Been flamed by the Garret 45/70 crowd???

07 September 2007, 15:48

traveling at a slower speed allows more time to penetrate much deeper.....how's that

07 September 2007, 16:59

gohip2000

I think that the 45-70 is the biggest bore that a lot of people have any experience with. -the 45-70 is the biggest bore I've been able to fire yet, but I wouldn't put it in the same league as the real big bores. I think that the modernazation of the 45-70 has shown people a drastic increase in it's killing ability and that is running with their imaginations. I love my 45-70, but if I was hunting dangerous game in africa, I'ld get a real african cartridge. I don't doubt that the right loads penatrate very well, but I wouldn't feel comfortable taking an animal that kill me with the 45-70, except maybe bear. I'd love to hunt pig with it though and maybe african plains game some day.

I did shoot a 460 gr cast bullet through 2x 9ftx9ft chunks of wood, and I thought that was pretty cool. still have to try it on animals though

07 September 2007, 17:22

ScottS

Gentlemen,

It is all a very complex hydrodynamic phenomena. There is a sweet spot velocity which allows for extraordinary penetration. Obvisouly Garrett has found this velocity in the 45-70, undoubtedly by trial and error shooting into wet newspaper. The typical express African style rifle cartridges are far surpassing this sweet spot velocity; therefore, suffering from a definite reduction in penetration (reference wet newspaper penetration tests done by Linebaugh and Garrett).

The continued lamenting of the African style express big bore cartridge shooter is NOTHING more than crying in their beer because they have finally learned that size doesn't matter (it is how you use it that counts)! You guys are ALL pathetic!

Now where is did I put that POS 45-70 I own??? Oh yeah, it is at my cousins.

07 September 2007, 17:26

KSTEPHENS

There is a sweet spot velocity which allows for extraordinary penetration.

what good is that?
velocity isnt static.

07 September 2007, 17:38

JPK

The real issue is "wet newsprint test medium" vs. game. Wet newsprint tears and wads, flesh does not. If the newsprint is dry, the so called advantage of the slow bullets disapear.

Flat noses do outpenetrate round noses but for similar solid bullets, velocity is the only determing factor in the real world of game and the faster the bullet the deeper the penetration.

07 September 2007, 18:03

makeminestainless

Easy marketing. I would say a large minority if not the majority of gun owners (not people on this forum by and large) use too much pride and not enough physics when thinking about their own guns. Not that there is anything wrong with the calibers, but the 270, 7mm RM, 30-06 and 45-70 rifles and 45 ACP and 44 mag pistols make me cringe when they show up at a range or hunting camp. They are very often attached to a big a$$hole who tells (loudly) how much better they are than any other choice and everyone who doesn't own one is a fool. The 45 acp can kill someone by hitting them in the foot or hand and saved the Marines in the Philippines (the 38 specials the Pentagon issued them wouldn't kill the natives high on LSD or angle dust and just bounced off of curved windshields), the 1911 pistol design has never jammed...ever in history, and won't even if driven over with a truck in the mud. The Rem 7400 in '06 with an "Ironsighter" mounted 3x9 Tasco loaded with accelerators is every bit as good as a 220 Swift in an HB varmint gun and can, just by changing to heavy bullets, be great for Grizzly (somehow the guy next to him with the 300 win mag would be a fool to walk around in bear country with that over bored "God awful kicking" joke of a gun). The 270, also with a look under 3x9 Tasco can take game at 1000 yards easy, the 7mm can take really big game at 1000 yards, also with ease. Actually the '06 can do this too with boat tail bullets. The 44 mag "in a Ruger" is still the worlds biggest handgun and appropriate for all game that would need a 338 or 375 if you were fool enough to use a rifle (when this guy started walking a screw out of his Ruger with his own special hand loads I must admit I was impressed!). And of course our current topic that the 45-70 is way more of a gun than the Lott, little alone the puny 458 Win mag and could probably take on some wussy 505 Gibbs.

Thanks! It felt good to rant.

Garret's claims may be BS, but he's a smart guy....

07 September 2007, 18:54

Tailgunner

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
This is how i see it...

The 45-70 can be a more efficient user of its energy in penetration via flat nose hard cast bullets that dont deform.

The faster the bullet the harder the target

apples to apples a flat nose bullet will penetrate more going faster but expanding bullets have more resistance and transfer energy in other than penetration.

Shoot what you want and have fun.

Carry that logic out a bit further, and you'll next be stating that the 22LR is a more effective deer cartridge than a 22-250 or 220 Swift is (and the 22LR has a long history of killing deer, even though it's with a spotlight out the car window).

07 September 2007, 19:06

richj

Hey I saw it in the movie Dune. It must be true.

Rich

07 September 2007, 19:30

surestrike

And the very best from the .45-70 crowd.....

I asked one of the varmints the other day, "If I was to slow my Lott down to identical velocity with an identical bullet wouldn't that make it the same?"

The answer no because it is still "just" a .458 Lott.

GO YOU BAND OF "45-70ers"!

Banjo music playing in the background...

07 September 2007, 20:10

congomike

A Shooting Times writer said "smaller is better"?! Didn't Winchester's "smaller is better" WSM line tank? Probably contributing to the demise of the company?

KSTEPHENS...in answer to your question, it is simple...just make sure that when you shoot your game animal that it is at the EXACT distance that the bullet hits its "sweet spot velocity".....couldn't be any simpler than that!

07 September 2007, 20:20

Atkinson

I have shot a few deer and elk with the .45-70 and the 45-90 and I used hot handloads and the best of bullets..I was never impressed with it as a killer of either. I have some of those kills on film, and they are not impressive.

As to who uses them, that's fine with me, use whatever you want.. I just don't care for them...

I do love the old lever action Winchesters and Marlin rifles and the workmanship that went into them..

07 September 2007, 21:18

GeorgeS

My mistake, boom stick. I must have missed the post where you said you owned a .45-70 amongst all your other posts about big bores and rounds you didn't own.

Have you killed anything with it?

George

07 September 2007, 21:35

ScottS

George,

Not Boomie, but I have seen the effects of a 45-70 on whitetail. It works about as well as the 12 ga slug when said 45-70 is loaded with 405gr Remington SP at 1900 fps and the range is kept under 75 yards. So it does work OK for whitetails at shorter ranges.

I guess if it has been loaded with 540gr HC Garretts it would have been much better though.

07 September 2007, 21:55

ray m

M Shitman,

Since you have followed me over here and ignored how I said that I don't want to hear from a Garrett Koolaid drinker,you don't deserve a damn bit of diplomacy.

You know absolutely NOTHING about my history.For you to make assertions about it furthur reveals what a complete moron you are.

After reading your posts,I would consider having a discussion with you to be comparable to stepping in a pile of dog shit.You're a complete idiot.

Go back and sip your koolaid and then choke on your own vomit.

07 September 2007, 22:50

400 Nitro Express

quote:
Originally posted by MS Hitman:
raym,

Too bad you decided to piss your pants and come whining over on this forum. You started off with a simple starement/question; â€œI've used a hard cast 250 gr SWC in the 44 magnum for many years. Has anyone here done any "actual "penetration test comparisons between the medium weight (240-250) and the heavy weight bullets (300+)? If so, can you give specifics? Thanks!â€ . This was answered with some data from actual testing. I have also killed a fair amount of game that yields some correlation to this data.

After some discussion of revolver rounds, you interject this statement into the conversation; â€œWhen someone tells me that a 45/70 with a solid will out penetrate a more powerful caliber using a solid by virtue of it's lower velocity, that person has forever lost any degree of credibility in my view.

People with serious African experience consider Garret to be a complete joke. He is either a moron or a liar with an agenda and that agenda, I suspect is to capitalize on the popularity of the 45/70.

Men with experience with large African game find Garret's assertions to be completely absurd and so do I.â€

After still further discussion regarding the variables involved with your question you came with this, â€œLet's compare apples with apples.

Take a well built solid (one that will not deform) of whatever size and weight you care to use for an example.

Just for the hell of it, let's make it a 46 caliber of 600 grains in weight.

The faster you drive that bullet, the deeper it will penetrate...period!!!!

To say otherwise is to be absolutely ridiculous. To refute that not only completely ignores large African game experience, it also runs totally contrary to the laws of physics.

No amount of psychobabble nor spin will change it.â€ No pyschobabble or spin put on it. Iâ€™m still discussing actual data obtained from testing. Mine are just three finite events, but these correlate with other finite events to start establishing a pattern.

Not content, but apparently more than willing to stir the pot, you add the following, â€œI can't believe you're serious. This has been demonstrated time after time after time.

I said APPLES VS APPLES. You're comparing different projectiles.â€ When asked about your references and any documentation to support your position this is your response, â€œWhere have you been????....This is so completely ridiculous, I won't even dignify it. For years, I've been hearing about the Garret 45/70 loonies and now I understand, for the first time , the very depth of the lunacy.

You people truly live in your own universe .Keep sipping your koolaid.â€. Why the personal attacks on Garrett? Why even bring him in on this?

â€œI would just as soon argue with a five year old.â€ I can arrange this and even set up a match with a two-year old to let you get warmed up if you think you need it.

Just as in my response, I still want to know what you are basing your opinions on Mr. enthusiast. You pontificate about the men of great African experience; are you one of them bub? Iâ€™ve been and seen and shot game. Doesnâ€™t make me an expert, but it certainly adds to my base of experience. You quote (rather loosely I might add) concerning the laws of physics. Ever heard of the law regarding equal and opposite reactions? Again, I still want to know what your background is this area that you speak from â€œoff the side of the mountainâ€. By the way, I am a professional engineer, have taken the physics classes and have the t-shirt somewhere.

You came over on the handgun hunting forum and asked a question concerning projectiles for handguns. This turned into a discussion in which you brought in rifles and their projectiles; hardly â€œapples and applesâ€. Then you got â€œflamedâ€ when asked for you references; spouting what you consider to be empirical data doesnâ€™t cut it, which is why you got my response.

I donâ€™t shoot Garrettâ€™s ammo, most likely never will. I load my own and that includes the Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag and the Browning in .375 H&H.

As pointed out to you, there are many variables involved in different bullets fired from different firearms penetrating different mediums. Your dogged defense of absolutes makes my wonder about your experience.

Yes, listen to 400 Nitro Express, because I canâ€™t really say Iâ€™ll miss you over on the handgun hunting forum.

Put down the crack pipe and place both hands on the wall....

Cue "Twilight Zone" music...

Unfreakin'believable.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

08 September 2007, 10:28

Indlovu

An exhaustive search of the world ballistic literature failed to reveal any "sweet spot" velocity for solids; its a figment of someones imagination. for a non deforming solid of the same weight, penetration is proportional to velocity. Isaac newton said so, and he hasnt been disproven yet!
If someone insists on a sweet spot velocity, its .99 C (the velocity of light)
The "complex hydrodynamic phenomenon" affecting penetration are supercavitation and shoulder stabilization, NOT a sweet spot velocity
QUOTE]Originally posted by ScottS:
Gentlemen,

It is all a very complex hydrodynamic phenomena. There is a sweet spot velocity which allows for extraordinary penetration. Obvisouly Garrett has found this velocity in the 45-70, undoubtedly by trial and error shooting into wet newspaper. The typical express African style rifle cartridges are far surpassing this sweet spot velocity; therefore, suffering from a definite reduction in penetration (reference wet newspaper penetration tests done by Linebaugh and Garrett).

The continued lamenting of the African style express big bore cartridge shooter is NOTHING more than crying in their beer because they have finally learned that size doesn't matter (it is how you use it that counts)! You guys are ALL pathetic!

Now where is did I put that POS 45-70 I own??? Oh yeah, it is at my cousins.[/QUOTE]

09 September 2007, 11:08

N E 450 No2

I have shot Garretts ammo in 44 Mag and in 45/70, both lead Hammerheads.

I found his ammo to be excellent in every way.

I have carried both loads for bear protection, but have not had to use them.

This penetration thing keeps comming up.

I do know there is a hunter [Vince ??] that has killed the big five with his 45/70 and Garrett ammo. Elephants have been killed with a bow as well.

The key factor in penetration on game animals hinges on bullet stability IMHO.

All else equal the more stable bullet will penetrate more. The problem for us is comparing a stable bullet shape, like a FN 45/70 to say a RN in a 458 at an even higher velocity.

Which will penetrate farther???

I can say that with similar shots on the same game a 450gr North Fork FP Solid will penetrate farther than a 480gr Woodleigh Solid.

The FP penetrates farther because it is more stable, ie has less of an overturning moment.

The larger percentage of weight in the back of the bullet, the more unstable it is on game, with FMJ Spitzers being the worst, as they will usually "tumble".

09 September 2007, 22:21

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by Indlovu:
If someone insists on a sweet spot velocity, its .99 C (the velocity of light)

Sir,
I agree emphatically!
Bullet mass will also approach infinity as it approaches the speed of light.
That means sectional density will also approach infinity!
That has got to be the ticket!

10 September 2007, 02:05

ray m

This whole thing that involved me occured when I asked the simple question about two different bullet weights(from the 44 magnum handgun)with each being driven to it's full potential.I had no idea that I was going to encounter such bizarre ideas.

When I began being pummeled with that which comes right out of the Garrett philosophy manual,I countered with what I considered to be rational.

Long ago,I reached the conclussion that one should not argue with an idiot.I occasionally have to be reminded of it.

10 September 2007, 02:22

makeminestainless

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by Indlovu:
If someone insists on a sweet spot velocity, its .99 C (the velocity of light)

Sir,
I agree emphatically!
Bullet mass will also approach infinity as it approaches the speed of light.
That means sectional density will also approach infinity!
That has got to be the ticket!

Don't forget the added benefit of Bremsstrahlung! Just walk up to the freshly microwaved kill after the shot and cut off your toasty hot steaks.

10 September 2007, 03:50

Macifej

Mesquite or Hickory?

10 September 2007, 05:14

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by Indlovu:
If someone insists on a sweet spot velocity, its .99 C (the velocity of light)

Sir,
I agree emphatically!
Bullet mass will also approach infinity as it approaches the speed of light.
That means sectional density will also approach infinity!
That has got to be the ticket!

So are y'all saying that if my women Euclidia is holding a spot light on a deer when I shoot him from my truck at night that the bullets will penetrate further than if I am only using the headlights?

Therefore a bullet has infinite mass when spotlighting..

COOL

10 September 2007, 05:26

Macifej

Sum bawdee be smokin' da weed mawn!

10 September 2007, 05:38

Whitworth

Step away from the crack pipe!

10 September 2007, 05:40

surestrike

Iere mawn, spliffin fo da good of mawn kinde.

Power to da people.

10 September 2007, 05:55

RIP

Relativity adds mass to a bullet as its speed increases. That blows Garrett out of the water, or wet paper.

surestrike's proposed "Euclidean" photon engine might take centuries to add enough speed to his bullet to measure, but I fear she and he will have to conduct the experiment in deep space, like FAR OUT man!

Garrettophiles smoke crack!

10 September 2007, 06:14

Macifej

This is really a waste of bandwidth amigos. If those retards want to put up, then a series of penetration tests could be arranged or deranged as the case may be. Wet newsprint, plywood, concrete bricks, steel plate. Doesn't matter what or how much. Any load for a 45-70 vs any load for a Win Mag, Lott, Wby, etc. Same rifle platform. #1 - bolt gun whatever. Why am I even typing this nonsense. RIP are you ready to build some big guns or what. These little .458's are starting to get irritating. Even this 700 nitro case next to my keyboard is looking puny.

10 September 2007, 06:29

juanpozzi

Dear friends ,i have many rifles in different calibers 458s,416s,375hyh,and i use all of them for buffalo hunting or i rent to the clients ,but dont kill me i have been using garrets in my marlin 4570 for several yeras with great great results even stopping ,charges ,SGRAVES lately and many of the hunters of this forum saw it in action ,in the last time i shot a bull in the chest stopped and the bullet go and exit in the middle of the body vertebraes .So i recommend garrets without hesitation ,and only based in actual experience as i never waste my bullets in paper because here are very difficult to find.Indeed i rely in billinthewild for them.Juan

10 September 2007, 07:55

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
... RIP are you ready to build some big guns or what. These little .458's are starting to get irritating. Even this 700 nitro case next to my keyboard is looking puny.

Bro' Bear Head:

I sure would like to see a picture of a 2-Bore on your website. And I am wondering how much one of thse calibrated recoil reducers weighs and how many can be fit in a buttstock? Are they "water cooled."

I voted in the poll, not the pole.

And no, I would not vote for a .45-70, if the choice was offered, even one loaded with Garrett ammo. Even if Garrett is as good as it gets in a 45-70 (NOT) it is still a 45-70.

10 September 2007, 08:12

Macifej

I'll get some photos on the site when I'm done and tested. Don't want to get flamed like that guy with the auto loading 505. The damper weighs 2.2 lbs and is 9.5 inches long. That particular device is WAAAAAAAAAY to big for a normal rifle. Could be made much smaller and more effective. Have something in mind?

10 September 2007, 09:03

Indlovu

That's water buffalo, right? i shot one with a 458 garret in my slingshot, penetrated right through seven of em

quote:
Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Dear friends ,i have many rifles in different calibers 458s,416s,375hyh,and i use all of them for buffalo hunting or i rent to the clients ,but dont kill me i have been using garrets in my marlin 4570 for several yeras with great great results even stopping ,charges ,SGRAVES lately and many of the hunters of this forum saw it in action ,in the last time i shot a bull in the chest stopped and the bullet go and exit in the middle of the body vertebraes .So i recommend garrets without hesitation ,and only based in actual experience as i never waste my bullets in paper because here are very difficult to find.Indeed i rely in billinthewild for them.Juan

10 September 2007, 11:31

Hawaiian_Hunter

quote:
Originally posted by ray m:
I've just been the recipient of some vigorous flaming by certain individuals (particularly one),who have explained to me that reducing the velocity of a bullet will increase it's penetration.

Where did this exchange take place, i'd like to read it myself. Please post a link, THANKS!

10 September 2007, 12:24

gohip2000

so, If flat points ceate a frictionles bubble after they enter a fluid like state, how come I don't hear any reviews on the Barnes banded solid. Seems to me that more of you african hunters should use a flat point penetrator, not to disprove the 45-70 croud, but to see if a flat point does infact help penetration. Lord know most hunter cannot afford to go to africa and test this hypothisis. If I could afford it, I would go with all flat point solids to see if it is the velocity or the fact that at a lower velocity, lead acts like a solid and the flat point helps it penetrate.
Not all of the 45-70 croud has faith in it's cartidge as a dangerous game cartidge and would like someone to prove once and for all what it is that has all these people sturring up grandures of hunting DG with the lever actionis all about.

10 September 2007, 19:30

surestrike

The flat nosed Barnes banded solid is a bad mo fo.

10 September 2007, 23:44

walksfar

I've owned .45-70's, and I personally have no ill will toward the cartridge, that is, if it is used within it's preformance boundaries.
That is, deer, hogs, etc., although I find it a little light for hogs weighing over 300pds.
Let me explain why: When I hunt, I like to hunt with a rifle that, on the first shot, will make the game go down, then, and there, immediately, as if the earth were pulled from underneath them. As a hunter, I like to be as humane as possible, with flattening, instant kills. Humanely.
For dangerous game, this does not work all the time, even with some big-a$$ guns, but what do we owe the animal? We owe the animal a right to not have to suffer any longer than it has to.
In my opinion, using a .45-70 on buff or the like, is an example of failing in our job as hunters to be both humane, and at the same time save our own hides from an inevitable hairy situation that may not happen all the time, but when it does, it becomes bad, ten-fold.
So, save the .45-70 for deer and hogs, because if one is affording to hunt buff, then it is a given that one can afford at least a Ruger Lott or a CZ, at least.
Common sense is a virtue. Use it.
The .45-70 at it's best, duplicates the .450 BPE, and these were the best deer cartridges of all time in my opinion, so leave them at that, where they belong.
Don't use a .45-70, where something is calling for a .450 or .500 cordite.
Again, it's common sense.
I'm not downing the .45-70, it's a wonderful cartridge. But, like all cartridges, each one fills a different niche. For the .45-70, dangerous game is not one of them.

11 September 2007, 00:38

JPK

quote:
Originally posted by gohip2000:
so, If flat points ceate a frictionles bubble after they enter a fluid like state, how come I don't hear any reviews on the Barnes banded solid. Seems to me that more of you african hunters should use a flat point penetrator, not to disprove the 45-70 croud, but to see if a flat point does infact help penetration. Lord know most hunter cannot afford to go to africa and test this hypothisis. If I could afford it, I would go with all flat point solids to see if it is the velocity or the fact that at a lower velocity, lead acts like a solid and the flat point helps it penetrate.
Not all of the 45-70 croud has faith in it's cartidge as a dangerous game cartidge and would like someone to prove once and for all what it is that has all these people sturring up grandures of hunting DG with the lever actionis all about.

I have tested round nose Woodleigh solids at 2135fps vs. flat nose 450gr North Fork mono metals at 2190fps in buff and elephant heads. The flat nose solids provide far greater penetration.

Another member hear, 500 Grains has tested flat nose and round nose solids (of like weight at like velocities, IIRC) and he also found that the flat nose solids penetrated better.

I have not tried Barnes. 500 Grains tried the previous round nose Barnes and they lacked penetration compared to the Woodleighs, possibly due to there greater length. The current Barnes do not have a very large flat nose, fwiw.

JPK

11 September 2007, 03:46

ScottS

juanpozzi,

Everyone here at AR knows that those water buffalo are WAY softer targets than cape buffalo.

How would you compare the 45-70 Garrets vs a 500 Jeffery shooting 535gr Woodleigh soft points? About the same, or is the 45-70 better?

11 September 2007, 03:54

Indlovu

Dont know about the frictionless state and/or shoulder stabilization, but the Navy sure seems to think so (supercavitating torpedoes).
Re penetration, my .505, 500 gr flat point solid penetrated 8+ ft of elly and exited the other side, my PH's .458 roundnose 500 gr PMC solid (better SD) barely did 5 feet. Both shot at same velocity, same jumbo, same angle etc.

"how come I don't hear any reviews on the Barnes banded solid."

I dont shoot solid brass slugs, so cant say if they are any good; but there are plenty of reviews on this forum about flat point North fork solids, all positive from what I can tell.

I have no experience with NF solids, so cant say

quote:
Originally posted by gohip2000:
so, If flat points ceate a frictionles bubble after they enter a fluid like state, how come I don't hear any reviews on the Barnes banded solid. Seems to me that more of you african hunters should use a flat point penetrator, not to disprove the 45-70 croud, but to see if a flat point does infact help penetration. Lord know most hunter cannot afford to go to africa and test this hypothisis. If I could afford it, I would go with all flat point solids to see if it is the velocity or the fact that at a lower velocity, lead acts like a solid and the flat point helps it penetrate.
Not all of the 45-70 croud has faith in it's cartidge as a dangerous game cartidge and would like someone to prove once and for all what it is that has all these people sturring up grandures of hunting DG with the lever actionis all about.

11 September 2007, 19:04

Marc_Stokeld

People running "tests" on wet newspritn or whatever are fooling htmeselves, or intentionally manipulating the data to get the results they want. Calibrated ballistic gelatin is the best we have for testing how well bullets penetrate. If not using this, then there is no apples to apples comparison.

The key is that each block of gelatin is calibrated and offers a known and proven resitance.

11 September 2007, 19:16

El Deguello

I have never hunted in Africa, and my dogs do a creditable job of keeping the elephants, rhinos, and Cape Bufflao out of my back yard here.

It seems to me that there is a specific velocity range withing which a .458", 500-grain solid bullet will penetrate deepest. Assuming this is true, then the size, shape, and powder capacity of the cartridge case that'll give such a bullet the required velocity does not matter. I will not pretend to know what this cartridge is, however, a .458 Lott, a .460 WM, a .45/70, or whatever. I leave that to people who should know based on experience.

If I ever have an opportunity to shoot at such game, however, I will probably select the .416 Rigby in my safe vs the .45/70 that sits there beside it.....