500 I found that thread. In it you listed what you thought were many faults. But your list had several errors due to what the custom shop does via Product Upgrade and Build a Custom Rifle.

I just listed the more serious faults on Wby actions thatyu missed

The integrity of Wby as a company is an interesting one. They have always been regarded as the prize agency in Australian and because of how they do business. They have been with the one importer for the last 25 years. As a company they will only deal with the appointed agent (financially) and always only have one agent.

Personally I think Wby is at its best value on the 378 based calibres.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:


500,

Can't speak for others but quite sometime ago on one of RIP's 375 Wby threads (I think) I elaborated in detail for you the faults of Wby actions that went well beyond what you had listed.

Mike

Mike, I recall your list of Wby faults, although not all the details. However, the custom shot cannot change the design fundamentals of the Mark V. If the custom shop were using FN actions, this would be a different kettle of fish.

500,

Agree completey but most of the faults you had lsted were shiny finish, sights etc.

But somethings that are faults for one person are not for another. For example, take the 54 degtree bolt lift. For someoe using Wbys all the time they tend to grab the bolt with the whole hand since there is no scope clearance problems. If they then use a two lug action there and hits the scope. On the other hand the person using a two lug action and finger and thumb to open the bolt finds a Wby stiff to lift.

For fast repeat I can beat a two lug user and I think the big heavy Wby bolt has a sort of flywheel effect.

Other things simply depend on preferences. For example I like the fact that Wby (like SMLE 303) uses the magaxine box only and the rails are not involved.

The two worst features of the Wby design is the 54 degree bolt lift gives poor primary extraction, that is, the bolt does not move back as far during bolt lift. With hotter loads and old tired brass this can mean the bolt has handle has to be knocked back to complete extration.

The other bad feature is the bolt nose protruding beyond the lugs and with one row of lugs being at the bottom when the bolt is open the Wby effectively turns every calibre into a rebated rim. If you have fast hands and a weak spring bias at the rear you will be too quick for the case to rise and the bottom lug will engage the case qand then we have a jam.

I have never seen anyone able to do it when actually working the rifle but you can holding the rifle at hip level and just cycling the action but not firing.

Like a Mauser they have the screw into the recoil lug but because they have a big recoil lug there is little stock material between the floorplate and bottom of the recoil lug.

Of factory big bores they are good because the barrel lug in is on the barrel reinforce and does not cause accuray problems or potential accuracy problems.

The feed very reliably and especially the in line feed 378 based calibres although the combination of stong magazine spring and the locking lugs they tend to scratch up those nice shiny big cases I will back the in line feed against ANY staggered feed CRF any day because no matter how well a CRF is made brass quality and dimensions is vital.

In my opinion a CRF would be better if in line feed and with the long primary extraction affored by the narrow locking lugs the gap between the extractor and bolt face could be bigger because some of the bolt movement back on opening the bolt would still allow for plenty of primary extraction.

If we forget Wbys via the custom shop and just consider the standard Deluxe it comes with the barrel recoil lug epoxied bedded, the metal rod through the wrist of the stock and like a Rem 700 the tang sits on top of the wood, it has the in line feed and optional 3 shot magazine and I don't think that qualifies for "run the other way if for DG"

Lastly, if I could have my action of choice it would be the M70 push feed but made big enough for the 378 case and an in line feed system.

If had a Mauser I could alter then I would have the recoil lug moved forward and made bigger, a tang with good bedding area....I think I am about to wind up at the M70

Mike

500

PS,

If took a Safari grade Wby in 460 and a Dakota African in 450 out of the box I would bet the Wby would be the most field ready and that would not be because it is $1000US dearer than the Dakota but because of in line feed and push feed system. You can throw Empire in as well.

Mike

Mike, here are the features I was praising in the example DGRs that I pictured in this thread:

quote:

- controlled feed/claw extractor for reliable feeding and extraction

- blade ejector for reliable case ejection

- drop box magazine - just in case

- 4+ shot capacity for hot and heavy moments

- hammer block safety for safety (safer than trigger block)

- iron sights because dirty work is done up close

- quick release scope mounts to get the scope out of the way when not plains game hunting

- adequate caliber for the big fellows

There are several of those that are not found in a Mark V. That is my only point.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

The other bad feature is the bolt nose protruding beyond the lugs and with one row of lugs being at the bottom when the bolt is open the Wby effectively turns every calibre into a rebated rim. If you have fast hands and a weak spring bias at the rear you will be too quick for the case to rise and the bottom lug will engage the case qand then we have a jam.

You probably recall that I mentioned I know a gunsmith who used to work for Wby in the 1960's. He spent his days at Wby doing two things: (i) tweaking the feed lips of Mark V rifles in .378 to get them to feed (warranty), and (ii) replacing FN receivers on .300 Wbys due to lug setback (also warranty).

500grains,
Give up on Mike378. He will get nauseated if he even considers a .460 Wby, or .416, or .378, chambering in a Mauser 98 Magnum, Wells Mauser Magnum, Granite Mountain, Dakota, BBK, BRNO ZKK, CZ 550 Magnum, etc. ... It will never be permissable unless it is in a Mark V.

controlled feed/claw extractor for reliable feeding and extraction

Well that is debatable. CRF is fine but needs more going for it to work which is why I would back the Wby Safari against the Dakota African out of the packet. In adddition the Dakota must battle against staggered feed.

I would like to know what your friend did to tweak feed lips on 378s. Are we talking the Mark V? The are very heavy spring steel. In fact sometime ago I tried to bend then closer together to see if 300 Ultra would feed.

The problem I mentioned with the bolt nose is unrelated to the magazine box but is caused by a magazine spring with weak rear bias and very fast hands.

With the FN either they are are as weak as plastic or the Mark V is some sort of super steel. Everyone says the Mark V never touches on more than 3 lugs.

On feeding, there was recently a thread on a 416 Dakota that would bit feed and the problem was traced to being an older Dakota set up for 416 Rigby brass available at the time. CRF has to get that case rim under the extractor and from an angle and have the right dimensions for extractor groove and case rim.

You know in your heart that from the box the Wby Safari has the Dakota beat because the Dakota or Empire needs a lot more going for it to work.

Mike

RIP,

You have not been reading the thread because 500 and myself have not been discussing the wrongs or rights of Wby calibres in non Wby rifles.

I might add and have said this before that I think a correctly working staggered feed is the nicest of all action to see being cycled. The in line push feed looks like a 22 rimfire but it will always win on reliability.

Mike

Wrong Mike. I have been reading the thread with much amusement. This other issue is a humorous sideline. Even if you would accept a CRFE action, it still could not be in a Weatherby caliber without making you puke.

A CRFE with a single-stack-in-line box would indeed be nice, and a necessity for rebated rims.

I traded in a Weatherby Mark V "Custom Deluxe" in .460 Wby for a BRNO ZKK 602 in .375 H&H with factory stock and an unfinished custom Circassian stock. This became first a .378 Wby, then rebarreled to 500 A2/.510 JAB, with Wisner safety and McMillan stock, and the original custom walnut stock went onto a CZ 550 .375 RUM.

I would much prefer some of the listed CRFE's to a Mark V for a .460 Weatherby or such.

The E in CRFE is the key, as you have admitted yourself in a round about way above. A self-locking Mauser extractor is the sine qua non for a DGR. Unfortunately, Dakota 76's are not CRFE.

Just highjacking the thread ...

Ron,

I could probably in rifles like HS Precision, Nesika, Prairie Gun Works etc.

With calibres like 300 and 375 H&H, 404 etc I would want them in CRF actions.

I can and have accepted CRF and with happiness. What I am not prepared to accept is that CRF is the ultimate road to to the cycling of the rounds. It is like the Morgan car, a nice car with real character.

And again, I will back the Safari Wby against Dakota African as they come from the box and in 460 and 450. Actually I will make it easier for the Dakota and just use a standard Wby Deluxe with sights added via product upgrade.

Mike

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
controlled feed/claw extractor for reliable feeding and extraction

Well that is debatable. CRF is fine but needs more going for it to work which is why I would back the Wby Safari against the Dakota African out of the packet. In adddition the Dakota must battle against staggered feed.

A standard Win model 70 in .375 feeds just great, unless you get one of guns build when the machinist had a hangover. The only read advantage of inline feed is for rebated rims, so the problem is essentially limited to .500 Jeff and .585 Nyati. Even those are no problem in staggered feed if a master does it (budget $10K to $20K).


However, assuming that the rifle is built competently, CRF and claw extractor are more reliable. And with overpressure Wby factory ammo, you might need a claw extractor!

quote:

I would like to know what your friend did to tweak feed lips on 378s.

I have no idea. It was part of our discussion when he was planning to build a .585 Nyati for me. He mentioned it in the context of steering me away from a Wby mag box as an unreliable feeding system. Instead he used a Jeffery style single stack arrangement.

quote:

With the FN either they are are as weak as plastic or the Mark V is some sort of super steel. Everyone says the Mark V never touches on more than 3 lugs.

The FN is case hardened so the steel is soft on the inside. Fine for .375 HH pressures, not so great for .300 Wby pressures with hot factory loads, especially after carving out some of the action meat that is supposed to support the bottom bolt lug.

quote:

On feeding, there was recently a thread on a 416 Dakota that would bit feed and the problem was traced to being an older Dakota set up for 416 Rigby brass available at the time. CRF has to get that case rim under the extractor and from an angle and have the right dimensions for extractor groove and case rim.

Dakota has never been known for great quality control, so maybe the comparison to Wby is apt. But neither would be my first choice for a DGR. Although a Dakota, tuned up by a competent smith, would have the edge.

500

Staggered feed is less of an issue for the 375 because the shoulder is only about like a 7 x 57 and the chamber diameter is much bigger than the case diameter.

But a bur on the bolt face or a protruding primer will put a CRF if in shit but not a push feed.

Ammo that has been loaded a lot and chewed up rims and is caught up in shit when spotlight shooting don't help CRF.

The places where the highest volume of shooting is done and under the worse condition such as the military and Australia is ruled by push feed.

I deliberately picked the Dakota because the brass is an unknown. Bt incorrect extractor groove or rim diameters would not worry the Wby.

It has often been said that conversion to push feed was for cheapness. Another indicator that push feed will work when things are not made as well as they could be.

It is also interesting that of the common factory rifles it is the expensive ones which are push feed such as Sako, Blaser, Weatherby etc.

Commonsense will tell you that it must be more difficult to get a case rim to silde under an extractor and while doing it at an angle and equally commonsense will tell you that not only does the in line feed magazine have more control over the cartridge but the angle entering the chamber is smaller and the same for every round.

Mike

500

PS

Lets make it Wby Vs Empire, both chambered for 450 Rigby, using Bertram brass and very wide flat points.

Mike.

Mike,

In order for your Wby comparison to work, you have to compare a Wby to a defective CRF rifle.

Compare a Wby to a properly assembled CRF rifle and the Wby presents almost all disadvantage.

If it takes a $10K investment to acquire a tool which will save my life, then I will make the investment. Even a minor injury will cost more than the price difference between a Wby and a decent custom big bore gun, or an entry level double.

I know someone who used a 30-378 Mark V in Africa in the summer. Every shot the bolt had to be hammered open. A couple of times the spent case had to be tapped out with a willow.

Wby owners intent on dangerous game hunting would do well to follow RIP's example. IMO

500grains,
Your words have steel in them. All should heed: Trade in those Mark V's chambered in DG calibers.

Mike378,
You take the art of DG hunting to a new level: Make the rifle dangerous for the hunter and possibly dangerous to the quarry. More sporting. Even the odds. You da man!

Will you be offering a line of videos in association with Mark Sullivan? Might break the monotony of gut shooting buffalo to induce a charge. Could be instructive in techniques of tree climbing and May Pole evasion techniques, drop and play dead, staring and grinning techniques, using Wby Mark V as poker (gouging eyeballs and cramming down throats of menacing critters?), club (butt stroke to the boss or nose?) or crowbar (get this thing off of me, pry his jaws open, please?), "Fix bayonet!" etc.

Mike: There for a while I thought there was a genuine discussion going on...but I see all has fallen on deaf ears...

500

My last example is letting you pick Empire or whatever you like but I have stipulated 450 Dakota chambering.....the point being the push feed does not have the same dependence on rim and extactor groove diameter.

Whether push feed or CRF both gain reliability by centre line feed and especially for 458 Win/Lott type calibres when blunt or flat nose bullets are used.

As to Wby ammo I have never had the problems and it does get rather hot in Australia. The calibres I ave chronographed a fair bit have been the 300 and 378. The 300 has been around 3180 with 180s, which is under what you can load and the 378s have been just under and just over 3100 which is also under a top handload.

However all these gun comparisons depend so much on use and conditions. In addition we tend to better with what we like. I have used 375 M70s to blast roos, goats and pigs for over 30 years and the push feeds proved most reliable, Could e quality control. Could be that when you are chasng roos or spotlighting the magazine runs out ad you are single loading and that night with continual use knock the extractors about on the CRFs.

But if my life depended on it I would take centre line feed push feed, although I would take HS Precision because of greater primary extraction than a Weatherby has.

But in all honesty it does not worry me enough to make a decision based on Push Feed Vs CRF. For a custom 375 H&H, 300 H&H, 404 etc I would want CRF and ditto for 450 Rigby. But for 378 Wby, 300 Ultra etc then I would choose Wbym HS Precision, Nesika etc. Just seems to fit together for me.

But I do know if I converted a CZ to 460 then shooting 400 Speers or 500 Hornadys backwards would cause me feeding problems.

Mike

Oh yeah, I forgot that a Zeiss Jena 4X came with the BRNO ZKK 602 also, That really made me itchy to trade off the MarV .460 Wby.

I still hang onto 3 Mark V rifles in sheep and varmint calibers (.270 Win Ultralightweight, .30-378 Synthetic with HS precision stock replacement, and a .340 Fibermark that goes back to 1985 with me, though the old McMillan stock has been replaced by a Wby Custom Shop stock).

I also have a .257 Wby Ruger M77/Shilen, a .300 Wby Remington M700 Classic (1988), and a .378 Wby CZ 550 that now resides in the old Fibermark stock, but I need to rebuild around the magazine well and paint. And 3 of the .375 Wby rechambers: Mark X, M70, and CZ 550 Magnum.

Nothing wrong with a Mark V for sheep and varmints ... roos, goats, pigs.

Nothing wrong with the Weatherby cartridges, except that the factory ammo may be too hot for the situation: must handload for many situations, including DG.

I don't like the sheet metal lips that guide the cartridges out of the magazine on a Mark V with .378 Wby based cases in single stack, two down. I had to do an adjustment on the ones on my .460 Mark V, as it came from the factory. I think they got .378 "lips" on my .460. It was a wee bit of a pisser, but I bent them until they worked, then I got rid of it, and it was quickly snapped up by a Japanese Alaskan who liked "Made in Japan."

Weatherby Dangerous Game Rifle = oxymoron

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
Mike: There for a while I thought there was a genuine discussion going on...but I see all has fallen on deaf ears...

I believe the deaf ears are the ears that refused to listen to stories of Wby failing in the field (see posts above). Some people would call that stubborn.

Hello 500grs! . I do not know which failure you are referring to...I have been shooting Weatherby's in all kinds of conditons and at all sorts of game (including game in Africa) for 10 years or more, and I have never had a problem with my rifles...(what problem are you having with yours?)..I do not know all the engineering stuff, but I do not need to...I like to read books but I have never written one, and while I may not know all about how rifles work, I certainly do know a good rifle when I see and use one...I use rifles all the time, sometimes for work, and frequently in really lousy conditions, and I have never seen a rifle that works as well as a Weatherby Mark V .378...hands down the best. (A Rem 870 shooting big slugs comes in second). Am I stubborn? You bet ...Are you ornery and tenacious? Absolutely ...

I would need emperical evidence (one of my guns would have to fail in some way that is clearly a design flaw) before I would change my opinion...and then I would probably get a single shot or double rifle.

The guns you show are way too pretty and shiney (like pimp guns, so to speak), too many flowers scrolled on them, and they look like they would get hurt in Alaska, the first time they were dropped in a creek or river, or used as a walking stick or rained on or frozen. Nice wood though.

If you lost the wood and metal scroll (the gold enlay is a nice touch, but useless (we are back to the Las Vegas pimp stuff), then parkerize the barrel and action, and give it an in-line-feeding magazine, then removed all moving parts from the bolt (the plunger can stay), then you would have a DGR.

I do like your elephant (who wouldn't). What did you shoot it with?

500 and RIP,

Your postings are on the basis that the Wby is a walking fault machine.

But if you go to Gunsmithing the feeding problems posed are continually with CRFs and that also applies to forums like 24Hours and also an Australian site.

The boast is that the Echols of the world can make these things feed. There are threads that go on about how the magazines have to be setup and hown the timing has to be right as the cartridge is pushed forward.

The price of the large Wbys suggests a socio economic group who can afford to get gunsmithing work done. Ditto for Sauer and Blaser owners.

The Robgunbuilders have become "experts" by advising on how and where to get these actions fixed so they will work.

With my limited means I can't afford to buy the expensive rifle that then needs a bundle of gunsmithing.

If someone was just entering shooting and read all these forums he would be quickly turned off CRF actions and head to Sauer, Sako, Blaser and Weatherby if reliability of feeding was his criteria.

At the high levels of these CRF rifles such as Dakota and Empire, 500 grains is not prepared to back one against even a standard Wby Deluxe and especially if all three are chambered in the 450 Dakota.

Mike

Try 15lb 8br with a charge of 12 or 14 drams of BP pushing 3oz projectile of hardened metal.

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
I do not know which failure you are referring to.

Read the thread.

Here is what this subjects boils down to me.
I have a 460 DGR with 1100 rounds fired out of it.
Will i be able to fire a couple more shots out of it before the bolt slams back in my face & the magazine dumps all the ammo on the ground?..YES
Will the 500 grain FMJ going at 2600 feet per second do the job on the Cape Buff..yes!

Seems like i'm in a good position for my buff hunt next month!

AKA,

This might help your confidence as this bloke managed to fire his 460 3 times.

http://www.safaripress.com/page26.html

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
AKA,

This might help your confidence as this bloke managed to fire his 460 3 times.

http://www.safaripress.com/page26.html

Mike thanks for that pic. And number 3 too!

quote:

Originally posted by AKA:
Seems like i'm in a good position for my buff hunt next month!

Good luck next month. I hope to go that way in a year or two. Thump one for me!

eric

See what you thread developed into

For some reasons Weatherby threads very often get up and running.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
eric

See what you thread developed into

For some reasons Weatherby threads very often get up and running.

Mike

Yeah, she grew some legs, didn't she? I enjoy the passionate/opinionated debates though.

Well, one thing is for certain: A Weatherby doesn't make a good DGR unless you're shooting Sierra MATCHKING bullets!!!

-Bob F.

Bob,

That could be a good thread. Using the 338/378 (Mark V of course made and as a Crown Custom) with Matchings on lions. It could rival the 45/70 threads.

A mate of mine reckons if so many people did not hate Wbys then I would lose my keeness of them

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Bob,

That could be a good thread. Using the 338/378 (Mark V of course made and as a Crown Custom) with Matchings on lions. It could rival the 45/70 threads.

A mate of mine reckons if so many people did not hate Wbys then I would lose my keeness of them

Mike

there is some truth in that!

To those of you who are new, this is what happenes when you discuss any topic that is a love it or hate it issue. We could have started this thread on the question like; " Is the 450/900/3 3/7 a good round for pigmy goats when hunted on top of a moving vehicle while drinking an import beer or do you think i should but a CZ American in 950/600 ?" The results would be the same, or very simular to what happens when many people spill their ideas out to be ,hacked, run over,set on fire, and in general trashed. Thats why i like this forum. Charlie

rwj: what the hell are you doin kneelin behind my bear. isn't that the one you told me i could get if i came to Alaska.....i shoulda figured i left too soon.....it sure looks like the one i was supposed to get.....

Changing ther subject slightly but back to an earlier comment (Charlie), the "Worlds Strongest Action" is kind of pointless in a world where shearing bolt lugs hasn't happened since the Ross rifle, isn't it (Blaser collet failure excluded )?

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:

quote:

Originally posted by AKA:
Seems like i'm in a good position for my buff hunt next month!

Good luck next month. I hope to go that way in a year or two. Thump one for me!

Thank you.. I hope you make it over very soon!

I do have a question for you pros. I had planned on taking over barnes X but my PH (John Sharp) asked me to bring over solids too. So i'll bring over FMJ. I'm only using factory loads on the trip. I thought Barnes X were classified as solids. Thanks for your help.

I just love it when 500grs let's the air out of Mike 375's Pimp gun obsession. I laughed my ass off! -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by AKA:
I do have a question for you pros. I had planned on taking over barnes X but my PH (John Sharp) asked me to bring over solids too. So i'll bring over FMJ. I'm only using factory loads on the trip. I thought Barnes X were classified as solids. Thanks for your help.

The barnes X is a monometal expanding bullet.

The term solid is an interesting one, as what is generally meant by the term is a non-expanding bullet. That could be either a thick jacketed bullet with the jacket covering the nose ie FMJ, not a true solid, or a mono-metal bullet such as the barnes or others that are designed not to expand.

I guess hardcast bullet could be considered a solid as well, though I don't know if I should open that can of worms especially if it is launched from a 45-70