500: Here is what am talking about...this is D'Arcy Echols' M70, fixed up so that it will work right:

Current Legend rifles utilize an extensively modified and refined Winchester Model 70 claw extractor action. Synthetic stocks are built by special order. Models include the Standard Sporter ($6,150 MSR), Dangerous Game Model ($6,750 MSR), and Long Range Model ($6,450 MSR). Additionally, many special orders and options are also available. Please contact the company for more information (see Trademark Index).http://eelement.appolis.com/bluebook/download/BrowseModel.asp?product=BBP&Heading=597&HeadingName=LEGEND&CategoryName=RIFLES%3A+BOLT+ACTION&Link=1081&Level=1

Now to me this sounds like an $800 rifle from Wal-Mart with $6K added on to make it work. I think this may be a used gun as well. There are other good examples for the M70 as well (see Patrick Holehan.)

I would not imply that readers of this forum would be fooled by the point I was making.

From a 500 grains posting:

The Jeffery is very difficult to get to feed. If you decide to get a Jeffery, only have one built by the handful of experts in the field (Duane Wiebe, Sterling Davenport, Dennis Olson, Ryan Breeding, Joe Smithson, Reimer Johannsen, Karl Heinz Ritterbusch, Gottfried Prechtl). Otherwise, you could end up with a $10K piece of junk.

I would bet a 460 by could be changed to 500 Jeffery with ease. You might have to widen the magazine lips a bit but perhaps not.

Whhat is interesting is that if we take the more common ezpensive factory rifles such as Weatherby, Sako, Sauer, Blaser they are all push feeds. I think that is because the smle push feed, especially the in line feeders does not have the trouble and these dearer rifle makers don't want their rifles coming back fr feeding problems or the never ending postings on feeding problems associated with CRFs.

Now I understand a competent gunsmith can get these things to work but why fuck about with a design that has problems in the first place.

In my opinion the problem is that the CRF was not designed around big wide cartridges with blunt bullets which have to get under the extractor at a steeper angle, they can't affor to be off line by much other wise the bullet catches the edge of the chamber.

Let's remember that the M70, Granite or M98 are very similar in size. They are not scaled up in size to match the difference in size between big magnums and a 7 X 57.

Any hinderance to that case rim sliding between the extractor and bolt face and the cartridge will be put off line and then we have it hit the edge of the chamber.

Mike

My first "Big One" was MAGNUM Mauser with 5 shot mag, but now that I am real good I found no need for one. I advanced into "just enough gun category". I look for compact and powerful package with perfect "marriage" of cartridge to action size.

quote:

THe Mark V is not a dangerous game rifle. It lacks controlled feed and only holds 2 rounds in the magazine. And would someone care to comment on whether the safety is a trigger block or hammer block design?

Many men lived for years in Africa as hunters an PH's, who never used controlled feed rifles. You are of course free to state your opinion, but I'd rather stick to the opinions of men like Finn Aagaard.How many stories have You heard of about people getting mauled by dangerous game because their push-feed rifles have failed? Does Weatherby rifles have a bad name in Africa?

About the safety; it may not have been designed in a wind-tunnel, but is extremely easy to operate, and I would much prefer it on a rifle for dangerous game than a mod.70.
It inerfers with the fiering pin, thus blocks the hammer.And locks the handle.

As for the magazine capasity, is a double barreled express rifle not for dangerous game?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
I'd rather stick to the opinions of men like Finn Aagaard.

How about the opinion of the vast majority of professional hunters pursuing dangerous game who insist on CRF if their personal rifles?

quote:

Does Weatherby rifles have a bad name in Africa?

Yes.

quote:

As for the magazine capasity, is a double barreled express rifle not for dangerous game?

A wby Mark V lacks the speed of 2 quick shots that a double rifle offers. If the buffalo is inside of 15 feet and coming after you, even God himself could not get off 2 shots with a Wby, but any normal shooter could with a double rifle. And being only a 3 shot rifle, the Wby gives up some firepower compared to standard Mausers and Model 70.

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
500: Here is what am talking about...this is D'Arcy Echols' M70, fixed up so that it will work right:

Current Legend rifles utilize an extensively modified and refined Winchester Model 70 claw extractor action. Synthetic stocks are built by special order. Models include the Standard Sporter ($6,150 MSR), Dangerous Game Model ($6,750 MSR), and Long Range Model ($6,450 MSR). Additionally, many special orders and options are also available. Please contact the company for more information (see Trademark Index).http://eelement.appolis.com/bluebook/download/BrowseModel.asp?product=BBP&Heading=597&HeadingName=LEGEND&CategoryName=RIFLES%3A+BOLT+ACTION&Link=1081&Level=1

Now to me this sounds like an $800 rifle from Wal-Mart with $6K added on to make it work. I think this may be a used gun as well. There are other good examples for the M70 as well (see Patrick Holehan.)

I would not imply that readers of this forum would be fooled by the point I was making.

Sure, but let's not stop there. How about a top end Al Biesen Model 70 for $25K? That's an $800 Wal Mart gun with $24,200 added to it.

But those prices don't mean you cannot get a reliable model 70 up and running for $1200.

However, there is no reason to argue about apples and oranges. For guys who want an el cheapo gun, there are reliable options such as a M70 with about $400 extra dropped into it. For guys who like pimp guns, there are also options. And for guys who want a high end Mauser or M70, there are gunsmiths serving that niche too.

500:

And how many stories have You heard of from Africa of men being mauled by dangerous game becuse of their Weatherby failed?

500

You seem to want to ignore the fact that CRF rifles have the big advantage of being low in price.

They also provide the best avenue for making a cheap rifle because of cheap Mauser actions. I am well aware that a Mauser action is an expensive proposition if one wants one done right to a high end custom gun. But for a gun that will go "bang" the military Mauser is an el cheapo starting point and finishing point.

Your quote THe Mark V is not a dangerous game rifle. It lacks controlled feed and only holds 2 rounds in the magazine. And would someone care to comment on whether the safety is a trigger block or hammer block design?
also illustrates that when it comes to Wbys you choose to ignore facts. The original poster asked about a 375 which comes standard at 3 shot magazine. The 375 can be taken to 4 shots and the 378 based calibres can be taken to 3 shots with the optional magazine.

If I want a 375 and my funds are limited (or I don't want soend much) then I have the CZ, a ex military Mauser conversion, a Model 70. Push feed will mean Rem Custom shop, HS Precision, Sako, Weatherby, Blaser, Sauer. Since I will probably want open sights the lower price Wby Synthetic is out and I would need to do a product up grade and that does not mean adding sights to the Wby Synthetic becaue Product Upgrade starts with a barreled action that costs a lot more than the Wby Synthetic rifle.

It is consistantly posted on the African forum that the very lage majority of African PHs use low cost rifles and CRF is where the low cost rifles are found in calibres like 375.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
500:

And how many stories have You heard of from Africa of men being mauled by dangerous game becuse of their Weatherby failed?

Mauled? No. But I do know people whose Weatherby failed in the field.

The vast majority of hunters do not take a Wby into a dangerous game situation. (which shows good judgment on their part)

Mike,

If your low cost argument held water, then PHs would use Rem 700's. But they don't. They use M70's and CZs because those are the most affordable CRF rifles.

But a Wby need not be so much more expensive. About 2 years ago a local gunshop had a Mark V in .460 with a Leupold 1-4x scope and a shiny stock for US$1000.

Or right now you can buy a Mark V in .460 for $1868:



So it is really not money which keeps guys away from the Mark V. Rather, it is good judgment.

quote:

Mauled? No. But I do know people whose Weatherby failed in the field.

And there have been no failures from M70s or Mausers?

Why does Saeed's friend and PH Roy Vincent use a Mark V 416 Wby as his back up rifle. We both know Saeed is not short of a dollar and he has also demonstated generosity. If his friend Roy Vincent's Mark V 416 was such a fucking disaster I am sure Saeed could reach into his box of bits and pieces and offer a superior rifle.

Mike

quote:

Or right now you can buy a Mark V in .460 for $1868:

Not with sights and not in Africa.

And does the cost of 460 ammo or brass in Africa compare to 375 and 458

Mike

PS,

I just noticed that is an older 460 as KDF type brake.

Lot of money for an old rifle when he can buy a CZ locally in 375 or 458.

Mike

What do we think about a Sako in 375?

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
What do we think about a Sako in 375?

Which one, the old A V, the Model 75, or their $12k 'safari special'?

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
What do we think about a Sako in 375?

Which one, the old A V, the Model 75, or their $12k 'safari special'?

George

The 75.

Mike,

Few PHs use a .375. The ones who do are primarily young guys who are just using a loaner gun from someone until they can afford better, or the plains game only PHs. 458 Lott, 416 Rem, 416 Rigby, and 470 NE (in doubles) are the most common. There are a few .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .500 NE, .577 NE, although you can potentially find anything.

Lots of PHs make it through an entire season without firing a shot. So even though expensive, ammo is not a significant expenditure compared to other things, like maintaining the land cruiser.

Also, the 460 pictured above has sights (take another look). Like you, I would prefer a CZ over that (or any) Mark V.

quote:

Why does Saeed's friend and PH Roy Vincent use a Mark V 416 Wby as his back up rifle. We both know Saeed is not short of a dollar and he has also demonstated generosity. If his friend Roy Vincent's Mark V 416 was such a fucking disaster I am sure Saeed could reach into his box of bits and pieces and offer a superior rifle.

The actions of one man do not represent a trend.



______________

Teat,

Of all the push feeds out there, a Sako would be my top choice. Even so, if operating on a budget I would prefer a M70 or CZ550 American to the Sako for DG hunting.

eric

As a rifle out of the box real top gear.

Personally, I don't the scope mount system as I don't like the look of Sako mounts. My preference is based screwed and glued and where I have a wide choice of mount.

I don't like their recoil lug system because of difficulty with bedding.

But out of the box they are usually accurate and feed smoothly and reliably. Like Wby, it will be very difficult to locate a thread that is based on feeding problems with Sakos.

Like Wby the barrel, receiver and scope mounts are likely to be in line.

In 375, if I was not caught up in a "family of Wbys " I would probably pick the Sako over the Wby DGR because the Wby only has the in line feed in the calibres based on the 378 case.

Like Wby, they can feek a bit awkward for some people using 2 lug actions all of the time because they are a low lift bolt like Wby.

They are possibly one of the best made factory rifles available.

Mike

500

A new standard Wby Deluxe comes without sights.

To get sights you must do Product Upgrade and only get the Willimans sights. The rifle becomes quite a bit dearer because you don't get the discounting system running on Product Upgrade and of course the extra $200US or so for the sights

To get the NECG type sights you either need to buy the DGR, Safari or Build a Custom Rifle.

Mike

quote:

Few PHs use a .375. The ones who do are primarily young guys who are just using a loaner gun from someone until they can afford better, or the plains game only PHs. 458 Lott, 416 Rem, 416 Rigby, and 470 NE (in doubles) are the most common.

And what woud be the common rifles found in 458 Lott, 416 Rem, 416 Rigby.

Mike

quote:

Lots of PHs make it through an entire season without firing a shot.

That is a great basis for experience

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:


A new standard Wby Deluxe comes without sights.

Sounds like WBy does not intend for those rifles to go to Africa.

Even in a busy season, unless a client shows up who cannot shoot at all, it would be unusual for a PH to shoot up more than a box of ammo (unless his name is Mark Sullivan).

Of course I am not including the trigger happy guys in the equation. (There seem to be too many of such PHs in RSA, who are eager to "help" the client take the animal.)

Sounds like WBy does not intend for those rifles to go to Africa

They have the Safari and DGR and Build a Custom Rife and Product Upgrade and those are the areas they would like you to go.

If you buy an Echols Legend in 416 Rem with scope mounts you can't have iron sights. Are those rifles not intended for Africa. But buy a wood gun and you can have both but now the price goes right up. Sounds like D'Arcy is using some Wby principles

Mike

As I, and many others here have hunted truly, " the most dagerous game" with a M16, I wouldnt loose sleep over useing a non-CRF rifle for anything else.

If you think push feed is bad try Bakers 4br three-groove percussion rifle built for him by Harris Holland.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
What do we think about a Sako in 375?

Which one, the old A V, the Model 75, or their $12k 'safari special'?

George

Is there 12 k safari special a pf or crf ??

Mike, I'm taking an Echols-built 416 Rem. to Tanzania this season. It doesn't have open-sights, just a 1.5-5X Leupold in Echols' bomb-proof scope mounts. I'm taking a second scope that's already sighted-in as backup. I'm not worried about scope problems, and you wouldn't be either if you could hold this rifle in your hand and examine those mounts. They're as tough as they come......

AD

Allen,

I would not be worried either with your Echols or with a Wby and mounts. I could bomb proof with Badger Ordnance or Nightforce mounts.

I was just attempting (as hard it can be) to bring reality into 500 grains views.

By the way it must make you nervous that every second PH in Africa does not have an Echols as his back up rifle. Obviously they must be a poor choice of rifle since the PHs do not have them

Mike

PC,

It is like their normal PF action but with some of the surrounding counterbore removed. Same idea as Winchester has with its PF/CRF.

Imagine taking one of your Rem 700s and cutting away some of the metal from the bolt nose so the case rim can slide in and then under the extractor.

Mike

Reality Mike???

Tell me why you ignore documented failings of the Mark V in the field. That is reality.

500,

If want documented failures of your stagger CRFs just go this site's various forums.

Do you agree that it will be easier to get reliable feeding from a push feed centre line feed than a stagger feed CRF.

Do you agree that it is eaiser to get calibres like 458 Win/Lott to feed broad flat points from an in line feed than a stagger feed.

Do you agree that case rim and extractor groove dimensions are more important for a CRF to be reliable.

Mike

The Weatherby style of stocks is not to my likeing...I don't care for the action at all...but the 375 and 378 wby calibers are awesome killers of DG with proper bullets..

I prefer the Mauser or M-70 control feed actions and so that is what I use..I prefer the English style stocks and that is what I use..I like wood and rust blue so all my guns are that.I like the traditional English calibers and those on the belted case such as the 404, 416 Remington or Rigby, 375 H&H, 300 H&H, 30-06, 270, and 7x57..even the 9.3x62 and 10.75x68..

That said, It comes down to choices, each of us must make our own...I made mine...ya,ll do the same. I won't change and don't expect you to.

PS,

500, according to your meauring methods Allen Day's Echols rifles is a bad choice for his upcooming Africa hunt.

It has no sights so must not be intended for African use.

How many PHs use Echols rilfes.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
PC,

It is like their normal PF action but with some of the surrounding counterbore removed. Same idea as Winchester has with its PF/CRF.

Imagine taking one of your Rem 700s and cutting away some of the metal from the bolt nose so the case rim can slide in and then under the extractor.

Mike

So you get a crf action without the massive extracter seems like a bit of a batstard child.

PC,

A claw extractor looks very big but a only a portion of it fully engages the case rim. I don't have one handy but I would not be suprised if a Wby Vanguard/Howa extractor engaged as much or more of the case rim than many claw extractors.

Here is a picture of it.

http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/75Safari80.pdf

Mike

Mike,

Weatherby has always based its marketing campaigns on glitz rather than on utility.

As for AD's custom rifle, it was custom built to the customer's specifications. No one can fault the riflemaker for following his customer's instructions.

But 500, PHs are not using them. Also I don't think D'Arcy's customer has a choice on the Legend for open sights and scope mounts. Got to go to the wood gun for that choice.

And again

Do you agree that it will be easier to get reliable feeding from a push feed centre line feed than a stagger feed CRF.

Do you agree that it is easier to get calibres like 458 Win/Lott to feed broad flat points from an in line feed than a stagger feed.

Do you agree that case rim and extractor groove dimensions are more important for a CRF to be reliable.

Mike

Mike,

I will be glad to answer your question, but only if you will acknowledge that Wby Mark Vs in 378, 416 and 460 fail in the field. And at home. See the AH article (quoted above). And see the courteous comments of a respected bear guide above (we can read between the lines). And see the experience of the gunsmith I know who had to fix feeding on a lot of Mark Vs. And consider the experience of a person I know who suffered a stuck bolt several times on 2 animals in Africa.

All this is not a track record which recommends the Wby highly.

Do you have a website for the Echols rifles?

500,

I would be amazed if some Mark Vs did not fail in the field, at home, on the target range or anywhere else. Afterall, I am the one who has pointed out the faults in the Mark V design. But you are the on who faild to admit to problems with CRFs. The forum is full of them. You have one at the moment running on a 416 CZ.

The AH article has a bullshit sound because as I said before the bloke keeps firfing after having extraction problems by the 3rd shot and still goes onto fire another 5. Then he needs a 2 pound hammer to open the bolt. That degree of overload would bring on other comment but has the sound of a throw away line.

I don't have an Echols wbsite but I think Allen Day will confirm for you what I said about the Echols Legend and sights/scope Vs wood rifle. I think D'Arcy only has email.

Mike