i am sure this has been discussed many many times before.

With modern powders(in factory ammo)does the above have problems with reaching advertised velocities, penetration etc.

Depends on who is doing the advertising. With modern powders and good reloading, you can reach 2150 fps with a 500 gr RN. This has been an effective DG combo for many people. Some will argue otherwise, but experience favors the arguement that the 458 gets it done.

John

Holzer...don't know which town you live in ...but if you are close to Harare pop out to cleveland range just about any Wednesday pm and speak to Garry or Paul (cannot miss garry...there are not that many men as tall in this world) or on a Saturday and speak to Charlie Haley or Ken Worsley. They will tell you exactly what con be done with Soyuth African powders in the .458.

The duplex load in the .458 using S265 and S335 is said to be the best...but until I can put it in some proper pressure equipment....I R nervous of duplex loads!

I'm having a 458Win built up right now.
I intend to use 480grn 458Win Woodleigh bullets with it.
An Aus chap who just used this combo in the Zambezi Valley says he comfortably archived a velocity of 2200fps, but Ill be happy to get 2150fps.

Ganyana - I am in Harare so will pop out sometime to talk to them. Thanks.

what about factory ammo, PMPs, Federals etc. Would anyone use them or prefer to reload

nothing wrong with 500gr at 2150 ... and with NEW loads, the winmag makes it ... some older loads are dubious, and are on record for being "somewhat" less than that.

the 458 lott, however, CAN do 2150, no problem (norma supressed loads excepted) and at alot lower pressure..

Its been my constant position that if the winmag, 500gr at 2150, 63,000 psi the problem, running the lott at the same pressure is NOT an answer ...

good world? the lott at 2200 fps in the low 50K pressure range ..

perfect world, my 458 AR, 500 gr, 2200 fps, lower pressure than a winmag, in a standard length action

I have no way to measure pressures however The Accurate Arms online reloading reference list the 458 Win mag with a 500 gr Hornady as follows.
Primer; Fed 215
Barrel; 24"


2230; 72.0 gr; 2159 FPS; 53,808 PSI
2460; 74.0 gr; 2192 FPS; 52,864 PSI

www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20Guide...

The 2230 load was very close to spot on with my rifle regarding velocity across a Oehler 35. As previously stated I do not have the means to measure the pressure.
If correct, I would assume that 53-54KSI is a reasonable pressure level.
If I can locate some 2460, I will test that data's validity. Nothing wrong with a tad more velocity with a little less pressure!

I would additionally like to say by all accounts the 2230 is a very temperature insensitive (stable) powder.
This was verified by the conversation with the Accurate folks over the phone as well as dialog across this forum. It is a double base powder. A lot of the older spherical single base powders do have a tendency to "wander" with temp. changes.

EZ

quote:

I intend to use 480grn 458Win Woodleigh bullets with it.

I have wondered for a while now, if this would not be a good answer for the WinMag's short case. Very little difference in weight, but a couple thousandths in bullet length/powder capacity might be the combination the WinMag has always been needing. Seems like a no-brainer to me. A 480 at 2150 always worked in the 450's and 470's.

Any thoughts?

David

Gentlemen.

He asked about factory ammo not handloads. I don't know the length of the barrel on your 458 but with Hornady 500 grain DGS solid factory ammo you can expect from 2,080 to 2,150 fps. That is more than anough for the toughest shot on the biggest ele you may run on to.

465H&H

I agree with 465H&H and in my limited experience with the Hornady DGS (one elephant and one buffalo), they gave very good penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
nothing wrong with 500gr at 2150 ... and with NEW loads, the winmag makes it

what jeffe said as ANY DGS load is NEW loads ...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
... 458 but with Hornady 500 grain DGS solid factory ammo you can expect from 2,080 to 2,150 fps. 465H&H

But I have never seen new Hormady ammo on sale in Africa (there a fiar bit of old 'encapsulated sh!t left behind by clients floating arouns) and the Federal on sale is all pre 1999 when the USA stopped shipments of Ammo to Zim. (ie it is old....)

I would buy woodleighs or Barnes and load them with S321, but understand they have a shelf life of a couple of years under african conditions. - Good enough excuse to go out and blow away any left over ammo in the pre season matches at clevland.

The New Norma factory mmo loaded with Barnes Banded gave 2200fps out of the long 25" barrel on a test CZ rifle earlier this year...but at this stage in Zim, handload. Bullets are easy for guys to bring back from the shows and the SA airport officials don't mind cans of powder in your lugage at Jo'berg...one round of ammo however....

450 gr NF's softs or solids!

Put them ahaed of ~72 (+/-) gr of AA2230 depending on rifle.

With 24" barrel, you will probably easily achieve ~2250 fps with no "case visual" sgns of excess pressure.

ledvm.

The questioner lives in Zimbabwe and there is almost no possibility of him getting and AA2230 powder. Or NF bullets for that matter.

465H&H

Don't forget the excellent GS Custom bullets from RSA. www.gscustom.co.za I am sure Gerard has plenty of data for Sonchem powders and their bullets.

The 450 grain Flat Nose Solid is perfect in the .458WM. I can get 2250 fps MV with no pressure signs and no powder compaction at factory COL. Winchester cases and Fed 215 primers. I do use a Lee factory crimp die as well. I am using AA2230 and H4198.

Good luck.

RCG

quote:

The questioner lives in Zimbabwe and there is almost no possibility of him getting and AA2230 powder. Or NF bullets for that matter.

quote:

but at this stage in Zim, handload. Bullets are easy for guys to bring back from the shows and the SA airport officials don't mind cans of powder in your lugage at Jo'berg...one round of ammo however....

I doubt that you can get a can of powder through US TSA as it iis an explosive but bullets would not be a problem.

465H&H

I can understand many are already invested in the 458WM, but; I would think a gun buyer would just start out with the Lott and forget about any marginal issues with the winmag.

I would not hesitate to use Federal factory or Hornady factory 458 ammo on any game, with the proper bullets, ie solids where indicated...

And to put my money where my mouth is I have used it at veryclose range on one of the most dangerous animals on the Planet...

The 458 saved my life...

Even though it did have only one barrel.

Tony, your getting to sound like Jim Shockey!



465H&H

I do not know much about Jim Shockey.

One gun, one pissed Gorilla!!!

Ledvm

Getting anything other than Somchem powder in Africa is well neigh impossible. I wanted some AA 5744 for some reduced loads and some H1000.

Had to load it into shotgun shells and bring out that way. ie requres a friendly man with a shotgun loading press and a fiar ammount of time and effort. I tried shipping legally some of the above powders. It cost me US$75 per lb - delivered harare!

Bullets are the easy part. Buy good ones in SA from Gerald if you like mono's or from Ken Stuart if you prefer FMJ's, Dzombo seem ok...or get a PH mate to collect some Barns off randy or Woodleighs off Goeff at the shows...Actually L.G. Harrisons has a fair selection of bullets including Speer AGS.

For Primers...we are stuck with PMP or CCI. Again I went to considerable trouble to get some Federal 215's...I am still not sure it was worth it but unless you are loading big Nitro express rounds or Weatherby - not worth the hassel!!!!

Why stick to the .458 Win over the Lott? Well, depends on what rifle you have or like. If you buy a CZ with the long magnum action it makes sence to change it to a lott- it makes it much more reliable for starters! If you have an F.N....or even a winchester M70...the conversion often causes more problems than it solves. I converted my M70 to a lott and regretted doing so. - The action is a little too short- you have to "hook" the rounds under the rear bridge when you reload - the mag is long enough but the opening isn't. Never did get to master a eye's off reload (didn't put in that much effort- didn't like the extra length of bolt throw either and very quickly sold the rifle)

Provided you are going to keep your ammo fresh there is nothing wrong with the .458. If like me, you are used to a standard length action with a 30-06 length of cycle...then staying with a standard mauser action with a .458 win makes sence. If you are used to a .375 length action then yes, start with a Lott...generally it is a lot better round

quote:

I tried shipping legally some of the above powders. It cost me US$75 per lb - delivered harare!

If I lived in Harare and hunted with a 4-5-8 WM...I would gladly pay US$75 for a pound of AA2230!

ozhunter,

Will the cannelure be in a proper position for the .458 Win Mag? The 480 grainers are listed for the .450 Nitro Express.

I've been waiting awhile for .458 480 grain Woodleigh soft nose and solids from Midway. I got some on a birthday price deal.

If you need it, I can measure some new Kynamco Kynoch .450 NE rounds and see what the length of cannelure to nose is.

The 2009 Woodleigh catalog lists .458 diameter bullets under .458 Mag, 450 BPE, 45/70, and 450 Nitro.

Length of bullet
458 Mag 500gr RN SN 1.305
458 Mag 500gr PP SN 1.394
458 Mag 500gr FMJ 1.388
450 NE 480gr RN SN 1.261
450 NE 480gr FMJ 1.340

Hope this helps.

Geoff McDonald at woodleigh will actually put the cannalure where you want it. He has done several commercial runs for small frms like Nimrod who used 480grn bullets in their .458 Win Loads and he has done some with the cannalure much further back than normal so if you have a long throat and long magazine you can see the bullet further out (you can do the same with Barnes banded- effectively they have 4 crimping groves).

Goef has just made me up some solids with a 'repositioned cannalure for my .375 FL, nd it is not as if you have to order a 1000 either!

Ken Stuart I know will also put the cannelure wherever you ask and on runs as small as 100.

Geoff Mcdonald of Woodleigh did advise me that the 480 and the 500gr Softs were constructed the same.

I think the 480's with the cannalure in the proper place would be a great choice for the 458.

I can say they work excellent in my 450 No2 on cape buff, and eland, bullets were recovered, and had mushroomed perfectly.

Other great choices in the 458 would be the 450 North Fork and Swift A Frame.

+1 on the 480's, I think they may be the most viable bullet for the 458 win. It might solve a lot of perceived velocity issues, the only think left to argue about will be the missing 20 gr of bullet weight.

John

John I have used 480 gr Woodleigh Softs and Swift 500gr A Frames, on cape buff and eland, as well as lessor animals, no difference.

I have also used 480 Woodleigh Solids, and North Fork 450gr FP solids on elephants, as well as on giraffe with a few NF Cup points as well.

No difference in killing power.

The NF FP do penetrate deeper IMHO.

I own a CZ550 in 458WM. I simply seat the bullets "long" if I want to, or need to. In effect, you can seat the 450 or 500 Barnes Banded to Lott length without going to the bother of a rechamber job and still have more freebore that the Lott.

Check it out with Barnes. In fact, you can actually seat it longer than the Lott if you want to because the 458WM has a longer chamber overall than the Lott. And it has the same length magazine (the same action).

When the 500gr Banded Solid is seated to normal length in the Winchester(at 3.310" in the top groove)it is .717" off the lands. When the Lott is crimped in the top groove it is only .288" off the lands. The difference in case length is .30".

Therefore: The LOTT's COL, according to Barnes No.4, = 3.580" + .288" = 3.868" (chamber)

The .458WM = 3.310", according to Barnes when chrimped into the top cannelure, + .717 = 4.027" (chamber). SO, you COULD (if wanted) SEAT THE 500 BARNES BANDED IN THE CZ 550 TO 3.67" (crimped into bottom groove) AND STILL HAVE .069" MORE FREEBORE THAN THE LOTT !!!

Those are facts, NOT hyperbole! As John Barsness says, "DO THE MATH!"

Why therefore, would you even want to change a CZ from a .458WM to a Lott???

PLUS the FACT that, according to BARNES No.4, even at standard COL for each with 24" tubes, the Winchester is already at 2194 fps with the 500 BND SLD at safe pressure! Oh yeah, I forgot, the No.4 grants 2246 fps for the Lott with the same powder! A MIRACULOUS 52 fps advantage from 6grs more powder

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Why therefore, would you even want to change a CZ from a .458WM to a Lott???

Your post is saying that because the WM case is short, the solution is to compensate by seating the bullet out longer. As opposed to simply starting with a proper length Lott case and seating the bullet nice and comfy with plenty of neck tension.

Why would anybody WASTE a CZ550 magnun action on a short 458WM, its just like putting the short 500Jeffrey/Schuler into action that will accomodate a full length 505Gibbs. These are compromise designs made to fit in standard lenght actions.

I have no doubt the Lott would make that extra 52 fps and do it at a lower pressure too!

I suspect that holland tunnel length of freebore in the winmag has a purpose and that is to lower pressures like the long freebore cut into Weatherby chambers for their hot rod cartridges.

I was looking a Winchester guns web site yesterday and I see the the M70 in 375H&H (a long ctg) is back in production.
I see they are making the 416 Rem (a long ctg) too.
I see they are chambering the 458 Win Mag std length) again to bad.

I couldn't believe my eyes, 50 years later and Winchester is still trying to squeeze everything into 30-06 length even when they have the 375/416 platform to use. What a bunch of dumb ass's.

At the very least they should chamber both the 458 Lott and 458 Winmag and let the gun buying public choose which ever they want, at least they will make a sale that way. Even it you had to put in a order with a dealer for one an wait a year for the next production run.

If you had a 458 Winmag maybe the smart thing to do is to have it converted to a Lott and have the gunsmith cut the chamber with what ever amount of freebore suits your reloading style, to load to Winmag velocity at lower pressure order and have the bullet close to the lands or go all out and take the Lott to SAAMI max pressures( 64K psi?) to make use of the long freebore you've had cut.

Also I would think that the Lott opperated a winmag velocity 2150 fps would give the handloader much broader choice of powders to experiment than the winmag at this same velocity.

quote:

I couldn't believe my eyes, 50 years later and Winchester is still trying to squeeze everything into 30-06 length even when they have the 375/416 platform to use. What a bunch of dumb ass's.

Exactly! Stupid, stubborn, ... dumb ass

Ignorant can be fixed, stupid is forever....

From a North American perspective I cannot understand why (if you handload) where some of these comments come from when all that has been written and published about the 458 Win Mag and a few modern powders available.
With accurate powders (manufacturer) of 2230 and 2460 you can obtain 2150 fps @ 54 KSI and 2192 FPS @ 53 KSI chamber pressures respectively (500 gr Hornady).
This is NOT 63 KSI !!! Go to their loading web site! From what I can tell visually, these are not compressed loads. They just about fill the case to the bottom of the bullet seating base.
I realize this is for 2 distinct domestically produced (USA) powders that may not be offered globally.
This is about what the Lott produces (pressure wise) at the same velocities. I have rifles in both cartridges. From a global perspective their may be some advantage to the Lott however I suspect it is commercially loaded to the same pressure levels as the Win mag (exception of the Norma PH; which appears a milder load).
I acquired my Lott due to the history of the Win Mag, however I am a hand loader and when I was able the verify these data produced by accurate powders across my chrono I began leaning back towards the Win Mag. My Win mag is a trimmer lighter rifle with probably about the same recoil as the Lott in a 2 lb lighter package. I am not concerned about pressure either as 53-54 KSI is well below 63 KSI and 2230 appears a extremely temperature stable powder.
These two powder offerings have put new life into the ole' 458 Win Mag for handloaders.
I am not one of these guys that has a "favorite" cartridge and all else is dirt. When I see a good thing I can recognize it.
The one big advantage I can see to the Lott is its longer case and perhaps the ability to handle long Mono bullets at 500 gr better than the Win Mag. In That instance a 450 gr may be better suited to the Win Mag.
Bottom line is if you own a Lott; do not sell it. If you have a Win Mag, handload, with access to 2230 or 2460 you may have a real gem!

EZ

From a safety perspective I can only assume there is a significant margin of safety loading to 63 KSI or Saami would have never set that limit. I would be interested in knowing what % margin that is below a "dangerous level; however that question may be pending the age of the rifle you are using and the manufacturer (metalurgy pending). I would assume is a 2X safety margin in a modern firearm prior to destruction.
It would also be interesting to know what pressure is realized when you begin witnessing a
"sticky" bolt?

here is another tid bit for thought. Both Remington and Ruger have decided to offer new 416 ctgs. More or less, a clean slate effort. Remington used a magnum length belted H&H case and Ruger used a std length FAT case. Neither tried to shoe horn the needed performance into a std lenght ctg based on H&H case. Reasonable engineers study the problem and decided on the added powder space. This is 40 cal no less, not a 45. Some of the best 45's out there might be more along the lines of 450 Rigby, 460G&A, etc..

Not everybody likes to reload and others might want the most versatility and easy of reloading. The little extra space in the Lott is just the ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by greenjoy:
I have no doubt the Lott would make that extra 52 fps and do it at a lower pressure too!

So, YOU have no doubt... And where did you get those FACTS? From Barnes? I DOUBT that!

I talk with personnel at Barnes and Hornady on a semi-regular basis. AND I know, for a FACT, that they do NOT load the 458WM "hot" and the Lott "low" pressure! What purpose would that serve? Are they as biased as you seem to be?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

Why therefore, would you even want to change a CZ from a .458WM to a Lott???

Your post is saying that because the WM case is short, the solution is to compensate by seating the bullet out longer. As opposed to simply starting with a proper length Lott case and seating the bullet nice and comfy with plenty of neck tension.

Why would anybody WASTE a CZ550 magnun action on a short 458WM,

My post is saying exactly what I intend it to say. It is NOT saying what your spin puts on it!

I guess you'd have to ask CZ that question because they manufactured it that way. And I chose it that way, not to please you but myself!

My point IS that there's no need to rechamber it, for anyone with a CZ550 in 458WM ALREADY has the equivalent of a Lott IF they handload!

AND as to a "nice and comfy with plenty of neck tension", the Barnes' Banded and TSX (in question) has multiple crimp grooves for PLENTY of neck tension!

As a matter of FACT I have BOTH a 458WM and Lott in my rifle, if wanted. But what I've discovered (in fact) is that with the Hornady 500gr seated at SAAMI COL (3.34") AND at 3.51" (not quite Lott length, but with the Barnes bullets I can easily match or exceed the Lott) the difference is 20 fps at the longer length. Now, if you find that meaningful, I don't!

So, tell me when you've checked out the Barnes manual, or talked with Barnes about their data, and then we can have a MEANINGFUL discussion.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

If a certain hand loader gets some result or particular manual shows some surprise. What am I to say? Results vary, I suppose. Bottom line, 458WM was always considered minimal in case capacity. The Lott is a little bigger is has to be easier to work with. Whatever your performance goal, it should , on average, be a little easier to reach that level with the Lott. Unless you are loading down for bear. And there a Ruger Alaskan in 458WM might get interesting.

Is it odd how most of the 458WM threads seems to focus on what the max fps achieved. I would expect re loaders would first state a power goal. Then try to meet that level at the lowest pressure and near 100% load density. Imagine if you have a big case like 450 Rigby you dial in any power level, 500Gr @2100, 2200, 2300, 2400 fps easy-easy. How nice that would that be? If the 458WM meets your goal, you are good to go.

This is where I am really coming from. Back in 1911 to 1912 the British introduced the 375HH, 416Rigby and 505 Gibbs. Unfortunately, we did not get a 450 magazine ctg in that time period by the British. If we had, that would be my choice. That leaves me, an American gun nut, wrapped up in the history and romance of a bygone era, without a classic choice in 45. The 458 Lott will do fine for me.

My point way back, is if a person was to buy a new 45 cal rifle for Africa, the Lott is ctg of choice today. For a variety reasons.

I'll provide this amount of information for anyone who may profit from it, not to win an argument or purposely put others in a bad light: It's included in my manual on the 458WM, which I don't usually publish here but there are so many opinions based on hearsay and the history of the 458WM, I felt it might be a good thing to publish some data:

First off, here's a quote from an NRA publication, HANDLOADING, copyright 1981:

Emphasis is mine: "The working chamber pressure for the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge is commonly limited to ABOUT 53,000 c.u.p. The ESTABLISHED MAXIMUM PRODUCT AVERAGE FOR FACTORY AMMUNITION IS 56,200 c.u.p."

53,000 cup is about 62,500 psi. 56,200 cup is about 66,300 psi. BTW, it's legit to give a short quote, while giving due credit, without permission, as long as it's not used out of context to try to make it say what is not intended in the original publication.

A week ago yesterday I was in my favorite hunting area (with 2 to 3 ft of snow) on snowshoes. The purpose was to enjoy the outdoors on snowshoes and do some chronographing at the same time. Temperature was - 7C/20*F. I fired off 9 rounds from my CZ 550 in 458WM. Most were 500gr Hor RNs, along with a few 450 Swift A-Frames.

The top load for the 500s went 2263 fps using a powder that's common for the Lott. My COL was 3.34", crimped into the cannelure of the Hornady. There were absolutely NO indications of excessive pressure. NONE. NADA.

Keeping in mind that it WAS loaded as a 458 Win Mag, fired in my 25" CZ... I put the data into my computer program, and it said the pressure was 54,520 cup/64,334 psi. Yes, a bit more than the RECOMMENDED avg, but NOT more than the "established maximum product average for factory ammunition".

I'll not give the load data here (you'll have to buy my manual ) but the powder was NOT AA2230 or 2460 (which, btw didn't prove to be quite as good as H335 in MY rifle).

Now, for those of you who want to protest about the temps changing this and that, I'll save you the worry: I've fired the same loads at "normal" temps and last week's results were right in line with "normal" temps.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca