quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A stopper is where you place the bullet and for a newbie does not a lighter recoiling better shot a better stopper make?

OK OK OK the 458 win mag is a stopper in the right hands...

John Pondoro Taylor liked the 450/400 for the size and weight and the 416 taylor is its bolt twin

No, you really have it backwards, a stopper is not required when the shot is perfect. A stopper is required when the shot isn't or can't be perfect. And a stopper will work - some or most of the time? - when the shot isn't perfect, but is close.

And its bunk that Pondoro Taylor preferred the 450/400; he used the 450NE No2 the most, followed by the 465H&H. Most 450/400's are overweight for the cartridge and weigh the same as a 450NE, or even more, so weight savings just isn't an issue. Personally, I can't see humping a rifle that weighs the same but delivers a class down in performance.

And the 416 Taylor beats the performance of the 450/400's by a good 150-200fps. The original 404 loading was developed to mimick the performance of the 450/400, though uses a .423" bullet instead of .408" or .411" as the 450/400's do.

JPK

Thank you for those corrections

yes I am aware the taylor can be loaded higher but the light and better handling and similar bullet dia was the implied similarities but I could have worded it better.

If you were in L.A. I would poor you a glass of this yummy scotch

P.S. JPK with the 400 nitro comming to life again in a similar weight gun as the 9,3x74 I think that would be the favorite of J.P. Taylor today able to do 400@ 2150 with modern powders and use 9,3x74 brass for cheap but good brass.

JPK,

Seems everyone of late has come full circle on the 458 WM, from shit to shine. As loaded with 500 gr. bullets @ ~2150 fps it is no different than the 450's NE rounds, which were good enough, usually.

Not to speak for Harland or Thomson, but they used the 458's because that was what was available, not because it was considered a miracle cartridge, just a hopeful substitute for the 450 class NE rounds.

And you have to get close with any round regardless. When the PH starts slapping you on the back about a great shot it doesn't necessarily mean anything, because a 458 or a 416 can knock an elephant down that isn't dead. How many videos have you seen where the elephant dropped like a sack of potatoes, proclaimed dead, great shot, etc., by the PH but was subsequently decided "it needs another for a finisher?"

5000 ft-lbs is about what is needed as both the 458 and 416's deliver. Taylor (and most others)knew that before anyone here was born. And a lot of pros used both.

I give the edge to the 458 because of KO value but a magazine will not hold as many rounds, all else being equal, because of the larger bullet diameter of the 458. Of course if the magazine holds 4 rounds of each, it matters little but in general, they are different. Try it sometime.

I've made two flyweight 416 Taylor's, making a third, and in the process of building a flyweight 458. Due to the difference in barrel diameters with the same wall thicknesses, the weight of the 458 will weigh more by definition but may not be more than a few ounces, if that. I didn't do the calculation. We'll see.

And the 458 will recoil more than the 416, again all else being equal.

But I doubt that most would notice the difference between the two on game, as most hunters don't get the opportunity to shoot "free" elephants anymore, enough to establish a statistically significant data base.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JPK,

Seems everyone of late has come full circle on the 458 WM, from shit to shine. As loaded with 500 gr. bullets @ ~2150 fps it is no different than the 450's NE rounds, which were good enough, usually.

Will
The gent posing the question has a tight budget, which is the only reason *I* suggested the 458 winmag. Please don't speak for everyone.

The taylor kicks less, has a better reach, and due to recoil, most people can shoot it better than just about any other bigbore, if you try for 400gr at 2350..

the 458 winmag is the "best" bigbore for a budget, period.

but it doesn't mean folk have come around to it... like a stripper in alaska...

You are correct. I hate it when a liberal says "everyone" when it isn't true. If you pay attention, it is a ceratin sign as soon as you hear them say such words as "We ... , all ... , everyone .... ".

How about "many have come around?"

Cool... that dog will hunt!

I think the .458 with a proper handload is a very capable caliber, but it still has a compaction problem with any powder according to the loading manuals I have around here..I loaded mine to 2050 FPS and it worked fine on everything..

But I suppose the bottom line with me is to punch it out to a 458 Lott and load the Lott down to 2200 FPS. That is the best option IMO.
Why not? you can do that with a fingernail file and 30 minutes time! Well almost!

quote:

But I suppose the bottom line with me is to punch it out to a 458 Lott and load the Lott down to 2200 FPS. That is the best option IMO.

That's what I do and it makes me plenty happy.

Ahh, 'tis a pleasure to hear a topic thrown up round the campfire and sit back with a cold one watching the shadows flicker on the walls of the boma as the same old friends chew it over. I can smell the gemsbok steaks on the mopane coals ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I can smell the gemsbok steaks on the mopane coals ...

Nobody remembered to shoot a couple franklins for variety?

I have plucked the francolins and have them spitted.

boom stick,
Searcy double in 400/.395 NE?
He can make it to handle 400-grainers at 2150 fps from a 27" barrel, and keep it light. Just to stay under 9 pounds would be a joy to carry in a double. 7.5 pounds for a Ruger No. 1.

Hard cast lead will not require cooperation of a bullet maker.
When we get the 340-grain FN's, a new Mighty Mite Nitro Express is born.

Now back to the campfire discussion of .416 Taylor versus .458WinMag:

Either one will do for me. Rifles of same barrel length and overall weight within a few ounces of each other.
Horse shoes and hand grenades:
.416/400-grainer @2350 fps
.458/450-grainer @2300 fps

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I have plucked the francolins and have them spitted.

Might not know how to spell but I know how to eat them.

Boom Stick,

Wish I were within reach of that scotch!!

And yes an 8 1/2lbs to 9lbs 450/400 would be an attractive option.

Will built his 416 Taylor to this weight, 8lbs or there about, if not lighter. That, to me is excessively light and the videos of Will shooting his 416 Taylor bear this out. Take those fps off and you are looking at a handy rifle.

Best,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JPK,

Seems everyone of late has come full circle on the 458 WM, from shit to shine. As loaded with 500 gr. bullets @ ~2150 fps it is no different than the 450's NE rounds, which were good enough, usually.

Not to speak for Harland or Thomson, but they used the 458's because that was what was available, not because it was considered a miracle cartridge, just a hopeful substitute for the 450 class NE rounds.

And you have to get close with any round regardless. When the PH starts slapping you on the back about a great shot it doesn't necessarily mean anything, because a 458 or a 416 can knock an elephant down that isn't dead. How many videos have you seen where the elephant dropped like a sack of potatoes, proclaimed dead, great shot, etc., by the PH but was subsequently decided "it needs another for a finisher?"

5000 ft-lbs is about what is needed as both the 458 and 416's deliver. Taylor (and most others)knew that before anyone here was born. And a lot of pros used both.

I give the edge to the 458 because of KO value but a magazine will not hold as many rounds, all else being equal, because of the larger bullet diameter of the 458. Of course if the magazine holds 4 rounds of each, it matters little but in general, they are different. Try it sometime.

I've made two flyweight 416 Taylor's, making a third, and in the process of building a flyweight 458. Due to the difference in barrel diameters with the same wall thicknesses, the weight of the 458 will weigh more by definition but may not be more than a few ounces, if that. I didn't do the calculation. We'll see.

And the 458 will recoil more than the 416, again all else being equal.

But I doubt that most would notice the difference between the two on game, as most hunters don't get the opportunity to shoot "free" elephants anymore, enough to establish a statistically significant data base.

Will,

Thanks for the reply. Why does bullet diameter matter in capacity in a magazine fixed by the belt's diameter?

You have more experience with different cartridges on elephants than I do, but I have a damn hard time believing that 400grs can equal 500grs, or 450grs with .458"'s of diameter.

Energy is one thing, momentum another and bullet diameter isn't factored into either.

BTW, 500grs at 2150fps, chronographed, is a better than the 450NE's 480grs at the same or 100fps less velocity, period.

So far as Richard Harland or Ron Thomson, they both used big bore doubles and prefered the 458wm. But anyway, proven success leads to utter confidence. If the 458wm didn't work, both of these fellows would have known it, and pretty quickly. Both remain ardent supoporters of the 458wm today, witness Richard Harland's post.

Best,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
,,,. Why does bullet diameter matter in capacity in a magazine fixed by the belt's diameter?

JPK

you take three rounds
put two rubber bands around them
measure at base, shoulder, and neck..then add .030 to those

that is how you build your mag... the belt diameter is only one measurement

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
,,,. Why does bullet diameter matter in capacity in a magazine fixed by the belt's diameter?

JPK

you take three rounds
put two rubber bands around them
measure at base, shoulder, and neck..then add .030 to those

that is how you build your mag... the belt diameter is only one measurement

Jeffeoso,

Help me out, I'm still not getting it. If the belt is the max diameter, and the cartidges lie parrallel, how does bullet diameter decrease, or increase magazine capacity. From all I have seen, if a magazine will hold, say, four 338wm or 300wm it will hold four 458wm.

Thanks,

JPK

Ray,

You are wrong. The 458wm can be loaded beyond 2150fps without any compression issues. I've gone to 2190 with Woodleighs with no compression with either H 4198 or AA 2230.

Why bother with the Lott? Just more powder and recoil for the same performance you are trying to achieve.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ray,

You are wrong. The 458wm can be loaded beyond 2150fps without any compression issues. I've gone to 2190 with Woodleighs with no compression with either H 4198 or AA 2230.

Why bother with the Lott? Just more powder and recoil for the same performance you are trying to achieve.

JPK

Sir,
I salute your reloading techniques. now, imagine if you applied them to the larger lott case, home much faster STILL you would go....

seriously, anything you can do in the winmag, you can do MORE of in the lott... nothing beats cubic inches

And you can still use WinMag cases for the 45-70ish loads.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ray,

You are wrong. The 458wm can be loaded beyond 2150fps without any compression issues. I've gone to 2190 with Woodleighs with no compression with either H 4198 or AA 2230.

Why bother with the Lott? Just more powder and recoil for the same performance you are trying to achieve.

JPK

This says it all. Will those wanting a Lott please go and get one/more. Or a 505 Gibbs or something.

Jal,
if 40 fps is significant over 2150, just, please, how can another 110 fps be "nothing"?

but, i am always interested, what is the oal of those "super" 458s and has the person tried the same loading techniques on a lott, and what where their results?

then again, the lott at 2200 is 10-15% LESS pressure than a winmag factory loading...

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Richard Harland,

Thanks for seconding my opinion and experience (little compared to yours.) It can be lonely advocating the 458wm amongst the 416 and Lott fans around here!

Reading of your success and Ron Thomson's success with the 458wm in your respective books bolstered my flagging confidence in the 458wm prior to my first elephant. The flagging confidence was only the result of reading too much AR gospel about the mythical failure of the 458wm and the AR gospel regarding the mythical power of the extra +/-100fps from the Lott.

I an a huge fan and I hope to have the opportunity to meet you, perhaps in Zim this coming May. Very sorry to hear of the loss of your family farm. I wish you the best,

JPK

JPK, Thank you!

That most experienced elephant hunter of all time, by far, namely Paul Grobler (my mentor), used almost every calibre of the era, from .303 British to .600NE. The four rifles in .458 Win Mag that he used, all made by BSA in England (very much 'standard' grade weapons) never let him down in the course of shooting some thousands of rounds into elephants. That is not to say he did not have some dud cartridges back in the 1950's- '60s, he did, but that fiasco is well behind us now. He discarded his .460 Weatherby at one stage in his career and went back to the .458WM for elephant culling and other mass shooting requirements. (It's all in the book 'African Epic'). I still have the first BSA .458 that Paul owned 50 years ago!

Please let me know (on the PM facility) when and where you will be arriving for your safari, once you decide and maybe we can meet up.

I've just orderd a LimbSaver recoil pad (by Sims Vibration Laboratory) to replace the old, solid red rubber pad on one of my rifles. Any comments on these and their quality and effectiveness from folks who use them would be interesting. Thanks.

Richard.

Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu-The Art of Hunting the African Elephant. (Available from Rowland Ward Publications and Safari Press)

quote:

Originally posted by Harland:

Author of: The Hunting Imperative

I just read your book. Thanks for the nice read. I'm a bit jealous.

quote:

Nobody remembered to shoot a couple franklins for variety?

Isn't shooting Franklins what usually happens in Africa -- typically, whole herds at a time...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ray,

You are wrong. The 458wm can be loaded beyond 2150fps without any compression issues. I've gone to 2190 with Woodleighs with no compression with either H 4198 or AA 2230.

Why bother with the Lott? Just more powder and recoil for the same performance you are trying to achieve.

JPK

Sir,
I salute your reloading techniques. now, imagine if you applied them to the larger lott case, home much faster STILL you would go....

seriously, anything you can do in the winmag, you can do MORE of in the lott... nothing beats cubic inches

No one is going to argue that more velocity isn't available from a Lott, or that the same velocity can't be achieved with less pressure.

However, more than enough velocity is available at low enough pressure with (several) good solid bullets from a 458wm to make the cartridge preform better than the tried and true 450NE elephant stoppers.

Pass throughs on broadside body shots with Woodleighs are not infrequent and they are regular with North Forks. On side brain shots, they are expected with either bullet. If the elephant is close enough so that the upward angle is there, there is no recovering the North Forks on frontal brain shots since the bullet exits between the shoulder blades. Penetration well beyond 4' and sometimes 6' and more.

I have used my 458wm in the October heat of the Zambezi Valley with absolutely no pressure issues - and my 458wm is a double rifle, with its inherant lack of both lock-up stength and extraction leverage and torque as well as its ejection complexities as compared to a bolt. Pressure at more than adequate velocities is a non-issue. I've had my loads pressure tested and they are well below SAAMI max pressures.

Rather than waste the velocity and take the recoil for shooting a cartridge faster than is required for more than adequate penetration, the wiser move is to move up in bullet weight or bullet weight and diameter. I like my solids to exit when four or six feet or so makes an exit. But I don't need them to exit with too much left. Rather than 2250 or 2300 with a Lott and 500's and the recoil to go with it, I would move to a 476WR, with a 520gr solid or a 500NE with a 570gr solid.

For what its worth, I prefer 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2135fps, 10' from the muzzle and 450gr North Fork flat nose solids at 2190fps, 10' from the muzzle. This is because they both shoot to regulation in my double rifle at those velocities. But I have loaded faster and would with a single barrel rifle, as I mentioned earlier, my loads tested well below SAAMI max. My COL for the Woodleighs is under max and I crimp in the cannelure. The North Forks are slightly shorter (I have only loaded the old style, Mike has added more bands and I have not yet loaded the new style.) I crimped the old style three grooves further rearward than Mike suggest for starting with a bolt, but they still measured shorter than COL max and shorter than the Woodleighs and were way off the lands, about .25" off in my rifle, iirc.

With my hunting loads and with all loads that I have tried, you can hear the powder rattle when you shake a loaded round. No drop tubes, only tapping the charged case on the table before seating the bullet.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

quote:

Nobody remembered to shoot a couple franklins for variety?

Isn't shooting Franklins what usually happens in Africa -- typically, whole herds at a time...

Yes, whole herds of Franklin get shot on Safaris to Africa!

JPK

Richard Harland,

quote:

Please let me know (on the PM facility) when and where you will be arriving for your safari, once you decide and maybe we can meet up.

Will do once plans are set. Thanks again and looking forward to meeting you. BTW, I almost joined Dan McCarthy to meet you for lunch last September, but had to catch my ride to Chewore where Rich Tabor and I had an appointment with some elephants. Hope you can understand my choice!

Best,

JPK

Harland,
You will be very happy with the Sims LimbSaver.
They are effective, durable, and look good on a rifle. Not quite Olde English, but the LimbSavers are as good as it gets in a recoil pad.

Hope you are settling into your new digs and adapting well to all the life-change units you have been smacked with lately. I'm sure you will do as well as humanly possible with the adversity, and eventually find the pony in all the horse crap.

TOM,

Thank you, I'm pleased you enjoyed the book - I enjoyed writing it! Most, I've enjoyed living the experiences.

JPK,

That's great! Hope you got your jumbo; Dan and I did not get the hunt. I like your loads you describe. BTW, I'll be in the market for any ammo you wish to leave after your next safari - it's very difficult to come by in Zim as I'm sure you know! Yes, I do have real money, so you do

Jeffeosso's comment about doing more with the Lott case is absolutely true, but NOT the point. Us .458WM users don't want, nor need, any more! (When I want more, I use my .505 Gibbs. I only use my .505 for fun or if I've lent the .458 to a client).

RIP,

Thanks for the comment on the Limbsaver recoil pad. It's going on my Flaig .458WM. We are doing fine and moving stuff right now to Harare. Thanks very much.

Richard.

Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant. (Available from Rowland Ward Publications and Safari Press)

JPK,
Sorry, a power outage cut me off mid-sentence! I was saying I do have real money so you do not need a spare gun case to carry Zim Dollars back home.
Richard.

Richard Harland,

I was to join Dan for that hunt. Perhaps it will come together in the future.

With Rich, we struck out on a suitable tusker, passing up a beautiful future trophy with very long but thin, white ivory, way back in the mountains adjacent to Mana Pools - Rich calls them hills, yeah, sure. Rich is 20 years younger than me; the wisdom of age, and my ankles, tells me that they were mountains.

Rich and I settled for several tuskless in lieu of the bull and had a great time. I joined Buzz Charlton in Chete and then in Omay for a number of additional elephants, and then Rich again at Humani for one more.

I will make sure to bring plenty of spare 458wm ammo when I come, and what I don't shoot is yours for the asking.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Jal,
if 40 fps is significant over 2150, just, please, how can another 110 fps be "nothing"?

but, i am always interested, what is the oal of those "super" 458s and has the person tried the same loading techniques on a lott, and what where their results?

then again, the lott at 2200 is 10-15% LESS pressure than a winmag factory loading...

jeffeosso, you've missed my point. I have nothing but good to say for the Lott. Most people would probably be better off buying a new Lott over a new Win.

My only beef is with people stating the Win cannot be what it NOW is, and any and all should be converted to the Lott.
Many of us WANT the Win cartridge as is.
The Lott IS bigger and better. (If you like that sort of thing.)

So should all carts be "improved" ?? Should all get bigger and better ??
Where will it all end ??

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Patterson:
Hi guys! Long time viewer, first time poster! Does anyone Have any experiance with the 416 Taylor? I'm building a custom mauser and can't decide between that and the 458 Win Mag. I realize the 458 would be better as far as ammo/brass availability. From what i read on this and other forums though, the 416 Taylor seems to be a real good, hard hitting cartridge. I plan on reloading for either caliber eventually, as i accumulate the proper equipment. Also this would be my first big bore rifle, would the 416 be better for a beginner like myself, due to the lighter bullets? I appreciate you reading this! Any help anyone could offer would be greatly valued!!

I've never owned either a 416 Taylor or a 458 WM but, this being the internet, I'm fully qualified to weigh in. From all your posts, it sounds like you want a custom big-bore but are on a budget. My take is this, (1) ignore all the posts that mention Africa or dangerous game, it's not in the cards for you right now and it's almost irrelevent at this point in time. (2) The only economical way to feed a big bore is by handloading. Factor in the cost of buying some reloading equipment when you're working up your budget. (3) It's expensive to build on a Mauser action; for your first big bore consider buying a used Ruger in 458 or rebarrel a Ruger 7 Mag or 338 to 416 Taylor. (4) If you want to blow up milk jugs and shoot logs get a 458 Win Mag and use cheap bullets. If you want to tinker with a wide range of loads and do some deer or hog hunting with a big bore get a 416 Taylor. (5) In most instances, recoil will be less with a 416 Taylor. (6) I usually would advise everyone that their first "big bore" should be a 375 H&H. Put a few hundred rounds down a 375 and you'll have a real good idea of what your next step should be. I think today, I'd advise someone to get a Ruger Hawkeye in 375 Ruger and do the same amount of shooting. That's another rifle and cartridge I've never owned but that won't stop me from weighing in...this is the internet after all.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

Where will it all end ??

.700NE Improved?

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

Where will it all end ??

.700NE Improved?

700 DA (jeffeosso)
700 Hubel Express

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Patterson:
Hi guys! Long time viewer, first time poster! Does anyone Have any experiance with the 416 Taylor? I'm building a custom mauser and can't decide between that and the 458 Win Mag. I realize the 458 would be better as far as ammo/brass availability. From what i read on this and other forums though, the 416 Taylor seems to be a real good, hard hitting cartridge. I plan on reloading for either caliber eventually, as i accumulate the proper equipment. Also this would be my first big bore rifle, would the 416 be better for a beginner like myself, due to the lighter bullets? I appreciate you reading this! Any help anyone could offer would be greatly valued!!

I find the 350 grain Barnes bullet in the 416 Taylor to have good numbers when driven to 2550 fps. I have an 8 pound rifle which is nice to carry. It has good sectional density and equals a 450 grain .458 Win Mag, without needing escessive amounts of compressed powder. I have a .458 Lott now as my biggest bore. It's a fine rifle and feeds well in the long CZ action, my primary reason for getting it. Since Winchester has pretty well abandoned the .458 Win Mag brass users, I've gotten Jamison properly headstamped .416 Taylor brass and never looked back. I have purchased one box of the Double Tap 400 grain Nosler Partitions, because I have boxes of 350 grain Barnes bullets with 75 grains of Reloader 15 already made up. I bought one box of the A Square 400 grain dead tough bullet too but have never fired any of them. Their manual states 75.0 grains of RL-15 is a maximum load with 400 grain bullets. I use one more grain in my 350 grain bullet loads. As to cheap bullets for practice, try Speer Mag Tip 350 grain bullets, they won't break the bank and do similarly to the premium bullets with CCI 250 primers.

Isn't .416Mag a bit much for first "big bore"? I hope there was at least .300Mag in your past.

...........YALL are keeping me up with all this talk . ..To Richard Harland , I very much enjoyed your article in the most recient BBJ that I,ve recieved.....On the Flaig 458...,,,I appreciate your comments here alot ...-------------------------To the original query ,,., I have had several of both calibers ,, Both have saved my life and both have filled my freezer .. .I don,t think you will go wrong with either...But have 2nd recoil lugs put under the barrel [I like about 6-8 " fwd of the reciever ring ] I feel quite strongly that it is MUCH more important getting the stockand rifle to fit you, personally and perfactly [sp]than which of the 2 calibers you choose..,., ., TRIGGERS,.,about 2 lbs will make hitting with your rifle off hand much easier and funner.[ and a big bore IS an off hand rifle ].....Express sights ,. set up so when you close your eyes and throw the rifle up and into the [ pocket ] and immediately open your eyes you have the bead in the bottom of the v and it is covering what you were looking @ befor you closed tyour eyes ,, with out haveing to do any extra muscle movement or tensing ....wether you natrally and habitually hold your head a bit erect or drop it down ...but to be correct the cheek should have supportive contact to your cheek .....If your rifle fits you it will be easy to hit your target ..and bullet placement is the important thing.......have fun ...... gumboot .

The wildcat 416 Taylor looks good on paper
The classic 458 WM works great in the field