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Lawndart: If cartridges loaded with ball powders deteriorate with time, what about ball powders in the original cans before they are loaded into cartridges? Do they have a shelf life (even though they don't, of course, get bounced around in a truck)? Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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All powders have a shelf life. Even those in original cans. Not sure what the life is, but 5-10 yrs might be about right (never had powder sit around that long.) If you get a spec sheet for your powder it should give you a shelf life. John | |||
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I have gotten up to twenty years out of powder, unopened, at 54 degrees, in an old refrigerator. So long as it has a nice ether type smell it is still good. As soon as you detect the faintest acrid smell, pour it on the rose bushes. Once I have loaded cartridges with ball powders, I try to shoot them up within three years, given decent storage conditions. I will go seven years with extruded single base powders. If I seal a cartridge case at the primer and the bullet, and seal the cartridges in a can with one of those little dessicant packets, I believe it will be good for a long time on a shelf in a cool temperature - long live root cellars. A can of cartridges in the root cellar should be good for twenty to thirty years. I am as guilty as anybody about grabbing a twenty year old box of commercial cartridges out of my closet and running out the door with the (correct, I hope) rifle to pop a deer that just walked on to the property. As a manufacturer, I will have to hew to the letter of the engineering and science. Reaching a certain level of knowledge about smokeless powders tends to bum one out for a few days...  | |||
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I'll have to get the rifle out of the safe and measure it. It is original length. My old .300 H&H M 70 definitely has a 26" barrel. I was "thinking" the .458 was longer than 24"??? I will measure. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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From actual experimentation. Ball powders under comprssion begin to 'change' after 5-10 years. Stick powder should be good inside a loaded round for at least 30 years - more like 100 if stored in sealed containers like much of the WWII and Vietnam era stuff was. The enemy of uncompressed ball and any stick or flake powders are changes in humidity. I have some 1890's vintage 303 MkV (dropped from production in 1899) that still goes bang every time I pull the trigger, velocity is about right 1920fps from my carbine- advertised as 1050fps from a 30" barrel. Not bad considering 'storage' has been in an opened ammo box in the shed since at least 1920! | |||
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Playing the devils advocate...if you load powder into a case and don't compress it and that case never leaves a controlled environment...what is the difference from sitting in the container??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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It all comes down to how well sealed the actual powder is. Unless each case is well sealed unto itself, or is stored in a well sealed container, the powder will start to equilabrate(SP?) with the surrounding environment. Please read the section in the new Norma manual about powder; it covers manufacturing, handling, chemical and physical qulities at the time of manufacture, AND how moisture, temperature and other variables affect burning rate over time. There are specific time curves for all Norma powders except URP. Since Alliant rifle powders (except RL-17) come from Bofors/Nexplo as well, the curves are close to what you can expect from RL-7,10,12,15,19,22 and 25. Smokeless powder can be a very dynamic substance. Fortunately it is not as unstable or as explosive as women (Thank you God). | |||
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Wouldn't a crimped case be considered well sealed??? Compression type brass water pipe fittings are crimped brass around copper??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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1. No. Molecules in the gaseous state (H2O, N2, O2, etc.) will equilabrate inside and outside of the cartridge. It may take a while, but it will happen. 2. Compression fittings on copper pipe usually have a silastic or rubber ring that is compressed. That acts like the sealing ring around the top of an ammunition can. Also H2O in the liquid state aggregates into entities much larger than single gas state molecules. The "tension " forces holding the molecules together are fairly strong, if I recall second semester physics and first semester chemistry (1977, OMG). 3. A reasonable compromise would be to store your loaded ammunition in military ammo cans (with a good seal intact). Put in a small hydroscopic pouch to absorb any water present. Keep the can in a 70 degree +/- closet. Then grab what you need for hunting or a range session, and worry not at all. 4. I get wrapped around the axle because I plan to be selling loaded ammunition that will go into storage conditions that I have no control over (i.e. loose rounds rattling around on the bakkie dash at 130 degrees in the afternoon and 60 degrees at night, not to mention going through wet and dry seasons). So, I am addmittedly paranoid. 5. For peace of mind you could run a line of Makron, or George and Roy's sealant around your primer and the bullet/case junction. I did that when I lived in Alaska, especially with shot shells containing Brenneke slugs while rowing fishermen down streams near the coast during salmon runs  . | |||
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Actually, they don't. Brass and copper make a very tight seal! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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RL-7, 19 and 22 are VERY susceptible to temp. change! I've used enough to know.  OTOH, H335 is VERY temp. stable based on my experience in the .458WM, and Hornady recommends it for that reason (and others). I don't know who makes AA2230. Does anyone reading, or responding, on this thread know? The ONLY ball power manufacturing facility in the U.S. is in St. Marks, Florida. Owned originally by Winchester, then Olin, changed hands another 4 or 5 times, now owned by General Dynamics. They produce several brand-name powders at that facility. To add a bit more interest and flavor to this discussion about the longevity of powder: Perhaps about ten years ago, my gunsmith (a world-class one) gave me an eight lb canister of unnamed powder - the can was blank, it had nothing on it, just a screw-on cap, about 2" dia. for the top. He said I could use it in my 45-70s. Someone had given it to him. He said it was a Winchester product with a burning rate similar to RL-7. The plain can look rather old, but I took it home anyway. At home I opened it and smelled it. It had a bit of an ether smell so I thought: "Sometime I'll give it a try but will be cautious about it". It was sitting in my office, in a secluded area without much heat and little humidity. A few years went by without touching it until just over 2 years ago when I renovated my office. I picked up the can and to my absolute horror grains of powder began pouring out the bottom! And worse still, there was a very discolored 2-inch wide circular band of carpet, the diameter of the can... PLUS a hole 3-inches in diameter of missing carpet in the center! The powder had eaten through the can AND the carpet, and I was staring at a 3" circle of bare wood! I had a repair job on my hands, and the powder got "flushed". I'm hoping the plumbing holds!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Flare type gas fittings are also copper compressed to brass. They are safe to keep LP and Natural Gas from leaking into you house...NO rubber. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Western Powders sells it. Accurate powders were made in Israel...don't know if they still are. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Yes, I'm aware that Western Powders now own Accurate Powders, but my question still is: Who makes it? My source for the info on the St Marks plant is Hodgdon, who market Winchester powders as well as their own brand (their ball powders are made at St Marks and many of their extruded powders are made in Australia) and IMR, which are made in Quebec, Canada. Thanks for your response, nonetheless. Should add: my source at Hodgdon didn't know either. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Well, that shows how little I know. Is there a convex in cross section ring of brass involved in the joint? Is the joint cinched down with a threaded piece, or just squeezed down with a collet device? I am very curious now... When I plumbed this clinic (everything is still water tight) I prepped and soldered all the copper to copper joints (MAPP gas works really well). It has been ten years now, but I dimly remember flaring some copper pipe and using a compression fitting, but I used a screw on assembly to cinch everything together. I realize you are talking about gas and smaller diameter copper pipe. The next time I get into Nampa, I will stop off at Grover's electrical, plumbing and gas, and have them show me how the joint works. I am scratching my head and drooling on my tennis shoes. Could you PM me a snail mail address? I will send you some chapters from the powder company engineers. It would be good to reconcile the different joint methods. .458 Only, I believe, but do not know for sure that AA gets their 2230 from the Czech Republic. I will see if I can find out. | |||
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There are 3 common types for metal to metal "compressed" fitting which are water and gas tight. Flare Type: Where the end of the copper is flared and married to a brass nipple with a threaded collar. Compression Type: Which uses a ferrule around the end of the copper pipe and a threaded collar to swage it into the copper and marry it up to a brass nipple. Plain ole Union: which just uses two pieces of any type of metal machined to interdigitate perfectly. If steel or iron, one side will be brazed with brass before machining to make a better seal. Again, held together with a threaded collar. So yes...all held by threaded collar but these fittings are under a lot of pressure too...not just atmospheric pressure and Boyle's law of gasses. I bet if someone tested...one would find that pure copper or lead bullets crimped with a Lee FCD formed a pretty tight seal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I thought that Accurate Arms was originally in Israel??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I have a older can of AA3100 that says, made in Isreal on it. I guess you can them a call and ask them? | |||
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Used to be Israel. Nowadays, it seems the powder marketing companies (Such as Accurate) get various powders from various plants around the world. Former Warsaw Pact plants in central and eastern Europe; the old Olin plant in St. Marks, Florida; the former DuPont/IMR plant in Ontario, Canada; VV in Finland; Nitro Chimie in Switzerland; the Ball powder plant in Belgium that supplies the Western Powder Company; ADI in Australia; there is a plant in Scotland (remember the Scots powders), Bofors/Nexplo in Sweden; yada diyada di... | |||
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Hi I am new to the best outdoor forum on the net!! Must say I have no problem reaching 2160 f/s from my 25 inch CZ 550 Win Mag with 500gr bullets. 72gr. Somchem S321 in Winchester case,with no compaction of powder. Just don't use PMP cases for bullets heavier than 450 gr. They hold 5.gr. less powder because of thicker walls. All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!! | |||
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Welcome to the AR forum Mafunyane. We always heartily receive input from S.A. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Again...can somebody (Like Don Heath) tell me why ball powder will dteriorate faster when loaded in a case (case crimped, powder not compressed, and cartridge stored in climate controlled environment) than in a container? | |||
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Thanks for the welcome .458 Only Really like your forum name.  All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!! | |||
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Read the chapters at the beginning of the Norma manual. The whole deal is well explained there. Don works for Norma. | |||
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ledvm In Brief...oxygen and water are a powders enemies. How quickly does a particular powder absorb these? As to how airtight a case is...next time you load some, turn a few over immediately after seating the bullet and 'seal' the primer in with nail varnish..little bubbles will tell you that compressed air is escaping..it usually takes several hours for this to stop. If air can go out, it can go in  The correct way to get a very long life out of your ammo is to a) seal the primers long before you put the powder in. b) Drop the powder in, in an oxygen reduced, controlled humidy condition. c) seal the bullet in as you seat it. d) vacum pack the ammo. | |||
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Compressed charges. I worried about them for a while. Seems the chief concern is that the compressed powder pushes the bullet out of the case. A good crimp solves this. Record the OAL or crimp on a cannelure and then watch for the bullet slipping out of the brass. | |||
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Your wish is my command. | |||
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JPK, My unaltered Win M 70 .458 WM has a 25" barrel. Knew it was longer than 24". Don Heath, Thank you for the reply. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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What do you think of a swage die to make 458 softs a "Bore rider" and able to single load to 458 Lott length? Also making a solid bore rider with a canalure that uses 458 Lott oal and 458 Win crimp position? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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IIRC North Fork solids are bore riders. They are considering making 458 and 470 soft nosed bullets bore riders as well. This is for Nitro Express cartridge consideration, but you may be able to benefit from that as well. | |||
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Boom Stick...depending on the throat of your rifle you can seat the bullets way out anyway. The CZ rifles typically have such long throats that using Barnes Banded or TSX you can crimp the bullets in the third groove and have rounds nearly the same length as the Lott. Quite a common practice in Africa where CZ are the most common make of big bore rifle and bullets like GS custom, Dzombo and Stewart are available with appropriate crimping grooves. A poor mans Lott. 2300fps with S321 is no problem either. | |||
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Don, You know that unless a rifle's barrel is marked with official LOTT seal of approval that it is marginal at best over here in the USA. Am assuming you made it home OK and hope you are not freezing. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I am glad no one told that to a few African elephants that I met in November! 465H&H | |||
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I get 2100+ fps with 500 gr Woodleigh Weldcores using 63 grains of 4198 Extreme in my (old) Steyr Model S. Cloverleafs at 50 yards; slightly larger groups with solids. | |||
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My last PH gave me a Win mag load on a 400 gr. A Frame of 80 grs./2230. I tried it. I got 2530 average at about twelve feet from my 22" barrel, and one flat primer. The other four looked okay. The recoil calculator showed 66.8 lbs on an 8.5 lb. rifle. Felt more like 80. Very sharp recoil. Think I'm going to load 78.5 the next time. After five rounds off the bench, I quit. But, I'm a skinny old fart... It would make one hell of a whitetail round, though... | |||
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