Hi everyone,

In the loading data for the .500 A2 found in the reloading pages of this site, I see charges of IMR 4350 for a 600 gr Woodleigh listed up to 136 gr in weight. I've seen a 124 gr load listed elsewhere for supposedly 2400 fps, supposedly at an estimated 50,000 psi; as I recall from the A2 loading manual something like 63,800 PSI is max operating pressure (taken from memory; don't trust this number).

I've also read that you can't stuff enough IMR 4350 into the A2 case for you to run into problems with a 600 gr Woodleigh. Can anyone shed some light on the subject of what pressure can be expected at these various load levels?

That is Mitch Carter's data.
It is good data.
Agrees with my results.
However, to get that much IMR-4350 into the case requires a drop tube and compression, and the short and stubby lead-cored bullets:

600-grain Barnes "Original" RNSP with 136 grains of IMR-4350 gave 2604 fps in a 26" barrel.
That is reasonable with the stubby 600-grainer

You cannot do that much 4350 with the 570-grain TSX due to length of the bullet.

I prefer the longer monometals and a faster powder without need for a drop tube: RL-15 or Varget.

I save the 4350 powders for 700 to 750-grainers (milsurp and A-Max and such) and only go for 2150 fps with those.

Pressure?
I guesstimate from the A-Square manual or play with QuickLOAD.

That's very interesting. Can you give me a hint on the Varget loads with 570 gr Barnes and 600 gr Woodleigh bullets?

I have some 600 gr Woodleigh loads with 120 gr of IMR 4350 and some 570 Barnes Banded Solid loads backed by 110 gr of RL15. If all goes well, I'll chrono both loads this weekend.

I have not used IMR-4350, but I have used H-4350.

With a six inch drop tube, I could get 126 grains of H-4350 into the case, and the Woodleigh 600 grain bullets would compress the charge significantly.

Those loads gave me 2,300 fps.

I have since switched to RL-15, as it is more efficient in this caliber.

i told him to post in here, so Rob, Forrest, Rip and dave could answer him with facts...

Copied from the Reloading Forum and not meant to hijack the topic, only to add to the discussion:

"I spent last weekend shooting 647 grain milsurps with 100 grains of IMR4895 for 2230 average with little deviation. I was surprised to get that much speed with that load. I'm interested in 4320 & 4350 loads for milsurps if anyone has the data."

analog_peninsula,
Assuming you have the standard 500A2 throat,
your loads should be good midrange stuff.
Actual chrono depends on the rifle and powder lot!
570-grain TSX: Expect that 110 grains of RL-15 to give you about 2400 fps with a 23" barrel and add about 25 fps per inch of barrel longer than that.
Add a grain or two more for the Varget load equivalent, and even better temperature insensitivity.
But RL-15 is good stuff.
I am basing that on .509" 570-grain XLC experience,
but the .508"/TSX will give more blow-by and lower pressures and lower velocities, slightly,
I have only tried the TSX in the 500 Mbogo so far.
All my 500A2 loads with Barnes "X" were XLC.

You are certainly safe. Just need to peg your rifle and loads with a chronograph and go from there.

I type this stuff on the fly (at lunch) and would have to do a search here or look in my logs,
for the loads I have posted here before.

The Cup and Core Conundrum:
You can get more powder in and get highest velocities with them,
but they turn into birdshot or pancakes when they hit meat.
You have to settle on less than 2300 fps MV with Woodleighs or other cup&core, even if bonded, which the Barnes Originals and DGX ain't.

Or use the monometals and settle for 2400 to 2500 fps with 570-grainers ... or 2800 fps with 450-grain GSC HVs.

The 470 Mbogo will push 500-grain Barnes Originals at 2700 fps, but it is just a stunt.
So are Mitch's top loads with cup and core bullets in the 500A2.

Now, if there is ever a .510/570-grain North Fork, SP, FP, CP, that will be interesting.

Same for a .510/535-grain S&H Brass FN and Brass VeloHexploder!

The GCC HVs at 2800 fps sound fun, but I don't think that I'll be precision shooting my rifle from the prone position any time in the near future ...

Best powders are in the IMR3031 to Rel 15 burn rate. IMR4350 is too slow for the 500 A2. My 500 A2 likes IMR3031 and detests anything slower. I would start with 96gr of IMR4064 and work your way up with those 600gr Woodleighs. By the way, the A2 manual is full it. The pressures they quote as PSI are almost certainly CUP! 2450 fps in a 500A2 shooting 600gr pills is over 70 ksi and probably closer to 75 ksi with most powders. Not to worry though the case is so large and strong it probably won't show any pressure signs till you damage the rifle.

ScottS,
If you don't stop the assclowning, I am going to sic Rob on you.
You have been pretty coherent lately. What happen? Missed your coffee, or was it a prescription you forgot to get refilled?
Are you confusing the .495A2 CUP values with the 500A2 Piezo PSI values?
Now go get some suspenders and get that plumber's crack covered up.
That is disgusting!

ScottS is an utter and complete assclown, as RIP rightly says.

I can get 2,500 fps from my .500 A2 with 570 grain Barnes TSX and FN banded solids from 110-112.5 grains of RL-15.

How much RL-15 I have to use depends on the lot I am burning. Never have I had to go lower than 110 or higher than 112.5.

Those are mildly compressed loads, BTW, which is what I like.

I hunt DG with my .500 A2 - I don't shoot paper except to confirm my rifle's zero.

For hunting DG, such loads are unbeatable, IMHO.

mrlexma:

I just wanted to ask... I know you CAN do it but I was wondering why you load the 570 grains TSXs so hot? Wouldn't you get plenty of penetration at 2150 or 2200 fps and wouldn't it be easier on you and the bullets to do so? Just wondering.

Dave,

Here's why:





These buff died less than 20 yards and one minute apart.

You have to see how a 570 grain TSX bullet at 2,500 fps knocks a buffalo down to appreciate the force and power of it.

MR:

Great picture. Congratulations on a great hunt but don't the pictures of the bullets sort of illustrate what I mean. All the petals of the TSX bullets are simply sheared off at that velocity. Wouldn't you have had the same result if they were going a bunch slower with better bullet integrity?

Dave- Maybe,but Doubt it. Penetration at lower velocities will suffer significantly. Personally, I like a solid copper bullet design that will flatten out to about 40% more than the initial caliber, but retain all its integrity and penetrate as deeply as possible. Best of both worlds
Gee Scott, now you own a 500NE, a 500AHR and a 500a2. Tell your doc you need new meds. BTW Are you the poster boy for the new iphone sex offender locator? We are watching you!-Rob

Rob, I am not suggesting slowing them down to 45-70 levels just maybe to 500 NE levels, say 2100-2150 fps or so. That's what these 570 TSX were designed for. I confess to having NO experience with cape buffalo but I would bet that at the slower velocity you would get more than enough penetration from most any angle with much better bullet performance.

Dave,

I don't understand your point. Not only penetration, but shock is at work here. Four tons of muzzle energy type shock!

I can't imagine better bullet performance than this.

The TSX petals become secondary projectiles and enhance the destructive effect - and the shock, I think. Plus, not just the petals, but the TSX shank itself expands, as you can see. And let's don't forget that the bullet is already fifty caliber!

Based on my DG hunting experience, especially on buffalo, slower is definitely NOT better - as long as the bullet can handle faster, and the TSX can.

These bullets shattered bones and put fist-sized holes through the off-side rib cages and shoulder joints of these buffalo.

Based on my experience, at 2,500 fps, with a shot in the shoulder, a fifty caliber, 570 grain TSX bullet will incapacitate a buffalo.

Sorry, analog - did not mean to hijack.

It's all good; it's been an interesting and informative thread. Besides, your pictures ideally illustrated your argument.

TSC, GSX< Barnes X, XLC, and every other mono expanding bullet will blow off petals if hit too hard.. about 8-12% of bullet weight, turning it into a solid.

compare to a woodliegh soft .. hit at 2500fps it will SPLATTER


and under penetrate or shatter ..

about 2200+ impact MAY blow off petals from a big bore

bullet is a woody .585 750gr, 2350fps muzzle, 25 yards ... Rob hit an eland with it.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

I can't imagine better bullet performance than this.

The TSX petals become secondary projectiles and enhance the destructive effect - and the shock, I think. Plus, not just the petals, but the TSX shank itself expands, as you can see. And let's don't forget that the bullet is already fifty caliber!

MR:

It's hard to argue that the bullets "failed" since you got both buffalo right? However, the petals are not supposed to come off. The bullet is designed so that the petals expand creating cutting edges so that as the bullet travels through your quarry the rotation of the bullets cutting edges cause greater tissue damage. Jeff is right. If the petals sheer off, you are basically shooting a solid. The 570 grain TSX was designed for .500 NE velocity. I am not sure I believe in the "shock" theory but many do so perhaps it has some validity. I guess I am just trying to suggest that the result would have been the same but perhaps with even greater tissue destruction had the bullets been moving a bit slower and had functioned within their design parameters.

Anyway, good hunt and a great picture. I would love to do that someday but I suspect the rest of my big game hunting will be confined to bison.

Dave,

You are right that the petals are not supposed to come off.

But my experience indicates, and my point is, that the petal shearing does NOT adversely affect the 2,500 fps 570 grain TSX bullet's performance.

The petals do significant tissue damage as secondary projectiles. And the bullet hits like an artillery round!

And you are also right that after the petals sheer off, the bullet is a solid. Well, sort of a solid, anyway.

But it is NOT a bore diameter solid. It is more like an expanded soft nosed bullet than a bore diameter solid.

As a case in point, the bullets pictured above are .82 and .64 caliber at their widest nose diameters! And the .64 caliber bullet is that big notwithstanding that it has pounded through a Cape buffalo's shoulder joint!

Less velocity will work with this bullet, of course. But that's not my point. What I'm trying to tell you is that more velocity, at least up to 2,500 fps, makes this bullet work a damned sight better!

I'm not exaggerating when I say that with one shoulder shot, these loads will knock three quarters of a ton of Cape buffalo bull completely off his feet! I have done just that three consecutive times, even though one of the buff saw me and was wary and alert!

How does that old Monkees song go: I'm A Believer!

MR is working perfectly within the velocity envelope of the TSX. Perfect application!

Big bore monometal copper hollowpoints were not designed for double rifle velocity limits.
That is what Woodleighs are for, as jeffe demonstrated.

Whether TSX or GSC HV, you have most of the bullet left even if all the petals blow off, and they usually will with anything approaching 2600 fps impact.

The spinning of opened up petals attached to the bullet like a buzzsaw as wound mechanism is BS. Sales hype for the TBBC.

A TSX denuded of petals, yet nose-heavy from impact expansion of the remainder, makes a fine "primary" projectile,
accompanied by the "secondaries," of course.

Yes, the secondary missile effects of the released petals do add to permanent wound channelS (emphasis: plural!) ... more than any imaginary buzzsaw effect.
Cavitation elastically distances the tissue from the buzzsaw!

I found the old .509/570-grain XLC launched at 2400 fps MV to retain petals reliably at about 2300 to 2350 fps impact.
No major bone was struck, just ribs in the chest of a big bull bison.
They do not fully penetrate a mere bison chest at only 2300 to 2350 fps impact, with petals widely spread.
Recovered from offside under hide.
I love this picture of the two XLCs recovered after one shot in live animal at 50 yards, and second shot to dead animal at 25 yards:





I do wonder if the TSX has been made any different in the nose cavity, vs the old XLC.
I also think that the bigger bores are rougher on the "petals" but that is a good thing!

analog_peninsula:

The load used for the 570-grain Barnes XLC above was 110 grains of RL-15.

It gave a little over 2400 fps with the 570-grain XLC in my 23" 500A2 with 1:10" twist McGowen barrel, and throated long (for max COL 750-grainers at 2150 fps).

It gave a little under 2400 fps with the 570-grain GSC FN shown, in the same rifle.

The GSC however penetrated 8 feet of bison from rump to throat and exited.
Twice.
Once at 50 yards, second at 25 yards.
No recovery possible there.

And that is my comfortable, medium low-pressure, accurate load.
And I plan to keep my ass crack covered.

The standard 500A2 throat has 0.400" length of parallel-sided freebore.
Mine was lengthened to about .588" freebore length.
My 500 Mbogo has 0.500" freebore length.

Your mileage may vary.

MR's barrel is longer, throat shorter, and twist slower, than mine, I reckon (dead reckoning).

His velocities were higher with the same powder charge, despite the TSX instead of XLC difference.
Interesting to note the spread of 2.5 grains depending on lot of RL-15 also.

Let us know what you get with 110 grains of RL-15 and the 570-grain TSX.

Shock and Awesome penetration would be even better in .510 caliber than .395 caliber:

Does anyone have any data for XMP 5744 reduced loads? I have some 535 gr hard cast gc bullets (Cast Precision) that I'd like to shoot up; I tried a moderate load of IMR 3031, but I found the leading to be excessive.

I never tried that.
Since yours is fouling so badly with IMR-3031, it has no gas check, or you are going to fast, eh?

AccuLoadIII, now defunct, is good with reduced loads, and can generate some good numbers with XMP 5744, was verified realistic with .395 Tatanka.

Until some real load data materializes, just for fun, give me the length of that 535-grain cast bullet, if you wish, for my computational pleasure.

WOW!!! those are some HUGE buff!!!
Congrats!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Dave,

Here's why:





These buff died less than 20 yards and one minute apart.

You have to see how a 570 grain TSX bullet at 2,500 fps knocks a buffalo down to appreciate the force and power of it.

Dave- All I can say is the difference in performance of a good monometal bullet at 2150 vs 2600fps is DRAMATIC. Not theoretical, DRAMATIC. The animals react totally differently and you really see the difference. Punching a beer can sized hole through anything usually results in immediate termination. The Bigger the Bore and the faster it goes ( assuming you match the bullet to the velocity properly) ALWAYS is BETTER.-Rob

Gents re: petal spinning like blades

Agree with RIP

My maths isn't to up to scratch but has anybody worked out how much the bullet turns inside the animal over a distance of say 20 to 40inches.

I'm thinking it would be lucky to rotate or spin 1.5 to 2.5 times in an animal over that distance, or about the same as the rifling even less ?? ie... 1:15 or 1:20

You could hardly brag about fast slicing or rotating blades of death if the whole bullet only turns once or twice as it passes thru ?

regards
S&F

S&F,
Yes! Very true, besides the temporary cavity blowing the tissue away from the bullet!

I don't realy like to mess with the XMP-5744.
Inaccurate, but OK for plinking or close range squirrel loads.

Using lead bullets: I want them heavy and slow.
Not like the tougher monometal copper and brass, where the philosophy is opposite, faster and lighter works there.

My home-made 777-grain gas-checked "hardcast" works OK
with 100 grains of H4831SC in the 500 Mbogo, giving 1760 fps in a 25" barrel.

The 450-grain GSC bullet with 115 grains of Hodgdon's Benchmark gave 2835 fps in the same rifle, good accuracy.

Neither of those loads are maximum.







The 500 A2 is about 6 grains smaller in water capacity than the 500 Mbogo,
according to the calculated values of ammoguide.com ,
so you might want to reduce those loads by about 5 grains and work up.

However, the 570-grain TSX bullet shown above was loaded with 105 grains of Varget Extreme, in the 500 Mbogo.
It was only 2300-ish fps (2298 fps to be precise), a starting load.
That would be a good starting load in the 500A2 with that bullet and powder.
I expect to work up to at least 115 grains of Varget with the TSX 570-grainer.

Rob, mrlexma:

Excellent discussion. I appreciate your insight. mr, I also appreciate your fortitude! A 570 grain bullet at 2500 fps is just way beyond my level of tolerable recoil. Yo da man!

I have pretty much given up shooting deer. I just don't care for the taste of deer meat anymore so each year we try and take a bison to fill up the freezer. I am lucky enough to live in an area where that is pretty easy to do. Last year my son shot a nice cow that was under 30 months that had been finished on corn and was around 1,000 pounds on the hoof. As you may guess, the meat is excellent. The bison were running across in front of us from our left to our right and my son made a perfect heart shot with my .500 Jeffery and a 535 grain Woodleigh loaded to about 2250-2300 fps. There was no drama. The cow simply switched directions, ran about 20-30 feet, fell over, kicked a few times and died. Penetration was complete. Big bullets at modest velocity are great killers but I suspect that you both are correct that greater velocity produces a more dramatic result if you can find a bullet that matches your chosen velocity. In the end, given a reasonable choice of caliber, it's all about bullet placement right?

Anyway, great discussion. Analog, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Once again, no problems. The discussion has been very informative.

The cast bullets were Cast Performance heat-treated / gc 525 (not 535 as I posted earlier) gr. The length is 1.044 inches from flat tip to gc. I'm sure they're great bullets, but I think that I just pushed them too hard.

No RIP not confusing the 495 A2 with the 500 A2. Haven't you ever wonder how a cartridge with only 12 more grains of capacity manages to exceed the smaller case by several hundred FPS and at lower pressure!

By the way, do you really think that A2's manual is correct with regard to the 458 Win mag as the pressures published there are "CUP". They are supposed to be PSI.

The A2 manual is full of mistakes, and some dangerous loads too!!

Do whatever you like though.

Still haven't figured out how to squeeze 136gr of IMR4350 into any of my 500 A2 brass. Couldn't do it back when Mitch posted that "load" and cannot do it now. The reason is simple and has to do with density. There simply isn't enough volume in the case to fit that much powder I (you do realize that the density of a solid slug of IMR 4350 is only 95% that of water I hope). You can do the math but 142-7 = 135gr. Now add in some air as the powder isn't a solid perfecting fitting slug and there ain't no way, man sorry. Even better, if you could get that much in the case the chamber pressure would far exceed 80 ksi too OH BOY!

Alright enough reality, you may all go back to Fantasy Land.

Update:
I shot two reference loads and some others over my chronograph. My rifle is an A2 Hannibal with a Mag-na-ported 23" bbl. The two reference loads from the A2 Manual are:

26" bbl, 600 gr A2 Dead Tough bullet.
H-4895 106.0 gr for 2346 fps at 55,000 psi.
RL 15 113.0 gr for 2316 fps at 43,000 psi.

With a 600 gr Woodleigh bullet:
H-4895 106 gr for 2310 fps.
RL 15 113.0 gr for 2326 fps.

As you can see, my loads seem to track very closely with the A2 loading data; note my data is with a Woodleigh bullet rather than the A2 Dead Tough bullet.

Non-reference load results:

RL 15 108.0 gr 570 gr Woodleigh for 2298 fps.
RL 15 110.0 gr 570 gr Barnes Banded Solids for 2325 fps.
Varget 115.0 gr 600 gr Woodleigh for 2380 fps.
IMR 4350 120.0 gr 600 gr Woodleigh for 2222 fps.

FWIW I used 55gr of XMP5744( no filler) with some 635gr .50BMG pulls in the .500 a2. Pretty good accuracy at 50yrds and mild recoil.-Rob

analog_peninsula,
Thanks for the good data to add to my 500A2 load book.

Here is a QuickLOAD estimation for plinking:



No filler, of course.
Might find a good squirrel load somewhere in there.


Now for the assclown:

Scottie, you really need to get back on your medication.

The "propellant solid density" of IMR-4350 is 1.590 gm/cc.
That is more than 1.5 times the density of water at standard condition.
If you sprinkle some IMR-4350 into a cup of water, the granules sink.
Get it?

The gross water capacity of my 500 A2 brass is 149.5 grains.
(460 Wby necked up and once-fired in 500A2 chamber)
You better clean the wasp nests out of your brass,
and the cobwebs from between your ears.
Or quit googling for case capacities.

Talking about drop tubes may confuse you, so here is something you will understand:
Just pour 136 grains of IMR4350 directly from the scale pan into the 500A2 case,
whenever you gain possession of a cartridge case that is not imaginary.
Then apply your personal vibrator to the side of the case, not your privates.
No lubricant is needed!
Stay calm and hold it steady until the granules settle a wee bit.
Then ram home a 600-grain Woodleigh or Barnes Original RNSP.
Like a bullet!
Not a rectal suppository!

When you recover from all that excitement,
look in the A-square manual at the 458 Win Mag data.
The pressures expressed for the 465-grain bullet loads
are accurate in PSI.
They simply typoed the units from PSI to CUP.
However, they specified, right above the table, that the pressures were measured by "Piezo Transducer," NOT "Copper Crusher."

One typo does not invalidate the entire manual!

Quit your googly-ass-clowning!

For posterity, or posteriority when referring to an assclown:

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
No RIP not confusing the 495 A2 with the 500 A2. Haven't you ever wonder how a cartridge with only 12 more grains of capacity manages to exceed the smaller case by several hundred FPS and at lower pressure!

By the way, do you really think that A2's manual is correct with regard to the 458 Win mag as the pressures published there are "CUP". They are supposed to be PSI.

The A2 manual is full of mistakes, and some dangerous loads too!!

Do whatever you like though.

Still haven't figured out how to squeeze 136gr of IMR4350 into any of my 500 A2 brass. Couldn't do it back when Mitch posted that "load" and cannot do it now. The reason is simple and has to do with density. There simply isn't enough volume in the case to fit that much powder I (you do realize that the density of a solid slug of IMR 4350 is only 95% that of water I hope). You can do the math but 142-7 = 135gr. Now add in some air as the powder isn't a solid perfecting fitting slug and there ain't no way, man sorry. Even better, if you could get that much in the case the chamber pressure would far exceed 80 ksi too OH BOY!

Alright enough reality, you may all go back to Fantasy Land.

ScottS, formerly known as POSeur, and ASS CLOWN:
In his previous internet incarnations here, he has gone by many handles.
I suggested "POSeur" once, and he adopted it,
registered the handle.
What a clown!
Rob suggested "ass clown" after that,
and he clowned right along, registered that handle as his own!
That one has stuck, maybe not in his registration,
but certainly in the minds of many: ASS CLOWN
His modus operandi is pictured "below."
I finally found the perfect signature pic for ScottS,
back at his old tricks.

Scottie, this one's truly dedicated to you: ASS CLOWN



Would he dare re-register now?
Any "suggestions" for a new handle?

How about "SugJester" ... That's weak, but appropriate, weak.

Ron,

I like it!! Unfortunately, I feel that I am not the only "attention whore" here are at AR so I don't feel I can claim that pic all for myself.

A-P, never questioned A2's velocities only the published units for pressure with those velocities. Your Rel15 must be MUCH slower than MRLexma's as your results are far slower than his 2500 fps with 110 to 112.5 gr of Rel 15.

Enjoy your rifle the 500's are great tools and should be great fun.

Out of curiosity, I took a case made from .460 Wby brass and filled it up to within 1/8" of the top with IMR 4350. Without any significant effort, I was able to fit 129.0 gr of powder in the case. I'm not sure of the percentage of compression afforded by a drop tube, but I seriously doubt stuffing an additional 3 or 4% more powder in the case would be impossible.

There is absolutely no question in anyones mind that ScottS is the "assclown". Pathetic loser that he must be in reality.-Rob