Hi guys! Long time viewer, first time poster! Does anyone Have any experiance with the 416 Taylor? I'm building a custom mauser and can't decide between that and the 458 Win Mag. I realize the 458 would be better as far as ammo/brass availability. From what i read on this and other forums though, the 416 Taylor seems to be a real good, hard hitting cartridge. I plan on reloading for either caliber eventually, as i accumulate the proper equipment. Also this would be my first big bore rifle, would the 416 be better for a beginner like myself, due to the lighter bullets? I appreciate you reading this! Any help anyone could offer would be greatly valued!!

You can load either for light recoil. Depends on what you want to kill with it.

canuck is probably the most rabbid taylor fan...(that is a compliment)
use the search function and you will go blind before you read it all.

great cart that 416 taylor...

quote:

for a beginner

There is talk here of a .416 Ruger built in a standard action and your Mauser carburized would be a good one. There are a couple of shooters here that have them built and are in a 98. Something to consider. Some more to mull over.

welcome to the AR!

rumor has it the announcement will be te shot show for the 416 ruger. verrrrrrry nice.

use this calculator to help you figurr out bullet weigh/velocity/charge/rifle weight to recoil.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm


also for perspective

http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html

I'd say the 416 Taylor

You will need to reload, no question there

It has such a gentle shoulder, that when you run 458 brass into the die it forms the case straight away, fireforming does very little to the case except sharpen the shoulders

Be careful who does your work, I had trouble with mine, originally, my "gunsmith" chambered in 338 WM and necked it in 416, the result was the shoudler was set too far back about 60 thou.... it was the 416-338 it has been fixed since

I'm running 340 grain Protected point woodlieghs thru mine at 2600 fps and they area pleasure to shoot, go off like a bomb

The 458 has a wide range of pills but the Win Mag case just isn't big enough IMO for the 500 grainers, and if you aint going to run 500 grainers in your 458, then just use the 416 Taylor

best regards
S&F

Taylor vs Lott might be a better question to think about because the Lott is a big improvement on the .458 with enough case capacity for the 500s. What length action are you using?

Thanks for the help so far guys!

Tom, I only have a standard length action I would love to have the Lott but, sigh....I'm working with a VERY tight budget.

416 Ruger? Hmmm! (wheels turning) for standard actions?! Interesting....

I'd say the 458 for the very simple reason of availability. Ammo, components, and data are far more plentiful than the Taylor, and you can buy super-cheap .458 plinking bullets for practice. There's really no practical difference in effectiveness between the two. If you hit something with either one, it's gonna die!

.458

And I've been thru the .416 Taylor stage.

if your budget is tight, get a 458 ...
you can get a used one fairly reasonable
cheap to feed
cheap dies
cheapISH brass

and if you have to get rid of it, it will sell faster than a 416


for fun and joy, the 416 taylor is probably more fun for me

jeffe

got both a .416 taylor and a .416 rem mag m70....3-458's... whitworth, ruger #1, and m70...haven't got the taylor yet, its still at tip burn's... its an eddystone enfield with a shilen #5 contour 20"bbl...i got brass from neal at custom brass and bullets, and mooched differnt bullets off of fellow AR board members... i really like the .416 rem mag, and the whitworth .458... .458 is cheaper to shoot as far as factory, but reloading they will both be the same... my suggestion is to shoot them both and pick the 1 that handles best... either 1 will kill anything that walks, crawls, slithers or flys on any continent...

hard to build one yourself for less than this
458 on a ruger
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2711043/m/184100447

.458 Win.

You know you want one.

I think the 416 Taylor is more versatile than the 458. To really make the best of each of the cartridges the Taylor should be loaded with 350 grain bullets loaded to 2550 fps and the 458 with 450 grain bullets 2300fps. The Taylor will put down anything the 458 will and vice versa. You gain a little trajectory with the Taylor. The brass is a one pass with 458 brass and Quality Cartridge sells headstamped brass for the Taylor. Two boxes of brass would last for many trips overseas. You have to decide what you want to do with your rifle to make a decision from there.
Take good care,
Dave

I have both and definitely love my 416 Taylor more!
I shoot this load and keep the excellent Jamison 416 Taylor headstamped brass for future reloading:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.p...h=61&products_id=230

Hey JABS, how would you rate the quality of that double tap ammo? I've never heard of anyone using it yet...

500 grainers wor just fine in the 458 at an easy 2150fps and often you can go better than 2200 if your rifle has the barrel. 2150 is more than enough for any game, plenty for elephant.

But then, 450 grain North Forks make the 458 shine!!! For anything!!!

If elephants are on your wish list, go for the 458.

If they aren't, either will work great. Unknown to those that hate the 458, it will shoot near as flat as any 416 Rem, Taylor or Rigby (the Rigby loaded to Rem speeds) And 458 ammo is ubiquitious.

JPK

Realistically, there is not a lot of difference. The 416 Taylor is a roll your own special, while the 458 win allows you to buy your ammo. Today's 458 isn't your dad's 458. It will do what it was advertised to do when introduced.

The 416 Taylor and 425 Express are terrific cartridges on a 458 case. For Africa, you must carry loads in a properly head stamped case. The 458 permits that without undue expense.

As far as recoil is concerned, you are looking at a 416 Taylor with 400gr bullets at 2350fps and 458 with 500gr bullets at 2150fps. I don't think you'll notice the difference in recoil-both are hefty. Kudude

I have used DoubleTaps in 8mm Mag, 338WM, 416 Taylor, 45ACP, and 10mm. It is the highest quality ammo that I have shot to date. I highly recommend them.

That's one thing that is making me lean to the the 458. Ammo is pretty much everywhere and the components are cheaper. The 416 bullets, at least from what I have seen only exist in premium form. I checked out the Double Tap web site, everything looks first rate. The prices are pretty easy on you too.

So should I be at all concerned about all of the negative opinions out there about the 458 Win Mag?

Wouldn't worry about it. Your gun and your choice of 458 WinMag.

Another plug for Double Tap ammo. I use their .338 win mag and .454 Casull ammo exclusively in a couple of my firearms. The owner tells me that they may be producing .416 Rem pretty soon.......

Kudude: Where did you get the idea African nations REQUIRE properly headstamped brass??

I've taken a .416 Taylor to Zambia, SA, and Zimbabwe. All my brass is Winchester .458 resized to 40cal. In 21 trips to Africa, not one person has made a comment regarding my ammo.

Having brass that matches your rifle caliber probably is a good idea, but not required...yet.

I see very little reason for the .416 Chatfield/Taylor, it has never been a good option since the .416 Rem. came out..It is very easy to open the std. actions to .416 Rem.

all that may change with the 416 Ruger cartridge..I presently have a couple of .416 Rugers on a M-98 Mauser actions and it was a snap to make them feed. I have finished the metal work short of bluing, and will stock them before blueing unless someone buys one or both of them from me before stocking time rolls around.

quote:

So should I be at all concerned about all of the negative opinions out there about the 458 Win Mag?

The .458 WinMag had some teething problems, especially in tropical climates, because they were compressing the load more than is wise in order to try to get the velocities they advertised. With todays powders and bullet choices it does what it was supposed to and is quite versatile and you can load it like a .45-70 if you just want to plink.

As to Double-Tap. I bought some of their .375H&H because I needed more brass and it seems consistent and well made.

quote:

With todays powders and bullet choices it does what it was supposed to and is quite versatile

And then some. Take a look at Hornaday's manual, 2250fps with 500grainers and AA2230.

I have been very happy with 500's at 2135fps and especially North Forks at 2190fps. Neither load is any where near max, but they shoot well in my rifle and work very well on buff and elephants.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
And then some. Take a look at Hornaday's manual, 2250fps with 500grainers and AA2230.

Now you stepped in it!

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
And then some. Take a look at Hornaday's manual, 2250fps with 500grainers and AA2230.

Now you stepped in it!

Uh oh. Why did I step in it?

JPK

Go with neither and get a 458 Lott. You can always shoot the winny ammo out of it, or really jack it up for a good Sunday afternoon.

Of the two, I'd go with the 458 win. You can load it with 400 grain bullets and, depending on the respective loads, it wil only drop about an additional inch more than a 400 grained 416 at 300 yards (zeroed in at 100 yards). Essentially, you can get a 458 win and load it to shoot like a 416, or you can load it to shoot 510 grained bullets at 2,050 fps. It really is one of the more versatile cals with regards to hadloading. Get the Lott, and you'll have even greater options.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
500 grainers work just fine in the 458 at an easy 2150fps and often you can go better than 2200 if your rifle has the barrel. 2150 is more than enough for any game, plenty for elephant.

But then, 450 grain North Forks make the 458 shine!!! For anything!!!

If elephants are on your wish list, go for the 458.

If they aren't, either will work great. Unknown to those that hate the 458, it will shoot near as flat as any 416 Rem, Taylor or Rigby (the Rigby loaded to Rem speeds) And 458 ammo is ubiquitious.

JPK

Michael, Welcome to AR!

JPK sums it up perfectly. I've owned 4 rifles in .458 Win Mag over the past 48 years and dealt with big numbers of elephant plus a lot of other DG. Get the 500gr bullet moving at 2150fps and you will be amazed at the effects on these animals. It's a killer, I promise! I'm a little guy and have no problem with recoil of this cartridge.

Good Hunting,
Richard.
Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant.

So there you go. 50% Taylor and 50% 458. What's
the point in asking?

The 458 will have more terminal momentum than the Taylor (greater KO) but all else being equal you can make a Taylor lighter and with more in the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
All that may change with the 416 Ruger cartridge...

I reckon Ray's advice may just be spot on! The 416Ruger when/if announced/released may just be the death bell for the 416Taylor and the 416AR. Standard length actions taking a 416cal with nil modifications, easily available brass and dies ... got to like what the 416Ruger will bring to the table.
The "strength" of the 45cals is you'll always be able to get your hands on cheaper projectiles for "plinking" and "play".
I'd have either ... but like the 458WinMag a bit more.
Cheers...
Con

It sounds like the 458 is the way to go, the more we discuss it. At least if/until the 416 Ruger comes out. I guess I'll just have to spend some time behind the 458 to prepare.....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
So there you go. 50% Taylor and 50% 458. What's
the point in asking?

The 458 will have more terminal momentum than the Taylor (greater KO) but all else being equal you can make a Taylor lighter and with more in the magazine.

Will,

How do you figure regarding weight? Recoil? (meaning that you can tolerate a lighter 416 Taylor/)

How do you figure more magazine capacity since they are on the same case, the only difference being up front?

BTW, I figure Richard Harland's vote is worth any fifty or a hundred of the rest of us. And I'd feel that way if his well tested opinion were different than my not so well tested opinion.

JPK

Richard Harland,

Thanks for seconding my opinion and experience (little compared to yours.) It can be lonely advocating the 458wm amongst the 416 and Lott fans around here!

Reading of your success and Ron Thomson's success with the 458wm in your respective books bolstered my flagging confidence in the 458wm prior to my first elephant. The flagging confidence was only the result of reading too much AR gospel about the mythical failure of the 458wm and the AR gospel regarding the mythical power of the extra +/-100fps from the Lott.

I an a huge fan and I hope to have the opportunity to meet you, perhaps in Zim this coming May. Very sorry to hear of the loss of your family farm. I wish you the best,

JPK

IMHO the 416 ruger will be the best factory big (medium realy) bore to come out since the 404 Jeffey

Do you need over 2300 fps with 400 grainers for hunting?

If you need more than the taylor does not the 500 nitro/500A2 make more sense?

Is not the issue is d.g. hunter vs stopper?
Is the max loaded 458 Win Mag a stopper?

Boom Stick,

Reread Richard Harland's post. He has more experience with elephants than all other AR members added together and multiplied by 50. Even a midlin' loaded 458wm is a stopper, and with powders available in the US, 2150fps is a midlin' load.

In decades past, the 450NE's were considered stoppers. Nothing has changed there. Nominal ballistics = 480gr solid at 2150fps(3 1/4") or 2175fps(No. 2). Actual field performance about 50-100fps short of nominal. The 458wm's 500gr solids at a real 2150fps put it a touch above the old stopper's performance.

Edited to add that I see no good reason to hunt elephants with anything less than a stopper, especially since the 458wm makes that grade.

JPK

A stopper is where you place the bullet and for a newbie does not a lighter recoiling better shot a better stopper make?

OK OK OK the 458 win mag is a stopper in the right hands...

John Pondoro Taylor liked the 450/400 for the size and weight and the 416 taylor is its bolt twin

http://www.african-hunter.com/450_400_nitro_express.htm

everyone go have some scotch!!!

hmmm 16 year Lagavulin....yuuuuuuuuum!