRF boys are like some of the wine people. You demonstrate your expertise by being able to get one to work and find the gunsmith.....it is a whole separate hobby itself.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
500: That sounds like reasonable and affordable advice (you could have done with out referring to me as fool though).

You knew when you posted that it doesn't cost $6K to tune up a mass produced M70 or M98. But a fool reading it might not!

Robert,

I think quite a bit of the intense dislike for Wbys can be traced back to the fact that to the non shooter or casual shooter they steal show, especially the tarted up ones.

Try showing some non shooters a picture of a Crown Custom and one of the real well done high dollar conservative rifles and they will go for the Crown Custom everytime.

A fellow who goes to our range has one of the older Crown Customs in 300 Wby with the birdseye mapale, fish scale checkering and blue inlays. He steals the whole show when he turns up with it.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:

The CRF boys are like some of the wine people. You demonstrate your expertise by being able to get one to work and find the gunsmith.....it is a whole separate hobby itself.

I agree with that totally . I like my guns to work as soon as I put bullets in them.

Phil Shoemaker is someone I greatly respect because of what he does, which is a tough business...and I it is a previlage for me to talk directly to him about what I think, even when we disagree.

All of these guns are expensive and they are all exceptional. I will probably buy a .460 in one of DGR models, although I would love to have the safaris model with wood stock (I would beat the crap out of that rifle up here). I am not getting any younger so I might as well get that rifle anyway and see how it goes.

It is a lot of fun, no matter how you cut it.