Why is 2,150 fps so magical with a 458 cal 500 grainer? Also there seems to be some confusion if it is important to start at the muzzle with 2,150...or hit the animal with (at least) 2,150 fps.

I've heard a lot of people quote 1000 foot pounds minimum at the animal for whitetail as a "guide". But this 2,150 fps seems like a "rule" on this board and elsewhere. Sometimes it's said by the same people who say 375 H&H is OK for elephant. Is it just penetration based? I really don't know, but interested to learn!

Do the 416's, 375's or others have a minimum speed to be considered OK for the big 5 in your book or others?

Thanks!

I was always to believe 2300 fps with 500 grain bullets was the magical number with the right bullet. But I could be mistaken....again.

Steve

Most figure if it has worked for over a 100 years with the Brit (450-476) NE rounds.............

Keith

In my experience a 480 gr to 500gr. .458 bullet, at 2050 to 2150 fps will give proper penetration on buff and elephants.

With the 450gr North Fork Flat Points at @ 2200fps I get even greater penetration.

Much below 2000FPS and you might well worry about insufficient penetration, much over 2300fps and many softs start to disintegrate and average weight rifle recoil becomes unpleasant for many people. 2150 is half-way between those "extremes".

The 'magic' about 2150 as a velocity is that it gets you 5000 ft. lbs. energy at the muzzle with the 500 grain bullet. Just a 'number' in my book.

quote:

buckeyeshooter
one of us
Posted 7 May, 8:44 PM Hide Post
The 'magic' about 2150 as a velocity is that it gets you 5000 ft. lbs. energy at the muzzle with the 500 grain bullet. Just a 'number' in my book.

Which coloring book was that?

Ray has said something about the 500 grain bullet being magic on lions, at 2150 fps. Something about the OAL bullet surface, coupled with diameter, and velocity, causing hydrodynamic shock.

All of this is a bunch of bullshit, to verify that it's worked for 100 years, and, a LOT of dead animals, and, saved a lot of hunters asses...

Friend of mine recently had a chance to shoot a REALLY nasty beefalo, that would charge, and horn trucks, in the 1500 plus class. First barrel of the 450 Nitro knocked it down, something a lot of lesser calibers wouldn't do.
It got RIGHT back up, but, the second barrel went off less then a second afterward, and brain shot, dead animal.

I think that's the essence of the load and velocity: it knocks stuff down, and, the second barrel can be used very quickly for followup, provided you know what you are doing...

S

I agree with Hog Killer. The magic is 100 years of hunting experience in Africa and India where a 500 grain bullet traveling 2150 fps was proven time and time again to be effective on the biggest and most dangerous game. Just a "number", history would suggest otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
In my experience a 480 gr to 500gr. .458 bullet, at 2050 to 2150 fps will give proper penetration on buff and elephants.

With the 450gr North Fork Flat Points at @ 2200fps I get even greater penetration.

This is correct. The nominal velocity of the 450's was 2150 and 2175, 2125 for the 470. Few made it to that standard since barrels on real riffles were most always shorter than thosed used to acheive nominal advertised velocities. Solid bullets were the standard.

Feild velocities of 2050 or 2100 or so with a 480gr bullet were more like normal, typical...

.458" and 500grs of solid at 2150 will do the job provided the bullet does its job.

JPK

quote:

500grs of solid at 2150 will do the job provided the bullet does its job.

That is the relevant part. There was a time when anything much over 2150fps would tear up the bullets that were available, reducing the desired outcome significantly, and, under 2150fps with large caliber bullets would not give the desired penetration depth. Limiting muzzle velocity to as close to 2150 ensured that hits out to 50 paces or so, would not break up the bullet and would hopefully result in sufficient penetration. With the velocity drop at 100 paces, there would be time for a second shot, should insufficient penetration occur.

Today we have bullets from numerous manufacturers that will get the job done from 1600fps to over 4000fps and the illogical "magic" speed no longer exists. Observe the impact speed window that is recommended by the bullet manufacturer and forget about urban legends (jungle legends?) of magic speeds that cannot be / must be exceeded.

,.,.,.When shooting at 100 yrds / m , or less. 2100-2200 fps wether with a 400 gr 41-42 cal bullet or a480-510 gr. 45-48 caliber bullet, of soft point or solid const. Just seems to work well ...And be easy enough to shoot.......I think 2400 fps is more a shocking velocity and above .. The higher velocity tears and blows stuff up and out of the way better as long as the bullet behaves ......Both work but for me and the game I currently hunt , I like mono metal bullets that go fast.....

Things aren't much different than 60 years ago in Taylor's time. It is just a fact that about 5000 ft-lbs of energy is needed to reliably knock down big stuff, most of the time anyway.

Which is why, for example, the early 458 WM's bombed.

The 416's reach around 5,000 foot-pounds with a 400 grain bullet at 2,400 fps. Like the 500 grainers at 2,150 fps. By the way, the 416 Rigby, as the .45 caliber nitro-express calibers, do it at very low pressures.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Which is why, for example, the early 458 WM's bombed.

So what was the original 458 WM loading?

Great reading everyone, thanks!

2150 with a 500gr bullet...

in reality, it was the highest speed a 450 nitro (before 45's were banned) with the heaviest bullet, at the stated pressure, with the powders available, in a double rifle, with a comfortable margin for safety both in pressure and in killing power.

Also, in normal weight rifles, this is a high recoil level for most users


the original 458 win load, which it had no problem with, was 500gr at 2150... in fact, if it didn't make this, why are all the articles talking about sudden failure of old trusty written AS BEING SURPRISED rather than "this piece of junk failed, again"

Will, You might be confused with the great record of the early 458s and then the problems with the AMMO in the 70s and 80s, 20 years after the rifle was released.

The PROBLEM with the AMMO in 458 was many fold, begining with winchester and others compressing powders GREATLY, the powder being damaged over time and heat, poor storage of ammo in africa, and use of visibily "longer" loads, as the bullets had walked out.

Of COURSE if one jamps s**tty loads into a rifle, performance will be, well, interesting.

stainless,

The 458 WM was indeed intended to be 2150 fps with the 500 gr. bullet and was an instant success because most of the nitro express cartridges fell from production. When the 458 WM came out with corresponding relatively cheap rifles (the Mod. 70) things were rosey but so much of the ammo suffered from caked powder reportedly due to the highly compressed charge of powder.

The reports started surfacing about bullets "bouncing off" elephants and the poor reputation of the 458 WM was born, and still widely, though incorrectly, exists today.

It is not that the present day 458 WM is not sufficient nor that it can't be loaded to 2150 fps.

My point was that when the old, compressed 458 WM ammo was spitting out their bullets at much reduced velocities below the design value of 2150 fps it obviously didn't rise to the necessary energy level of 5000 ft-lbs and hence the bullet penetration was poor.

Folks like Tony Sanchez-Arino, Ganyana (sorry!), and others still write about the 458 Wm being poor or marginal. Bad reputations live on, underservedly in this case.

As much mystery that is alwways seems to be applied to this or that cartridge, a 500 gr. ~458 bullet going at ~2100 fps is the same wherther it is coming out of a 470 NE or a 458 WM.

Guess all those eles and buffs have been cheated by the criticised 458 winchester. I see no problem with 2150 with a proper bullet out to 75 paces or so. Bigger and faster might be more comforting to have in the tall grass, but the winnie is capable. R.

quote:

Why is 2,150 so magical?

Several reason actually.....and all good ones!

1. Historical precident....it was proven to work

2. shootability.....it was about all the recoil most could handle

3. Bullets of the time .....that's what they would tolerate without coming apart badly.

There's a reason why the 460 Weatherby has not cleaned up the action!

Basically your duplicating the ballistics of the 450#2 and 470NE with .458 diameter bullets, 500gr bullets, sd >.3 and 2150fps. This was shown to work extremely well on large dangerous game by an untold number of hunters. Yes that calculates to 5000ft-lbs but its the sd that gives the penetration. Thats what the 458 win mag was designed to duplicate. It's the combo of bullet weight, sd and velocity that is magic.
BTW, its also well know that 500grs, sd>.3 and 2400fps works significantly better. i.e the 450 Ackley. Next step up is the 500a2. Bigger hole concept.-Rob

No magic. More like trial and error. The Brits simply learned that a certain amount of cordite dumped in a big case would produce 2,100-2,200 fps with 480-500 grain bullets at low pressures safe for double rifles and without excessive pressures even in the tropical heat.

Oh, and they found out it worked on thick skinned DG, too.

GS,
I don't recall saying that, and if I did it was with tongue in check. If you must quote me then show the quote, and what the hell is hydrodynamic shock? I never heard that word before, so apparantly never use it. You have me mixed up with someone else or you spewing your own bullshit.

I shoot my .470 at 2020 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet as most that know me will tell you! that said 2150 has been the accepted velocity because the old timers said so and proved it to be through years of use. Now that was the quoted velocity of the day, but in those days chronographs were rare indeed and the factorys quoted 2150 and rather loosly I might add. more likely most of that old stuff was going a modest 2000 plus a little.

I do believe the "cross section" of bullet makes a difference on big ugly animals, and that a flat nose bullet adds killing power to a RN version all things equal, and thats not BS.and to say that is bull shit is to say that a 60 caliber does not kill any better than a 40 caliber at 2150 or whatever, now that is bull shit, the bigger bores do kill better on Buffalo, Lions, elephant etc..I don't use them because I don't like that kind of recoil.

2150 is not magical at all. The old 4 and 8 bores did not reach 2150 fps but they sure stopped a lot of africa's Big 5. They did reach about 1500 fps with heavy round balls and conicals. I think 1500 is more magical. The 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh and 500 S&W have all taken the Big 5. They certainly don't do 2150. Randy Garrett's 540 grain 45-70 load has taken the Big 5 doing 1550. The faster it's going, the faster it stops when hitting animal tissue.

I did a test with the 45-70/458 Win Mag in wet newspaper.
(458 Win) 550 grain hardcast WFNGC at 2000 - 42"
(45-70) 550 grain hardcast WFNGC at 1500 - 60"

Because that's all those antiquated calibers could attain at the time with cordite and substandard bullets without braking up. If you look at the Study by Portuguese Hunter Jose Pardal, you'll see those old Kynochs were pretty frangible.

Give me a 450-500gr quality bullet@2400plus and it'll outpenetrate the same projectile @2150. If memory serves right, tests conducted by one of our own forumites (whose name escapes me) showed the 460 Weatherby@2600 beat them all. 2150 WORKS and works well, but there are better. jorge

Buffalo and elephants aren't made out of wet newspaper.

When sighting performance in newsprint, the dia of the wound channel should also be sited with every inch of penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Because that's all those antiquated calibers could attain at the time with cordite and substandard bullets without braking up. If you look at the Study by Portuguese Hunter Jose Pardal, you'll see those old Kynochs were pretty frangible.

Give me a 450-500gr quality bullet@2400plus and it'll outpenetrate the same projectile @2150. If memory serves right, tests conducted by one of our own forumites (whose name escapes me) showed the 460 Weatherby@2600 beat them all. 2150 WORKS and works well, but there are better. jorge

It is magic because we know it works and you can bet your life on it. While I do not disagree with jorges statement above I will say that more penetration than the "Magic" load will give is really unneeded unless you demand that your rifle is capable of killing several trees behind your elephant or to kill an unattended buffalo behind your target animal. To get that added and unneeded additional penetration you will have to put up with a lot more recoil in a caliber that already has more recoil than most can handle in an emergency. Why pay for what you don't need? Just my humble opinion.

465H&H

Lets just say that 2150 FPS is "comfortable" with any big bore. I don't know if its magical but its a good place to be.

2150 is only a figure that's used to regulate bigger Double Rifles and that's it. Don't know how they arrived at it but that's the standard for a little while now.

2150 fps equated to a safe working pressure for break-open actions - not magic performance on game.

The "magical" ballistics are a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps.

IMO all of the above posts have covered the this subject very well, I'll just put in my 2 cents. It's always sweet to read a post where most of the discussion is full of FACTS and solid information, thanks.
We're blessed today with supreme bullets and powders that are more stable in hot weather and can get the job done better than 100 yrs ago.
You read of Kynoch's reported velocities of 2150 with 450's etc then you read about the 30 inch barrel that said velocities were attained and you have to wonder did some of this ammo even have 4,000 ft./lbs of energy? Well bottom line, those 450's and 470's screeming out of 24 inch barrels were pressed to be doing 2020 fps with inferior bullets (compared to today) and they STILL GOT THE JOB DONE. Call it magic, but 2150 is still a magical number the ammo manufactures have left etched in our minds today.

As has been stated .,. It works WELL , most of the time and is controllable... When I,m stakeing my butt on the line I don,t want any less velocity with the animals I currently hunt...I would prefer a 480 gr bullet tho.....Give little stubby all the help it can get......,. 2150 fps with a 400 gr bullet is 4000 ft lbs also and it has proven to work well .,., It seems to be the goal of alot of 45/70 shooters....It makes the win mag a pussy cat to shoot and can help with accurate iron sight practice shooting .,.,But thats another topic...