Is this enough for DG?
What do you guys think?

Doesn't make a stopping rifle !


Nick

450-400 NE ballistics. About.
Matt

Old advertisements not withstanding, those are very close to the actual ballistics of the 416 Rigby when the cartridge was making its well deserved reputation.

It depends on how it will be used. Will it penetrate well and kill well. I think yes. Is it the ultimate point blank range Stopping rifle load. No. But, a 400 gr 40 cal bullet at 2150 is very easy to shoot well. That translates into being easy to hit well with. And putting the bullet in the right spot kills game well. The 450/400 has a great reputation hunting heavy and dangerous game.
What are you shooting that gives those ballistics.
The 404 Jeffries gave that velocity but with a .423" bullet and its put the kybosh to ship loads of heavy and dangerous game.

Not to argue with my dear friend Forrest, believe this is more or less the actual FIELD ballistics of the 404 jeffery .. and just about the 450/400 ... the 416 caliber isn't a stopper, and a nice mild one would be a great hunting friend

btw, this is the realistic ballistics from a 416 taylor

Agree with all of the above, except about the Rigby statistics.

The 416 Rigby had 2400fps as its nominal 400grain velocity. That is a significant jump in energy and flatter trajectory.

Handloaders, even Jack O'Connor with a grimace, mentioned that the case allows over 2600+fps with 400-410grain bullets.

Such a .416 would sit "neck and neck" with traditionally loaded 404 Jeffery and 450/400 ammo.

Having actually chrographed many large English caliber rifles using original Kynoch and factory ammo I have come to the conclusion that they were as generous, if not more so, with their advertised muzzle velocities than modern manufacturers. The average loads ran around 2150 fps, no matter if it was a 404, .425 WR or 505 Gibbs. And these came from original rifles with barrels as long as 26 inches. Many loads from 450/400 were only running 1900 fps!
It is probable that in extreme tropical heat they gave higher velocity but it isn't always hot and at 50 or 100 yards down range the real impact speed at the animal was 100 - 200 fps less anyway.

Bal, you'll be just fine with those ballistics.

Phil is absolutely correct.

I will add that at those velocities I have found Woodleigh Softs and Solids to perform perfect, in every way.

I suspect that would do the job, but you can do better.

I ran the Woodleigh suggested load for their 450gr in my .416 Rigby, which I later found out only resulted in about 2250fps. 3 of 4 Cape Buffalo dropped to one shot and all rounds penetrated to the far side. The 4th took 2 rounds which had more to do with placement then power.

I've since stoked it up to about 2550fps with the 400gr Barnes but I doubt the game will notice any difference. Just shoots a bit flatter for those Kudu that are often a way off.

I think you will be fine and if it lets you shoot more accurately then that is more important.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Not to argue with my dear friend Forrest, believe this is more or less the actual FIELD ballistics of the 404 jeffery .. and just about the 450/400 ... the 416 caliber isn't a stopper, and a nice mild one would be a great hunting friend

btw, this is the realistic ballistics from a 416 taylor

My 2 shortish barrel 416 Taylor's maxed out at 2300+2350 fps with 400 gr bullets but I backed them down to around 2200 fps with 400 grainers for meat hunting. With a 24-26" barrels. They seem to be able to get 2400 fps with the 400 gr.

As far as usefulness on dg can't really see any difference between a 416 bullet and a. 411 or .423 bullet of the same weight at the same speed.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
It depends on how it will be used. Will it penetrate well and kill well. I think yes. Is it the ultimate point blank range Stopping rifle load. No. But, a 400 gr 40 cal bullet at 2150 is very easy to shoot well. That translates into being easy to hit well with. And putting the bullet in the right spot kills game well. The 450/400 has a great reputation hunting heavy and dangerous game.
What are you shooting that gives those ballistics.
The 404 Jeffries gave that velocity but with a .423" bullet and its put the kybosh to ship loads of heavy and dangerous game.

Sorry to take so long to answer your question,while my primary hunting guns are mostly double rifles,lately I am also enjoying lever action rifles,specifically the win 1886 & 71,I am planning on getting a conversion done on the last 71 that I bought recently,it is currently a 348 win,I am interested in rebarreling it to a 416-348 improved,this has been done before,if all my info is correct,it should be a sweet shooting gun,& I will hunt Africa with it.
I have hunted buff with a 416 cal 410 gr bullet @ 2350 before,worked real well for me,the reduced recoil & a magazine full of rounds should make this an effective weapon.

quote:

I have hunted buff with a 416 cal 410 gr bullet @ 2350 before,worked real well for me,the reduced recoil & a magazine full of rounds should make this an effective weapon.

Heck Yeah!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
As far as usefulness on dg can't really see any difference between a 416 bullet and a. 411 or .423 bullet of the same weight at the same speed.

My 425 Express w/350X @ 2250 would almost always exit on brown bears, raking shots included!

With all the flat nose bullets available today you would have lots of bullets available.
What method will u use to keep the mag tube in place in recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
With all the flat nose bullets available today you would have lots of bullets available.
What method will u use to keep the mag tube in place in recoil.

Jim , that would be a nice easy shooting load. The guy I gave my last 416 Taylor to , uses the 350 gr Speer and TSX @ 2300-2350 fps and says it just dumps big bears. I always ran them 100 fps faster in the Taylor. But Thats just me. :-{

[
Jim , that would be a nice easy shooting load. The guy I gave my last 416 Taylor to , uses the 350 gr Speer and TSX @ 2300-2350 fps and says it just dumps big bears. I always ran them 100 fps faster in the Taylor. But Thats just me. :-{[/QUOTE]

I run them at 2450 also they work very well at that speed

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
[
Jim , that would be a nice easy shooting load. The guy I gave my last 416 Taylor to , uses the 350 gr Speer and TSX @ 2300-2350 fps and says it just dumps big bears. I always ran them 100 fps faster in the Taylor. But Thats just me. :-{

I run them at 2450 also they work very well at that speed[/QUOTE]

I ran my at 2350 fps for years until I got my brisket opened up, seeing as the rifle started as a 30-05 fwt it was pretty light. I toned the last loading down to get from getting booted so hard until my bones healed up. I sold it 3 yrs ago and now use and Old Ugly clone with 450gr Northforks about 2i50 fps. The Mauser stock is a little more user friendly than the 70 was.

I had a 404J built over the winter using a heavily tweaked VZ-24. I am shooting Barnes 400gr TSX FB and BNS Solids from its' 24 1/4" barrel using 80gr of VIT N550 with the TSX and 83gr with the Solid. Right at 2375 with the TSX and about 2435 with the Solid if my old Oehler M35P is correct. At 100yds the Solid is about an inch higher than the TSX. At 200 they make one 4-shot group about 2 1/2". The magazine will hold three down, and I can close the bolt on a fourth.

Both 416 Rigbys I have owned (Ruger & CZ) would shoot 400/410's about that fast and about that group size.

I'd be confident taking on anything with either cartridge loaded to those specs.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
With all the flat nose bullets available today you would have lots of bullets available.
What method will u use to keep the mag tube in place in recoil.

That will depend on how the mag tube is attached presently to the reciever,my gunsmith will make that determination,I have seen barrel bands on some & others just screwed into a dove tail in the barrel,I will get a new barrel installed,raising the weight of the gun to at least 9 lbs,which should also help with the recoil,making it a little easier on the mag tube.

I run my 26" 416 Taylor ~2400 fs with 400 gr bullets and ~2500 fs with 350's, both with RL15. I want to try CFE223 sometime this year, QL has some nice numbers for that powder, a bit better than RL-15.

As far as a "stopping" rifle goes, I think that falls into the "where the bullet is placed" category, but I would MUCH rather have a 50 cal/600 gr, than a 411-416 cal/400 gr...NOT trying to get the old argument going...I think there are a lot more things going on than just bullet weight/size when it comes to stopping a muffed shot bent on having you on.

quote:

ran my at 2350 fps for years until I got my brisket opened up, seeing as the rifle started as a 30-05 fwt it was pretty light. I toned the last loading

I got wacked hard on my first shot I then weighed it and added 1.5lbs of lead shot and glass bedding to bring the weight up 10lbs on the head slinged, scoped and loaded.

Shoots just fine now.

Some people like recoil I don't

quote:

Some people like recoil I don't

Not as much as I used to for sure!

I say go for it I will back you up with my .577NE single.
Nitro

Bill73
For hunting in THE USA with a Mod 71 I would prefer a .458 bore...

However if I was going to use the 71 in Africa for Elephant, I would go with the 416/348 improved.

Try to find the Wolf Publishing Company book,BIG BORE RIFLES and CARTRIDGES.
It has excellent articles on the 348 Winchester Ackley Improved, 416 Alaskan, 416-348 Improved, and the 450 Alaskan.

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
I say go for it I will back you up with my .577NE single.
Nitro

That should be quite the show,a 416 lever action backed by a 577 canon ha ha!!!!

Tony,
Why would you not prefer the 416 for within the USA?

I do have that book,Chuck375 sent me a copy no charge,waterrat also offered to send me a copy as well,such nice people here on AR
There is some very useful information in that book,I followed up with the machinist that did the work,unfortunately he is too busy now,so the search continues.

Some observations and questions.
Why .416"?
Would .410 or .423 be better due to bullets designed for lower impact velocity in expanding bullets?
.410 and .423 have bullets designed for a shorter tip to crimp. This can allow you more case capacity with the right case design.
I would look at the Turnbull cases to get an idea of what it takes to feed reliably and max oal.
Could a 444 with the extra OAL of 2.75" could get you in that same ballpark of weight and velocity?

Bal, sell the 71 and get a 475 Turnbull, all done and ready to rock. I shot one in Alaska...cool rifle!

If more than 2150 was needed, I'm sure the English would have done so 100+ years ago. This world of magnum mania and cartridge oneupmanship is rather nauseating.
Cal

quote:

If more than 2150 was needed, I'm sure the English would have done so 100+ years ago

No they would have done if they could have. The powders of that time period wouldn't allow it.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If more than 2150 was needed, I'm sure the English would have done so 100+ years ago

No they would have done if they could have. The powders of that time period wouldn't allow it.

More recoil equals slower recovery for second shots.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If more than 2150 was needed, I'm sure the English would have done so 100+ years ago

No they would have done if they could have. The powders of that time period wouldn't allow it.

More recoil equals slower recovery for second shots.

I guess I'm more worried about first shots. Flatter trajectory and more smack, what's not to like?

I'm sure that I could learn to hunt at 2150fps, it's just that I've spent my life on the other side, 2600-3100fps. However, I'm considering doing the 450grain .500AccRel at 2500fps. We'll see.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Some observations and questions.
Why .416"?
Would .410 or .423 be better due to bullets designed for lower impact velocity in expanding bullets?
.410 and .423 have bullets designed for a shorter tip to crimp. This can allow you more case capacity with the right case design.
I would look at the Turnbull cases to get an idea of what it takes to feed reliably and max oal.
Could a 444 with the extra OAL of 2.75" could get you in that same ballpark of weight and velocity?

Why 416?
well a 416-348 improved has been done before successfully,lots of bullets,right speed,the correct sectional density,good penetration,operates at about 45000.00 psi,& besides it just sounds cool,
444 operates at about 51000 psi,it would be too much pressure for a 71 or an 1886.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Bal, sell the 71 and get a 475 Turnbull, all done and ready to rock. I shot one in Alaska...cool rifle!

Biebs,
what makes you think I don't have one already ha ha,mine shoots great,I just want a lever action that gives me the correct sectional density & matches the ballistics of the old favorite 450-400 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If more than 2150 was needed, I'm sure the English would have done so 100+ years ago

No they would have done if they could have. The powders of that time period wouldn't allow it.

How then did rounds like the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 500 Jeffery get more ?

Cal, I think the oneupmanship started long ago.
I had a WR drop lock with 26" bbl and using the original Kynoch loads that it was regulated with it gave 2160fps, even though it was advertised as 2350fps.