458 only,

Let me ask a question, can the 458WM reloading dies be used for the 458Lott?

Which is your manual?

The origional question implied both reloading and factory loads. (or maybe he means only factory loads) I will go out on a limb and suggest 2200 fps mv ideal for 458 500gr bullets.

It seems from this and other threads, this can be achieved today by carefully handloading the 458WM. I do have the Barnes No4, I see that max load.

I believe the factory 458WM ammo is measuring under 2100 for most gun & ammo combinations. With some reported well under. I think (poor memory) most of the factory Lott data,(reported on AR) is over 2200fps.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
458 only,

Let me ask a question, can the 458WM reloading dies be used for the 458Lott?

Which is your manual?

The origional question implied both reloading and factory loads. (or maybe he means only factory loads) I will go out on a limb and suggest 2200 fps mv ideal for 458 500gr bullets.

It seems from this and other threads, this can be achieved today by carefully handloading the 458WM. I do have the Barnes No4, I see that max load.

I believe the factory 458WM ammo is measuring under 2100 for most gun & ammo combinations. With some reported well under. I think (poor memory) most of the factory Lott data,(reported on AR) is over 2200fps.

If it (458WM dies)was what I had, yes. Though it would amount to slightly less than full-length resizing... which is not a big problem. The decapping pin would have to be adjusted to knock out the primer from the Lott. Seating and crimping would amount to adjusting the die.

I have several manuals:2 Lyman, 2 Accurate Arms, 2 Barnes, 2 Speer, 2 Hornady, Hodgdon and NRA. All have data for the 458WM. Where 2 are mentioned it includes an older edition as well as the latest. Hornady and Barnes have data on the Lott. I have others besides these, but not relevant to the 458WM. Example: Sierra and Nosler.

A few manuals, plus AA website, show that, yes, 2200 fps from a 500 is possible within specs. I normally attain that with several powders (NOT AA2230, because I've yet to get some - on order though)in my CZ whether at 3.34 or near Lott dimensions.

According to my computer program, pressure is right at 60,000 psi from a 25". Of course, there are variables. But, I'd feel completely safe firing my loads in Africa on DG.

I really don't know much about factory stuff other than what I've read as I've yet to fire a single round of anything factory. From some data on this web site, it would appear that anything from 2050 fps to 2160 fps has been mentioned from factory fodder 500s. I did mention, however, a report from the late Finn Aagaard in which he got 2188 fps from Federal 500s in his custom 23". In four others he received an average of about 2130 fps. The problem, as he saw it, was the excessively long freebore. His had a minimal .13" (1/8") with the 500 Hor seated and crimped.

Best regards,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Thanks Bob,

I misread you post 2nd up and though you wrote one of the manuals. My bad.

One neat thing about the Lott and WM is that they are so similar, its seems pretty easy to own and feed both. I have seen some WM ammo cheaper than any of the Lotts. I also been seeing quite a few used 458WM rifles around $500 which is a lot of bank for the buck. Same with dies, seeing used 458WM for short money on the discount tables.

fourbore,

Yes, I've written a manual on the 458 Win Mag. I've also published it. Right now it's being updated. But, no, I've not written anything in the manuals mentioned, but perhaps influenced some things? Hard to tell for sure, but I've had personal telephone conversations with some top brass at Speer, Hornady, Barnes, Accurate Arms and Hodgdon. And I'm not referring to the typical guy you get when you dial their toll-free numbers and ask to talk to a "ballistician". I'll leave it there. But I did notice that Barnes upgraded their BC on the 350TSX .458" after I talked with them about it and shared my TESTED results! And a number of "eyes" have seen my work BEFORE publication. And it's not a rehash of what others have written, or said, except Phil Shoemaker gets mentioned a couple times

I wrote one on the 45-70 and published it in 1997. It too has had an annual update. I usually do those things during the winter months. There are two or three other publications as well. The 458WM is the latest.First published in 2008.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458 only,

Is your 458Win book available for purchase?

Ian,

Yes. But I'm out right now. Have to do a run when update is complete.

I'll put you on the list if you like.

Bob

www.bigbore.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Ian,

Yes. But I'm out right now. Have to do a run when update is complete.

I'll put you on the list if you like.

Bob

www.bigbore.ca

Bob,

Please do. Would love a copy!

Thanks

Hi all,

Thanks for all the info.

Let me explain that I am not a reloader and do not own a .458 win mag, but I am thinking of buying something in that class. If ammo for the Lott was available here I would buy one, but unfortunatley it is not. So I was thinking of the win mag. My question was about factory ammo. Have modern powders made the win mag what it was designed to be (from what i understand replecating .470 ballistics in a standard lenght action).

From what i have read on this thread most people hand load their win mags. So does that mean that factory ammo still does not perform as it should.

I do own a Schuler .375H&H and have read a number of atricles that this will penerate more than the win mag.

Forgive me if I may sound ignorent but I am new to this game

holzer,

No apologies from you! Asking questions is the best way to learn. Otherwise you're just a spectator. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

As to 458WM factory loadings. Depending on what is available in you locale, I'd say you'd be fine using the factory loads. Manufacturers loads vary, as do loads vary from rifle to rifle. Best bet is to do some load testing with available ammo. I know it's expensive, but if your life is dependent upon it, it's a small price to pay. Personally I'd say anything that pushed that 500gr. bullet to at least 2050fps is probably adequate. More velocity would be better, buy may not be necessary. Others here may have a different opinion. Mine is formed from reading and listening, no real world experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

The obvious constraints of the supplies you're limited to will have to determine your choice. If components are available there, I would strongly suggest you start handloading if at all possible. You'll get better quality ammo, IMHO, and you'll KNOW what you're staking your life on.

David

Another choice is the 416 Rigby, if that ammo is available. it has a great reputation for deep penetration and better bullet reliability than the 375HH and good knock down effect.

Those who try and use it all praise the performance, out of proportion to what they expected.

I believe, this is a very practical, effective choice and a true step up from the 375 class gun.

fourbore makes a good point. A 400 at 2400 ain't nothing to sneeze at. Not as much frontal area, but lots of enerby and great penetration. Once again, another great reason to handload. Rigby ammo is fairly expensive unless you have access to Hornady stuff. But handloading is no sweat. You can even load up a Woodleigh 450gr. at about 2350fps and have a great sectional density and reportedly deeper penetration. The Rigby is a low pressure round for sure.

Or, if you're looking at that big old action for a Rigby, you might as well do the 450 Rigby.

David

The 416 Rigby is a low pressure round primarly because the steel used in the rifles when it was introduced are no where as strong as those produced today.
Many folks believe the cartridges were loaded to the low pressure they were for functionality.
In the days when these older vintage cartridges were loaded at 40 KSI there was a reason. The steel used in the guns most likely had a ultimate strength of 80 KSI. It might also have something to do with projectiles of that era not being designed to withstand a higher impact.
It is generally accepted that in engineering of (engineered products; non organic) that the maximum working load on a vessel (dynamic or static) be 1/2 or less of the ultimate strength (failure mode).
It so happens 40 KSI is significantly lower than pressure required to "flow" brass which is what causes bolts to stick and primer pockets to expand.
The 416 Rigby in a modern bolt rifle can be reeved up quite a bit and still be well below pressures that may cause extraction issues.
It appears SAAMI tries to limit max pressures to about 63-66 KSI. That being the case, I would suspect modern bolt rifle manufacturers are required to make rifles that can withstand at least 2X those pressure levels (132 KSI +). That is a given standard and at that it is most likey a conservative number. Probably more like 2.2-2.3X to compensate for variations in lot to lot steel.
I do not believe you will find many of the older vintage cartridges loaded above their original designations due to the number of vintage guns out there that are no where as strong as todays rifles.
If you reload this cartridge to modern pressure just make sure you are NOT loading into some vintage Mauser action. Use a action made at least after WWII or you know the material makeup.

458 Only:
I too would be intersted in a copy of your manual for the 458 WM. If possible please include me on your notification list. Thanks in advance.

quote:

(NOT AA2230, because I've yet to get some - on order though)

No .458 Win Mag load data book is complete with out AA 2230 loadings listed. From my own testing (not an authority by any means) and that from prominent experts...it is definitely in the top three (if not the best) powders for hunting loads in the .458 Win Mag!

quote:

No .458 Win Mag load data book is complete with out AA 2230 loadings

I don't know of any .458 Win Mag data book that is complete, period! Only 2, of the dozen or so that I have that contains data on the .458 Win Mag, have loads for the .458WM based on AA2230. And they are NOT generally accepted by the members of this board. That's the current Hornady and an older Speer. The best source seems to be the Accurate Arms web site.

My manual isn't just about loads. It has seven parts, plus intro and conclusion. It does contain handloads, and they are all mine based on a CZ. The main focus, however, is using it for hunting in North America, even though there are loads suitable for any big game anywhere on Planet Earth.

(Have had to add: I have an older AA Manual which gives loads for the 458WM, but the pressures are in CUP. Easily translated into PSI, however.)

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I own the first edition of 458 Only's manual. There is more useful information there than any other written source I've seen about the .458 WM. I'm waiting for the second edition.

I have found most of the handloading info on the .458 in reloading manuals is skimpy or downright erroneous.

.458 Only turned me on to the trick of using bullets with multiple grooves (Barnes TSX, North Fork solids, etc.) and crimping on one of the other grooves. Since the CZ550 has a longer magazine and all .458s seem to have a lot of freebore, you can just about equal the Lott case capacity with a CZ550 in .458. With a Model 70, you can load the Barnes 350 out further than the normal groove, and I chronograph 2700 fps esily with that bullet. 2200 fps is easy with a 500 grain bullet in a Model 70, by the way.

I prefer 450 grain bullets at 2250 in my .458. First, flat nosed North Fork 450 grain solids penetrate deeper (experiments on dead elephants posted on AR claim 30% deeper) than 500 grain Kynoch-shaped solids. Second, that lets me have the same impact point as Barnes 450 grain TSX bullets for buffalo. Third, the felt recoil is considerably less.

As for buffalo, a buffalo only weighs 1/6 to 1/8 as much as a bull elephant and 450 grains in a tough expanding bullet seems plenty in this caliber, even for Texas heart shot follow-on shots.

I use AA2230 exclusively for 450 and 500 grain bullets. I experimented with H335 and others. H335 gives comparable results and H4895, often recommended, is not quite as good. My powder of choice for 350 grain bullets is H4198.

Incidentally a 350 grain bullet at 2700 fps gives 5700 foot pounds of muzzle energy. A 450 grain bullet at 2250 is just over 5000 foot pounds. It might be possible to load the 450s a little hotter, but why bother? I quit at 2250.

None at all.

quote:

.458 Only turned me on to the trick of using bullets with multiple grooves (Barnes TSX, North Fork solids, etc.) and crimping on one of the other grooves.

Very good advice as well as staying with 450 gr bullets.

A 24" drop tube is another good "trick-of-the-trade". With AA 2230 through a drop tube...case capacity is not even a consideration.

Another useful tool for working with the .458 Win Mag is the C-H brand cannelure tool. Once you have determined the best position for it, you can send samples off to Woodleigh for 500 bullets so cannelured.

It seems that with 500 grain cup and core bullets and 450 grain semi of full monometal bullets, getting 2,150 safely, and across a wide range of temperatures is doable without too many gyrations.

As allways, avoid ball/spherical powders. Small extruded are better, and a single base extruded is best. Right at 100% case capacity is a very good thing. The powder cannot shift around to shed its deterrent coatings, and you do not have many broken granules that will boost burning speed/pressures.

I would love to see an early .458 Win Mag cartridge opened and the congealed single lump off ball powder coaxed/pushed out.

.458 Win Mag - nicely doable.
.458 Lott - walking in tall cotton.

lawndart,

Why do you think ball powders should be avoided?

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
lawndart,

Why do you think ball powders should be avoided?

Excellent question, since 2230 is a spherical, double base powder and is considered to be among the top two or three Win mag powders.

Some of the older ball powders created lots of problems. Certain ball powders like W748 can vary widely in pressure vs ambient temps. Some of the older ball powders tended to clump. Haven't heard of any problems with 2230 though. Might be one of those old wives tails that have come to pass.

John

You should be able to use 458 WM dies to load the Lott...just pull the decapping rod and run the Lott case in while you adjust the die to get the sizing you want. You also have to adjust the seating die...the Lott is just over a quarter inch longer so you just have to experiment a bit to get there. I popped the primers using Lee decapping rods from Lee hammer style dies.

I use Lyman 45-70 dies to load 45-70, 45-90, 45-100 and 45-120 using various rings over the brass to adjust the amount of sizing and bullet seating....basically the same thing...using a shorter die to work a longer case.

I also used RCBS 458 WM to load 458 American, and used the 458 dies to initially load some 45-70 through 45-120 before I received the Lyman 45-70 Cowboy dies. You just have to do some fiddling...

I use 400-550 gr bullets, hard cast and jacketed, in my 458 SMLE at <45KCUP using AA2230 and AA2460 powders. The 45-90 is about the same length and powder capacity as the Lott and I throated my 458 SMLE so I can shoot, single loaded, a 3.25" long case at 3.75" COAL into the lands...still at <45KCUP.

I don't gain any velocity and it takes more powder just to equal the "normal" 458 WM velocity...just do it for fun and to cause a bit of consternation when I show it can be done...and/or/but there are always other issues to consider.

Do some experimentation...the 458 WM dies a quite a bit cheaper than the Lott dies as I recall.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Some of the older ball powders created lots of problems. Certain ball powders like W748 can vary widely in pressure vs ambient temps. Some of the older ball powders tended to clump. Haven't heard of any problems with 2230 though. Might be one of those old wives tails that have come to pass.

John

I'm waiting on some 2230 which should arrive soon. In the interim, I tried H335. Haven't chrono'd any loads yet, but they are pretty accurate. Hell of it is, I have a 22" barrel and with a max load of 335, this huge ball of flame bursts out of the muzzle. Looks like a 105 went off. I think the powder's a bit slow.

I've also had good results with IMR 4064, but that is a heavily compressed load if you got to max book.

I wouldn't use 748 under any circumstances. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the powder that originally gave the .458 Win a bad name it is still struggling to overcome.

I just got this rifle a few months ago. I absolutely love it. I may never get back to AFrica, but if I don't I'm going to keep it and shoot it just for fun.

Yesterday at the range, a couple of young guys were wowing over it. They were shooting an old sporterized M98. I offered them the opportunity to shoot the .458 and they jumped at it. I loaded them up with some max 335 loads behind 500 grain Hornady Intelocks and they let fly. Long story short, they wanted to buy one each just like it. Their smiles made my afternoon. Looks like I converted a couple of medium bore kids to big bores. Much fun!

BTW, 458only, I, too, will be interested in your manual when it arrives. Please drop me a PM and we'll do it.

thanks,
Fred

1. Please advise me of .458 Win Mag book availability.

Ball Powders
I am plagiarizing many sources, especially the most recent Norma reloading manual, and also recalling my own experiences from twenty-five years ago.
1. Ball powder loses its "potency" at a faster rate than extruded powders, about two to three times as fast. Cartridges loaded with it should be fired within two to three years, assuming good storage techniques.
2. Ball powders (with the exception of TAC) tend to be more temperature sensitive than extruded powders. (The least temperature sensitive powders of any type are those medium burning rate numbers that make you think, "hey, let us go load some .308 Win cartridges).
3. Extruded/stick powders can be compressed; there will still be air between many of the "sticks" to supporrt initial ignition. With any compression of ball/spherical powders you remove the air necessary for initial burning.
4. Ball powders should fill the case right to the bottom of the bullet, without compression. If there is any space for the powder to move about (bumping along on the dash of a bakkie/truck/Rover/Cruiser the deterrent coating will wear off of some, or many of the powder balls. That causes the burning rate to become very much faster.

There is nothing inherently wrong with ball powders. The ammunition companies like them because they are three to five times cheaper to produce than extruded powders in terms of man hours expended. Load density is critical, storage is critical, "shoot by" date is sooner, handling is critical. Do not bounce around on the floor of your vehicle. So long attention is paid to these issues, things will go well.

"Shoot by" date can be greatly extended if the cartridges are well sealed, and are then sealed in a can with a little dessicant pouch inside, and the can is then stored in a cool place.

Being a chemist in a former life is as much a curse as a blessing.

It sounds as if AA2230 is the best ball powder ever developed for this application.

I am curious about "Xterminator" from Belgium by way of Western Powders/Ramshot.

What do you all think overall about RL-7?

Thank you.

Some of the older ball powders are single based powders (Win 760 ). Some of the newer are double based like extruded powders (2230). This may lend to the temp stability of the more recent offerings.

quote:

What do you all think overall about RL-7?

So far, it's proving to be okay behind 400 grain A Frames. 1" accuracy at fifty yds using 67.5 grains behind a 400 A Frame, with an average velocity of 2312 on a five round string out of my 22" barrel. That's with open sights. Have yet to try three hotter loads. ES was 35; SD 14. Could be better. Will do it this week.

quote:

Some of the older ball powders are single based powders (Win 760 ). Some of the newer are double based like extruded powders (2230). This may lend to the temp stability of the more recent offerings.

Double base means nitroglycerin is also present, nitroglycerin is less stable than nitrocellulose. That really is not a big deal; all of the RL/Norma/Nexplo-Bofors powders are double base. You bring up a really good point about stability. In recent years the deterrent coatings and stabilizers have improved by a couple orders of magnitude. The militaries of the world drove that work, so that is one benefit of defense budgets .

The problem is more one of the physical characteristics of ball/spherical powder. I think the best solutions will come from making allowances for those physical properties.

Did I say I am really looking forward to 458 Only's book?

I use and advocate AA2230, it has proven temp isensative both in use in Africa and here at home over the chrono, which doesn't lie.

As far as previous problems with ball powders in the 458wm, all of the problems seem to have been with older ammo stored for years in hot warehouses in Africa. (And don't forget the tens of thousands of elephants successfully culled with Winchester factory ammo as a counter to the relatively few substantiated cases of problems!) To be (overly?) safe, I load fresh ammo intended for use on DG before each trip and shoot up any leftovers from previous trips in practice.

JPK

JPK,

What is the oldest AA 2230 hand-load that you have chronoed?

Loaded a batch for an ele hunt in set for 08 then was unable to go (business problems).

May go this year I am gonna randomly chrono a few to see what I have.

They are 450 gr NF FPS's over 72 gr of AA 2230 in new Winchester cases with Fed 215 M primers.

What do you think???

quote:

I use and advocate AA2230, it has proven temp isensative both in use in Africa and here at home over the chrono, which doesn't lie.

JPK, that is good news indeed.

quote:

I load fresh ammo intended for use on DG before each trip and shoot up any left overs from previous trips in practice.

The best news of all .

J.Lane,

You could use your left over cartridges on any large stock that you have to put down.

May I use your recipe? I will provide attribution.

My main hope is to get people to think of loaded cartridges as dynamic entities that are "born", do good work and then gradually decline over time. I was introduced to this concept when I found a handful of .257 Roberts Ackley Improved cartridges under the passenger seat of my Toyota P/U (may she rest in peace). They had been bounced around for almost ten years. Thinking nothing of it, I started to shoot them up for practice - KA-BOOM!.

The rest had their bullets pulled, and the powder dumped out. Many of the granules were cream colored where the deterent coating had rubbed off.

Now I be paranoid.

LD

PS Everyone should read the chapters on powders in the latest Norma manual. They are written by an engineer from Bofors/Nexplo. Illuminating, and eye opening at the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

quote:

I use and advocate AA2230, it has proven temp isensative both in use in Africa and here at home over the chrono, which doesn't lie.

JPK, that is good news indeed.

quote:

I load fresh ammo intended for use on DG before each trip and shoot up any left overs from previous trips in practice.

The best news of all .

J.Lane,

You could use your left over cartridges on any large stock that you have to put down.

May I use your recipe? I will provide attribution.

My main hope is to get people to think of loaded cartridges as dynamic entities that are "born", do good work and then gradually decline over time. I was introduced to this concept when I found a handful of .257 Roberts Ackley Improved cartridges under the passenger seat of my Toyota P/U (may she rest in peace). They had been bounced around for almost ten years. Thinking nothing of it, I started to shoot them up for practice - KA-BOOM!.

The rest had their bullets pulled, and the powder dumped out. Many of the granules were cream colored where the deterent coating had rubbed off.
\.

Don't feel too bad, that also happens with factory loaded ammo. My rule is I take the ammo out once for a hunting trip, then shoot it up after the trip is over.

John

Some good info, lawndart. Thanks for posting. My 2230 made it today, so I'm gonna be playing around this week with some Hornady 500 Interlocks and some 450 A Frames. We'll see...

quote:

May I use your recipe? I will provide attribution.

You certainly may use the recipe.

For my 1956 Winchester Safari Grade Model 70, I load the following: In Winchester cases, Fed 215 or 215 M primers (I can't tell the diff in this cartridge), 72 gr of AA 2230 through a 24" drop tube, NF 450 gr Solids and softs, crimped into the 5th groove from the nose I think (will check on this for sure) with a Lee FCD.

One of them shoots 2" higher than the other and it is the opposite from what everyone guesses. As far as windage, exactly the same. They both chrono ~2250 fps.

With the NF FNS, that rifle has shot 3 or 4 1-hole 3-shot groups off a bench at 100 yards. The best I have shot with the softs is 1.5" but always less than 2".

Are far as credit to me...NFMike walked me through the development and JPK helped me pick the components and encouraged me to talk with NFMike. Very good load in "my rifle".

Ledvm,

With your 72 grain load and the 24" drop tube, I have to think that you have no compaction issues at all. Can you hear the powder rattle when you shake a cartridge close to your ear?

Since you are DG hunting, and in particular elephant hunting, if you can't hear the powder rattle, I would either shoot the loads up or pull the bullets, throw out the powder and reload the bullets over fresh powder.

Relatively little effort for a lot of piece of mind, eh? Unless you're doing a serial elephant hunt, with more than a handful of elephants on quota, you won't need to relaod but a box, maybe two max.

I use a touch more powder than you, Norma brass, and I can hear the powder rattle in my North Fork loads, but I load the bullet out further than you. I don't use a drop tube, but do tap full cases before seating the bullet.

I can't hear the powder rattle in my Woodleigh loads, seated to the cannelure.

Good to hear you are returning. To Chewore South I hope.

JPK

quote:

Can you hear the powder rattle when you shake a cartridge close to your ear?

I will rattle one tonight!

quote:

I use a touch more powder than you,

I just worked up until I got ~2250 fps and stopped. I did not want anymore. I could sure load more as I see NO high pressure signs at 72.

Interestingly, I get 2220fps with a half grain more powder and the Norma brass out of 26" barrels. (And the bullet seated out further.)

JPK

My rifle does have a 26" barrel I think.

I think you were right the first time at 24".

Seating the same bullet out like I do with the NF 450's drops pressure as it increases effective case capacity. And I'm seating the bullet quite a bit further out since OAL is irrelevant in my rifle and the long leade or throat or freebore of the 458wm chamber still leaves lots of room between bullet and lands.

Could also be differences in the brass or chambers or barrels compounding things too.

2220fps is plenty.

JPK