PS,

500,

Your bear guide is matched on the other side by Saeed's PH and friend Roy Vincent using a Mark V 416 Wby as his back up gun.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:

The AH article has a bullshit sound because as I said before the bloke keeps firfing after having extraction problems by the 3rd shot and still goes onto fire another 5. Then he needs a 2 pound hammer to open the bolt. That degree of overload would bring on other comment but has the sound of a throw away line.

If you read the whole article, that occurred during a professional hunter's proficiency examination. If the owner of the rifle quit firing, he would fail the test and have to wait another year to take it. And since the test is intended to simulate a real life scenario where you keep firing until the animal is down, the candidate does not have a choice about whether he keeps firing or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:

Do you agree that it will be easier to get reliable feeding from a push feed centre line feed than a stagger feed CRF.

Let's not mix apples and oranges. In order to avoid that, we will discuss magazine box style and extractor type separately.

Center line feed is of course easier to get to work. Center line feed has been used with push push feed and control feed systems. And it works with both.

As for extraction, crf is more reliable.

quote:

Do you agree that it is easier to get calibres like 458 Win/Lott to feed broad flat points from an in line feed than a stagger feed.

Yes, but it is merely a matter of geometry. Once a guy figures it out for a staggered magazine box, he can build one of them or 10,000, and the 10,000th is no more difficult than the 2nd. This is the age of mass production, after all.

quote:

Do you agree that case rim and extractor groove dimensions are more important for a CRF to be reliable.

Mike

No. In a crf, for the rifle to not extract the rim or groove would have to be way off. I have never seen it happen, and I have used some pretty buggered up cases, including in the .375 recently. In a PF action, the extractor and bolt face also have tolerances, and a heavily buggered case could in theory cause a failure.

500,

When I talk of case rim and extractor groove dimensions I mean in reference to chambering.

With in line feed it comes as standard of plenty of oush feeds but not CRF, so lets keep it in the context of what someone is likely to be able to but.

When all else is equal the in line will always win with the 458 type calibres and even 416 Rem with broad flat noses. The in line virtually points the round at the chamber and the round is much more strongly supported. The fact that someone might get a staggered feed to work is one thing but it will always be closer to jamming with such calibres and bullets.

The point I have been trying to make is that an in line feed push feed whether it be Wby, Sauer or whoever can be much further of song than a staggered CRF and still work.

You might remember earlier on in this I said take 100 Wby Safaris, 100 Dakotas, 100 Empires all chambered for 450 Dakota and use then as they come from te box and I will back the Wby everytime. I did stipulate 450 Dakota because the brass is likely to be more variable than 460 brass. If the extractor groove was too shallow the CRFs would be in trouble as they would be with a rim a bit big because of resistance caused to case being able to slip under the extractor. With very blunt bullets they can't afford to be much off line without hitting the edge of the chamber.

On the other hand those case dimensions are irrelevant to the Wby plus its in line feed virtually has the round pointed straight at the chamber.

Even with stagger feed the Wby has the edge by using the maazine for all the control. Like an SMLE.

To be sure the Wby systems are not as "nice" as the others but that is a separate issue.

In a nutshell, a rail controlled staggered feed CRF has to be "more right" to function reliably. Afterall, one of the reasons that people like D'Arcy Echols can get big money for a fibre glass gun is because they can get reliability from such a system. These forums continually highlight the inherent feeding problems of the staggered feed CRF.

Mike

Mike,

I think that what you have identified is a quality control problem with many mass produced rifles. And I agree there is a problem. That is why a factory CZ550 or Model 70 needs to go to a competent gunsmith before going on an expensive hunting trip. The field failures of Wby Mark Vs show that they too have quality control problems and fail when least expected (safety problems, stuck cases, feed lip problems). They may fail in a different way than a CRF, but it's still a failure.

With a bit of touch up from a competent gunsmith, a CRF will work perfectly. But a Wby will retain its design defects even after being worked over.

As for a shallow extractor cut on a piece of brass, there may be some brass out there like that but I have neither seen any nor heard of any. Even Bruce Bertram hasn't done that to use yet.

500,

Many of the M70 stainless CRF that first came to Australia would leave the case sitting on the follower. Winchester Ausralia must have been aware of the problem because they had extractors in stock. That type of thing is not a problem for a PF because a CRF with an extractor hook too long won't feed so better to have errors for CRF on an extractor hook that is too short. A very recent thread on this site was a 416 Rigby/Dakota.

It does not matter what Echols, Breeding etc do they can never equal the reliability of straight line feed. If all else is equal commonsense will tell anyone it must always be more difficult to have a case rim slide between bolt face and extractor and then have the cartridge approach the chamber from a steep angle.

I agree with you that quality control is a problem. However, virtually all feeding problem threads involve CRFs and virtually never Wbys or other push feeds. This simply highlights the fact that CRF design is flawed because it needs much higher quality control to work.

Have you noticed that it is expensive factory rifles that all have push feed....Sako, Wby, Steyr, Sauer, Blaser. As expnesive rifles they don't want feeding problems because unlike accuracy feeding problems are more evident and less subjective.

If someone buys a Mark V in 416 Wby the chances of that rifle having feeding problems are far less than a stagger feed CRF. As you know testing the gun in the lounge room may not show problems that crop up in the field....could even be due to the projectiles chosen for the hunt or because bullet noses might flatten due to recoil.

If the Wby (or HS Precision) do have a feed problem then a new magazine fixes the problem. There is a thread on 24Hour at the moment with a CRF 300 Win that won't feed. A couple of responders are gunsmiths and have said that CRF is complex and not an always an easy fix.

Look at the various military sniper rifles whether 308, 338 Lapua or 50 BMG, a CRF is not to be found among them.

In fact I think you will find that in line feed Push Feed is what will be there.

Even in line feed CRG still has the problem o having to get the case rim to slide between bolt race and extractor. An extractor hook too long and you have feeding problems and one to short you leave extracted cases sitting on the follower, unless the bolt is pulled back quickly.

It is really simple. If you have two products and both will work but one product needs a much higher level of quality control to work, then which one do you pick.

We as enthusiastic guns/ammo people have other selection criteria that does not apply to the military. In my own case I have already said that for an expensive 300 H&H or 375 H&H etc I would want stagger feed CRF. With 404 I would even need it to be Mauser and with the thumb cut. You could not give me a custom Wby in such calibres.

I believe the HS Precision is superior to the Wby and only just recently recommended to someone out here to get the HS Precision over the Wby. He was puzzle because he knows what I have wityh Wby and on order. But for me Wby provides a much better overall package and that covers rifle selection, calibe and rifle both Wby, the company itself and the import agent and other things.

I suspect in your own case that many things associated with Mausers will have an appeal to you as is demonstrated by your posting picture.

But such things do not apply at military levels and the CRF is not to be found anywhere.

Lastly, between them, these forums have a lot of Wby threads. Find me one that relates to the feeding extraction cycle. You will get overpriced, too shiny, stock shape, recoil, barrel life, ammo/brass cost, accuracy problems, too much velocity, freebore etc. But threads concerning the cycling of the cartridges will be vary rare. Those threads belong to the CRFs.

Now do you think this is because of Wby having superior quality control or it just might be a case that their feeding system does not need to same quality control to work because the design is simply fundamentally superior.

Mike

I have just returned from the range and was going to post my 200 yd. targets for all to see, but its only one hole ( Wby. style)as usual so i guess i wont. There were two members ringing out their .458 Lotts and after twenty rounds or so in this heat they both froze up (just the kind of thing you dont what to happen) What gun you say oh they where CZ Americans the ones with all the must have D.G. things on them. I didnt have the heart to ask them if they had saftey problems, they were quite pissed. Charlie

The shiny stocks are fine for some. Which is great about them is the finish itself. It is a hard as nails two-part epoxy. They used to use Fullerplast, but that may have been discontinued. If you do not put it on a rotator, it usually forms a drip which must be FILED off. It provides the best protection of any finish, but it light years away from "classic". I imagine some steel wool would dull it for hunting. It will always be a thick, one coat finish.

Now I have an improvement I use on my big bore Weatherby stocks. First, I ALWAYS use Screwbean Mesquite, although it is very hard to find. I next swell the butt like the Lawson rifles. This gives more area on the pad and less felt recoil. I also use a trap pad which is easier to fit to the shoulder, time after time. W'by's have been my main hunting gun for 43 years, and I like the stock. Naturally, I add the wrist strengthening pin (5/16" x about 4"). The W'by wrist design is quite weak. I also strengthen the recoil lug area.

The W'by engraving is the worst of any gun I have EVER seen. Their main engraver for years stated : "I don't want to be the world's BEST engraver, just the RICHEST." He was certainly NOT the world's best engraver. Quite possibly he was the WORST.

In 43 years, I have had zero problems with ANY of my W'by's and NO customizing except Canjar triggers on some. I'll repeat, if 3 shots are not acceptable, why are double rifles so well liked.

quote:

Originally posted by Thumpper470:
if 3 shots are not acceptable, why are double rifles so well liked.

SPEED!

The alternative to speed is magazine capacity. Wby lacks both.

Mike,

If I asked you to please pass the



would you hand me a

Well Mike , I don't buy your arguements that a CRF has to have such perfect brass while a push feed doesn't . I don't buy that it is so tough to get staggered feed work properly . If that is the case , then are the .300 Weatherbys jam-o-matics ? I suspect most of the feeding reliabilty you attribute to the big Weatherbys is actually gained by being of bottleneck design . Many rimfires have straight line feed and feeding problems are quite common with them .


If the CR staggerfeed requires such perfect gunsmithing and ammo , why would the militaries of dozens of countries adopt them ? You think they had time to perfectly tune every weapon or would be using guns that screwed up with less than perfect ammo ? Why would the game departments of African countries issue them for control work ?

The track record just does not jive with your theories .

And the Weatherby Mrk V has a few quirks of it's own to deal with . You yourself have many times mentioned the poor cam forward of the Weath. design and this also mean less extraction power. Then the Weath. extractor claw is none too large either.

You have to chamber and extract the first shot before you worry about feeding .

Despite your claims , I also think tipping the gun upside down to fill the magazine is going to be dammed unhandy . And if you are a Weath. user with the smaller calibers , you are still going to be using a top loading staggered feed. This means you will be using a different loading regimen for your dangerous game weapon , not a good program at all and likely to confuse you when the chips are down .

Then we get to the pro hunters........the aforementioned bear guide in this thread has been using a .458 Mark X for over 20 years as his main backup . Do you really believe he would still be using it if it did not work as intended ? As you know , the Mark X is about the cheapest and roughest CRF rifle made in modern times . And according to you , a CR staggered feed .458 is not likely to work at all ......

Then there are the African pros like Selby , who literally shot the barrel out on a big caliber Mauser . A nice trick if the gun is constantly jamming . Or Aagard ,a Mauser man to the core . Do you really believe these guys would be using unreliable weapons ?

Again , the track record of the CRF with staggered magazine just does not jive with your claims of poor reliablity .

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mike,

If I asked you to please pass the

would you hand me a

500, who did the work on that stock? Nice! For some reason, that stock reminds me of an old shooting club I used to frequent when I was station in Bamberg, West Germany.

If the CR staggered feed requires such perfect gunsmithing and ammo, why would the militaries of dozens of countries adopt them ?

I do not which countries you are talking about, and I am not certain about the stright-line Weatherby style feeding, but the United States uses Remington bolt action rifles, or other PFs for military purposes. The CRF action was abandoned sometime right after WWII. The only countries that use CRF rifles as combat weapons are countries that cannot afford Remingtons or Weatherbys.

As to the rest of your comments, CRF are cheap to make and they usually work good enough. That is why game departments use them.

Most rifles work OK.

These threads are usually about taking the extremes.

It is the CRF rifles that own the threads on feeding problems.

As I mentioned earlier, threads on Wby problems will get overpriced, too shiny, stock shape, recoil, barrel life, ammo/brass cost, accuracy problems, too much velocity, freebore etc. But threads concerning the cycling of the cartridges will be vary rare. Those threads belong to the CRFs.

Mike

sdgunslinger,

The poor cam forward of a Wby is only a problem for a new Wby owner and normally at the range.

If you get a M70 PS put a new case in, then slowly push the bolt forward till it stops, the bolt is ready to be turned down. A Wby will not be because the first resistance is the ejector pin and at that point the bolt is not ready to turn down. In other words the ejector pin has to be slightly compressed before the lugs in a position for the bolt to be closed. Normal use does not see this problem arise as the momentun of the bolt even with fairly slow bolt closure compressed the ejector pin enough. The power of the cam forward is fine.

The main issue, which is the reverse, is the poor primary extraction, that is, the distance the bolt moves back during bolt lift. That will show up as a problem with hotter loads in old tired brass. Lifting the bolt has not not pull the case back far enough so a tap on the bolt handle is needed to break the case free.

I suspect that apart from old tired brass, the fact that it has been loaded a lot the extractor will have worn away some of case rim due to lots of loads and hence the bolt has to move back further before the extractor exerts force on the rim, further reducing the primary extraction.

Mike

rwj

Sure the modern militaries have all gone to auotmatic guns of various kinds , after all the military is all about firepower these days and the side which throws the most lead is likely to win .

That does not change the fact that dozens of nations used the Mauser for their mainline battle weapons . Of course , the USA had both the Springfield and the P-17 .

Do you really beleive these weapons would have been adopted by that many countries if they were commonly found to be lacking in function ? Or if they required special tuning for each weapon and perfect ammo ? After all , they could have used push feeds if they had found them better , the push feed concept was hardly unknown at the time . Even the Brit empire , which had great success with the push feed SMLE , was going to adopt a CRF for their main battle wepon , but the outbreak of WW1 made continued use of the Enfield and the .303 cartridge neccessary for them . The use of the Remington as a sniper weapon is irrelevant to this discusssion and I garuntee you no military would have ever adopted the M-700 as a main battle weapon .

The comment that CRF is cheap to make is laughable , high cost of manufacture is the reason the original pre=64 M-70
was phased out . Most push feed actions in use today were first and foremost engineered for low cost of manufacture . Although the Mark V is likely a prime exception to this .

sdgunslinger,

It is the expensive factory rifles that are push feed. Wby, Sauer, Steyr, Blaser, HA Precision.

As to auto and semi auto CRF would not work because the bolt would close to quick for the case rim to make that angled journey between the bolt face and extractor.

Why are sniper rifles push feed.

Why does Lazerroni use push feed McMillans and with the eception of Echold Legend and various bench type guns the Lazzeronis are about the most expensive plastic guns on the market. Some of Bordern's spoeting style rifle come close and I think Jarret with his own action might be at Lazzeroni prices. Jarrets action is push feed. Wby DGR with Kreiger barrel option and Snow or Desert Camo stock is about $4700US

As to military CRF use and staggered feed there are two pluses. Firstly the cartridge size is smaller and keeping in size for the size of cartridge these actions were first designed for and they are bottle neck and spitzer bullets.

You will note that a 375 H&H has about the same should diameter as a 7 X 57 or 30/06. Fatter calibres steepen the angle that the cartridge must be at to leave the magazine.

I can probably list more faults with the Mark V action that most people on this forum but cycling of the cartridges is not one of them and the various Wby threads on different forums bear this out.

The simple fact is that using the magazine box to completely control the feeding, which Wby also does in its staggered feed small calibres and as the SMLE also does make for more reliable feeding. In line feed takes it one stage further.

The down side to the magazine box control is that feeding is not as smooth when the cartridges are cycled slowly and usually the brass is torn up a fair bit if you keep running the same cartridges through the magazine.

Mike

Mike

I think that Weatherby , first and foremost , wanted an action that was DIFFERENT from anything else available at the time . I also think he wanted a very strong action for his hot loads and while it is debatable whether it is stronger than a 2 lug bolt design it at least gives the illusion of very great strength with its multiple locking lugs .

I think that is the case with most of the high grade push feeds , they are made to sell to a niche market and being different with some quirky engineering is seen as a possible selling point by the designers .

I highly doubt that any of the high priced push feeds will function one bit better than a simple M-700 or M-70 push feed , but the embellishments at least give the buyers the idea they are getting something for the extra money .

By the way the modern M-70 CRF does also use the magazine box to control feeding .

sdgunslinger,

Wby also needs the multi lug design to retain Rem 700 receiver lenghth while being able to get a long magazine. Bridge mounts were commonly promoted in days of old.

When a Wby bolt is closed the two lower sets of lugs are in the 4 and 8 O'Clock positions and and as such this allows Wby to machine the reciever so as to take the long magazine.

There is no doubt that for a practiced Wby user you can cycle the cartridges quicker than a two lug action and it seems even more noticeable with big cartridges. I think the very heavy bolt seems to produce a fly wheel effect.

By the way, if I could have my perfect action it would be a Model 70 push feed but made bigger to take the 378 type case and have in line feed.

Most Wby critics such as 500 grains know little of the Wby. On another thread he listed all their faults but in the process miss all the main faults. His list of faults could have been fixed by Product Upgrade or Build a Custom Rifle and what they will actually do goes beyond the Wby web site. You can have a classic stock, all sorts or metal finishes including matte bluing, shiny or satin stock finish, open sights, all steel bottom metal, Kreiger cut rifle barrel and action work etc and etc.

But some people must find they work OK. In their pre packaged custom stuff a 460 Safari is a $1000US dearer than a 450 Dakota African. On their higher level rifles or upgrading rifles such as the Safari with wood or Kreiger match barrel etc you hit a 2 year waiting list.

And all those blokes that hate Wbys but think the 500 A Square is the way to go for the best big bore, they had better hope we keep buying big Wbys otherwise the brass will not be there

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Most Wby critics such as 500 grains know little of the Wby. On another thread he listed all their faults but in the process miss all the main faults. His list of faults could have been fixed by Product Upgrade or Build a Custom Rifle and what they will actually do goes beyond the Wby web site.

Huh?

You mean the Wby custom shop can turn the Mark V into a CRF and replace the sheet metal feed lips with milled bar stock? And can they make the mag hold 4 + 1? Can the custom shot get rid of those ridiculous 9 locking lugs (how many actualy bear load - 4?)?

quote:

And all those blokes that hate Wbys but think the 500 A Square is the way to go for the best big bore, they had better hope we keep buying big Wbys otherwise the brass will not be there

Who ever said "BEST"?

Easiest. Cheapest. Fastest. Most likely to be successful even if the gunsmith is a hack.

500,

From the post

1. Not controllled feed. I regard that as a positive and especially when combine iwth in line feed.
2. No iron sights (usually). You are big on a gunsmith checking a rifle. Wby has an array of pre packaged custom guns, Product Upgrade, Bulding a Custom Gun that soon takes care of the iron sight situation.
3. 9 locking lugs is B.S. I bet only 3 of them make good contact. They musy be good steal when people keep saying Mausers will set ack if used continually with high pressure loads in the 404 Jeffery, a smaller case head than the 378 calibres.

But the 9 little lugs serve another purpose. When a Wby bolt is closed the two lower sets of lugs are at the 4 O'Clock and 8 O'Clock position and this allows a Weatherby to have a very long magazine in relation to receiver length. The little lugs also mean the inside of the receiver is not cut away by two big locking lug recesses.
4. Not a particularly safe action in the event of a barrel obstruction. Those 9 locking lugs have been known to let go and permit the bolt to travel rearward through the shooter's cheek. Doesn't happen with a Mauser or M70 Classic.

After careful examination even Ken Howell said the event was dodgy. The bolt handle would have had to have sheared off for the bolt to go through the shooters cheek. Remember a Wby is an a one piece bolt. Of all the actions about the place and in combination with the chamberings, notably 30/378 available in the cheap Synthetic action they would be the most thrashed action out there and should be falling appart everywhere. By the way I have personally fired a 378 where the powder measure was set for maz loads with IMR 4350 and 270 grain Hornadys but the measure was used with Varget. A near as we could tell by using fired cases fired on the same day there appeared to be perhaps a .001" or less set back in the action. I did not realise what happened until I went to open the bolt.

5. Factory loads and publshed ballistics WAY too hot. The majority of 300 Wby ammo I have chronographed has been in the 3150 to 3180 area, fully 100 f/s under what it can be easily loaded to. 378 ammo typically chronographs at the 3080 mark with 270 grain bullets, again, fully 100 f/s under what you can load to.

6. Stocks too shiny (usually). Again you have an options list.

7. Monte Carlo. Personal preference. many shooters, myself included find both recoil and quick shouldering of the rifle is best served by a stock where the centre of the butt is well below the axis of the bore. The monte carlo is to make such stocks suitable for scope use.

Lazzeroni use an almost identical stock shape. I am not using Lazzeroni as endorsement but just to illustrate we are in person preference area. We have a high grade glass stock maker in Australia who makes the Wby style and the American classic style and he recommends the Wby style for the big bangers, of which he does many because of the CZs.

8. Only 2 rounds in the mag. Again the options list and you can have 3 in the magazine. Also rememeber the the in line Wby can be loaded into the magazine while the bolt is closed on a round. I know you can si the same with a staggered feed but the feeding reliability can be and often is stuffed and doubly so if a CRF.

9. A lot of Mark V's shoot like crap. But that problem seems to have gotten better lately. Partly agree. Some were very bad in the 1970s. The combination of feebore diameter being too large, long thin barrels that were not good barrel and being shot to over heating.

10. The Mark V safety can be rattled into unreliability. Maybe Wby fixed that, I don't know. Don't know as I don't use a safety. But the following might be of consideration. Wbys in general are highly regarded in Australia where we do far more shooting than any other place and we do it from the vehichle and rifles spend a lot of time in the heat, dust and vehicle. A full nights spotlight shooting and the land cruiser needs to be refueled for the next night. As a side note, Rem 700s are highly regarded in Australia as well.

11. When the sheet metal feed lips get bent (happens sometimes) forget about the rifle feeding. And YES, it does happen. Ever hear of anyone bending the rails on a Mauser?

I have never seen that happen on a Wby and find it strange that it would as they are very heavy. But if does, then buy a spare magazine box because a Wby only depends on the magazine box for feeding, action rails play no part. A similar rifle was and is the 303 SMLE.

Try chasing roos and pigs with a 303 SMLE and a Mauser and you will see that the Brits learnt the limitations of the Mauser and so went in another direction.

By the way, in your listing of Wby faults you actually left out the main (and true) faults associated with the Wby action and in particular those associated with the 9 lugs. Would you like me to list the faults for you.

quote:

You mean the Wby custom shop can turn the Mark V into a CRF and replace the sheet metal feed lips with milled bar stock? And can they make the mag hold 4 + 1? Can the custom shot get rid of those ridiculous 9 locking lugs (how many actualy bear load - 4?)?

The optional magazine will allow 4 + 1 in the H&H based calibres and they chamber up to 458 Lott.

It is 3 + 1 in 378 case size.

Given Mauser type actions apparently set back with high pressue loads on big case heads and given the thashing that many Wbys get, especially 30/378, they must have great steal if 4 tiny lugs will hold up

Mike

I do not like Weatherby rifles / calibers - it's a Ford vs Chevy kinda thing for me, that's all.

But, Texas Big Game hunting legend Henry Bynum uses a .416 Wby and has had tremendous success on all of the biggn's with it - Ele. Rhino, Buff...Take one look at his monster trophy room and you might consider a Wby!!!!

Seems that one can argue about this until the end of time and get nowhere fast!

My .02

JW out

OK, so they custom shop CANNOT fix the defects in the Wby action.

quote:

OK, so they custom shop CANNOT fix the defects in the Wby action.

In the same manner as H&H or whoever with Mauser inherent faults in the action.

Also check Jeff Wemmer's post above.

We are now wasting bandwidth and for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don't like the Wby action as much as you like the Mauser. You will note that I am happy to list and elaborate on Wby design problems. What I like is the overall package offered on the Wby rifle and that includes right down to Australian import agent.

I believe (and I think the majority of gun designers would agree) that in line feed is the most reliable and double so for big bores with flat nose bullets.

My current order with Wby includes spare magazines, springs and followers for the 378 system. If my rifles were coming from Dakota, Empire etc then a feeding problem would be a much bigger deal than with the Weatherby.

If I have a feeding problem with a Wby it will be confined to the magazine system.

I have no desire to be running around Australia finding a gunsmith to fix a feeding problem on a Dakota or Granite or having to send the rifle back to America.

The point of the above 500 grains is that we assess rifles differently and on a different basis and a different location.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
The point of the above 500 grains is that we assess rifles differently and on a different basis and a different location.

Mike

Of course!

Teat Hound
Back to your original question.
I have experience with 9 375 and 4 458 Weatherby Dangerous Game Rifles. These rifles are used by a group of people responsible for dangerous game escapes. We shoot these rifles on a regular basis, doing drills that are "high" speed. So far we have not had any problems. The iron sights work good. We also have scopes mounted in QD mounts.
If I was picking a 375 for myself I would choose the Blaser R93 Safari in 375 or 416. If the Blaser had been avialable in 458 I would have chosen those for the "Project".
I have owned Weatherby rifles in 257, 300 [2], 340, and 416. I have fired 2 different 378's and a 460. I never had a problem with any of them.
The Weatherby DGR's in 375 and 458 handle the recoil well, they are not unplesant to shoot.
I just prefer the Blaser.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

As for the magazine capasity, is a double barreled express rifle not for dangerous game?

A wby Mark V lacks the speed of 2 quick shots that a double rifle offers. If the buffalo is inside of 15 feet and coming after you, even God himself could not get off 2 shots with a Wby, but any normal shooter could with a double rifle. And being only a 3 shot rifle, the Wby gives up some firepower compared to standard Mausers and Model 70.

If a Buffalo is inside of 15 feet, what is going to save you is the activity between your ears - not the brand of rifle in your hands.

As a professional gunsmith for the last 15 years, educated at the Colorado School of Trades, I do not claim to know everything about guns, but I will state that I have seen failures on any kind of action on the market.

Never been to Africa myself, but a good client of mine has been there many times using a Custom Weatherby made by me. It was chambered for .378WeaMag for some years, then rebarreled to .416 Rigby. It have seen pretty rough use, spesially in Mozambique were it also served as a paddle-oar. It never failed, but many of the other brands in camp had different problems.
Of course, others will tell similar stories with other brands.
Truly, no man in his right mind would hunt dangerous game without having the rifle checked by a copetent gunsmith - no matter what brand.

I have personally jammed M-98's. Not because of the gun, but because of a boiled brain.( Speed shooting competition)

This dicussion seems to be kept alive by fanatics more than common sense. Is green more pretty than red?
To say that a gun MUST have surtain specifications to classify as a dangerous game rifle is to me kind of silly.
When a Mod 70 safety is added to the list I can only yawn.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

And all those blokes that hate Wbys but think the 500 A Square is the way to go for the best big bore, they had better hope we keep buying big Wbys otherwise the brass will not be there

Who ever said "BEST"?

Easiest. Cheapest. Fastest. Most likely to be successful even if the gunsmith is a hack.

???????? If You think alternating an Enfield to .500 A-square is a piece of cake, doable by a hack gunsmith, I truly question your seriousity.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

And all those blokes that hate Wbys but think the 500 A Square is the way to go for the best big bore, they had better hope we keep buying big Wbys otherwise the brass will not be there

Who ever said "BEST"?

Easiest. Cheapest. Fastest. Most likely to be successful even if the gunsmith is a hack.

???????? If You think alternating an Enfield to .500 A-square is a piece of cake, doable by a hack gunsmith, I truly question your seriousity.

Mr. Gunsmith,

The easiest way to build a 500 A2 is to buy a CZ550 in 416 Rigby and rebarrel it to 500 A2. the rails need only a minor amount of work. It would be best to tighten the extractor a bit, but not absolutely necessary.

But you already knew that. Right?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:


Mr. Gunsmith,

The easiest way to build a 500 A2 is to buy a CZ550 in 416 Rigby and rebarrel it to 500 A2. the rails need only a minor amount of work. It would be best to tighten the extractor a bit, but not absolutely necessary.

But you already knew that. Right?

I knew that - but stand corrected. I was thinking of the A-square rifle based on the Enfield action, not the cartridge. My mistake. Yet, that was quite obvious, was it not?

No, it wasn't obvious since you were talking about modifying an Enfield action. The discussion above was concerning building a DGR, not about buying one already completed from A-Square.

6 pages and counting!!!

Whoo-wee, you boys need to load-up and go hunting with whatever rifle it is that makes your "powder" burn!!

Well as we speak i just got that silver tip thats been raiding the wifes garden. The range finder said 317 yds. I held 3" high the Wby. roared and there is now one less Ground Hog in Pa. What caliber you say? Its my .300, the one that shot most of my non D.G. heads. Having over 1000 round through it and a bit of throat erosin, it still put them where your lookin. I have had several other American guns that couldnt pull that shot no matter what you did to them. My wife can do the same with her .378 but she doesnt like to brag, i fullfill it for both of us. Most people who say they hate Wbys's either never shot one, cant shoot one because they are recoil shy,cant afford a Mk.V , or they just like to hear them selfs talk. For those of you who have and dont like them i say thats fine just done bad mouth a very good firearm because there are many out there that need you attention and warnings to those unlearnered future victims..Thats what i think. Charlie

quote:

What caliber you say? Its my .300, the one that shot most of my non D.G. heads. Having over 1000 round through it and a bit of throat erosin, it still put them where your lookin. I have had several other American guns that couldnt pull that shot no matter what you did to them. My wife can do the same with her .378 but she doesnt like to brag, i fullfill it for both of us. Most people who say they hate Wbys's either never shot one, cant shoot one because they are recoil shy,cant afford a Mk.V , or they just like to hear them selfs talk. For those of you who have and dont like them i say thats fine just done bad mouth a very good firearm because there are many out there that need you attention and warnings to those unlearnered fu

Hi wynwood.

I don't have a dawg in this fight but I do wish I could source some commentary that I read not long ago regarding the omnipresent CRF/PF debate. The jist of it however, was an old hunter witnessed a post-dinner deer camp version of said debate and finally told one of the CRF defenders of the faith, "Son, if you'd seen as many dead Germans with jammed Mausers as I have, you wouldn't say that".

quote:

Originally posted by rogue1:
I don't have a dawg in this fight but I do wish I could source some commentary that I read not long ago regarding the omnipresent CRF/PF debate. The jist of it however, was an old hunter witnessed a post-dinner deer camp version of said debate and finally told one of the CRF defenders of the faith, "Son, if you'd seen as many dead Germans with jammed Mausers as I have, you wouldn't say that".

rogue1, It doesnt matter if you led some of these hopeless cases around by the nose and showded them the down falls of the great Paul Mauser action, that just got them killed because it jammed and the M-1 Garand did not. They are hope less cases and more time should no be spent on them. Charlie