Field Report

This morning I got a quick field report from our very own cnm123.......... Chris is still in Tanzania currently and will be home next week........

Don't have the full details, but here is what he sent................

quote:

Michael
I thought I would share some pictures I made a bad shot on a buffalo hit the liver. The bull ran 100yds and died in 5 minutes. No excuse for bad shooting but the pictures show how the 6 blade tore the liver apart. I was using 370 gr 416 raptors and every animal I lung shot basically had a fart and their lungs came out the exit hole. I am still in Tanzania

No doubt about what happened here, and one can clearly see how the blades ripped that liver apart.........

Congrats Chris, and hope to hear more soon, safe travels.........

Michael

Now that's what I call liver damage!

Wow, just wow!!! Send this to terry wee wee! The tissue damage and expansion of the petals can not be denied. Perfect star pattern. This should end all debates and shut haters up. Awesome. CEB kool aid drinker, I am

If that isn't the most definitive evidence of the blades enhancing trauma, I don't know what would be.

Great photo!

Being that impact velocity of solids affects terminal performance a tipped solid has some merrits methinks.
Thinking of the Raptor design with its switch point of hollow point and solid point design I see it as not much room for improvement but here goes. Safari solids and safari Raptors have a higher weight than the regular ESP Raptor and loaded one way with great success. The only way that might make a diference in the solid one is to have a tip and that would require a non functioning hollow point to mount the tip that I have mentioned before but I was musing on the idea of the ESP Raptor that is a double tiped option and symmetrical so only one load required for solid end and functional hollow point end with the same POI that will be of great importance to some. A two color tip system would be needed to easily distinguish loaded rounds. I think this theoretical bullet and band design should allow loading longer for use without tips if desired. A hollow point tip insert design should allow break up of the tip to allow the solid end to function flawlessly while impacting at a higher velocity for greater damage and penetration. This design would eliminate any potential snafu with any authorities being labeled as solid since both ends posess a hollow point. What do you think?

I think that such a design would improve things.

However, a true long range raptor needs to have an optimal, yet reasonably short nose ogive and cannot get to .330-.400 BC with the 13-degree shoulder. that should provide similar trajectory out to about 250 yards. Even beyond that differences would be in inches and not in feet.

The idea looks sound to me -- if the nose post hole were small enough and truly non-functional. It would be a bummer to find out that a solid 'opened up' from that little hole on meeting an elephant femur.

Thanks. I think I would want the safari solid for pachyderms if I ever got so lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Thanks. I think I would want the safari solid for pachyderms if I ever got so lucky.

Yep, CEB Safari Solids, GSC FN Solids, or NF FP Solids.

from another thread

quote:

Enjoy the day gents, I am headed to the range, I have pressure work projects going on and having good fun with some of my projects I have put off for years............. (Do not let this get out in public but I am actually doing some needed work in some "Rat Calibers", but if you let this get out, I will deny it.....HEH HEH)

Variety is the spice of life. We still have a 338 out in the field that can always benefit from a little more info. And while we didn't see any 375's at your range, they make a nice rat gun, too, especially with the newish 235gn Extended Raptor or 250 GSC.

BUSTED........

HEH.... Yes, it appears I have been found out, cheating on the side with some rat guns...

Oh my, What is the World Coming to?



With most of the heavy lifting done here with the big bore terminals, and much of the load data and pressures complete for the B&Ms (with the exception of trying new powders and new bullets) I am able to get to some of my other projects, some of which does include some rat calibers/rifles, used mostly for local Zombie control....... Currently I am doing some 223 Rem research, pressures and data with the 50 Raptors and some with those 40 Raptors too..... Wicked little Zombie busters these are..... Moving up a bit in calibers to 308 Winchester, some data with both 100 and 130 ESP Raptors, which I believe will prove to be extraordinary Zombie busting machines.... Not to mention, I have a lot of guys around here hunting deer and pigs with both these cartridges, so time needs to be spent getting some proper pressures on some of these loads for the "Deer" boys........

And, in addition to these, I want to do some 30/30 and 45 Colt work, both of my Winchester M94s are now set up to work with the Oehler and PTs to get load data and pressures.... Some might remember the mighty 100 ESP Raptor I ran at 3000 fps in the 16 inch 30/30??? Well now, that might have been slightly over max pressure for one of these rifles... HEH...... I did a load yesterday, same H-4198 powder, only 36 gr of it, average 2780 fps, but at 52800 PSI.... Slightly OVER max in a M94 I think..... Whew, don't really want to know what 39 gr and 3000 fps is!!!!!!!! Funny, the gun works great no matter what you send through it, no sticky levers, nothing... But that is way way over pressure I assure you... On the lever guns I set a max pressure at or around 45000 PSI.......Most Factory ammo I had here tested out to slightly under 40000 PSI..... While I am just getting started here with 30/30 I have been able to get to 2600 fps with the 100 Raptor and stay under or around 45000 PSI..... Mind you, my gun is 16 inches of barrel.... I have a few more of these, and will try and get some data in longer barrels same loads as well.. Another thing I discovered yesterday, this little rifle has a set of Williams peep on the rear, which I remove the peep part and have basically a big ghost ring, this rifle shoots the best of any iron sights I have ever shot in my life, and I can see them!!!!!!! I could not believe I was shooting so well, everything in a hole, with irons.... And me shooting to boot.... Lots of fun.... These little 16 inch slab sided guns would make pretty good little around the house rifles for Zombies too I reckon.........

45 Colt is sorta a big bore don't you think? LOL........ I have rifle set up, but just have not got to it quite yet, again today I will be working some 30/30 stuff, and perhaps the next few days work on the 45 Colt stuff...

It really is pretty good fun, I have to admit.... I love my big bore rifles, as we all well know.. but shooting these little guns is just so easy to do... For instance doing the pressure work with wires hooked up to the rifle, there just is no recoil that jerks the wires and no need to worry about holding the guns so tight to keep the wires from breaking connections... amazing.. HEH.......

I am thinking of some other projects as well in the near future....... One such project is currently going on, but I will let that remain a Top Secret one for the time being until completed, but I will say this, it does involve some big bore bullets, by one of our PREMIER bullet makers...... All are solids, one in 416, one in 458, and one in .500, so I have not left my big bores just quite yet......... LOL.........

Michael

I forgot all about the 45 Colt and those new pistol Raptors! I carry a little Rossi 92 with me everywhere I go and those bullets would be great. Hurry up and get some good data on the 45 Colt.

Sam,

I just settled on a load of 21 grains of 2400 and fed 155, was giving me around 1330 out of a 7.5 Ruger, I am curious to see the pressure testing but I believe I am well below max.

The one powder which I can not find that has been a performer in the 44 and .475 as the "velocity" powder has been 4100/enforcer I think I could get 1500 out of this Ruger with that powder.

Boomie,

I would think it would require a very small diameter hole in the meplat for the tip shank and it would require the center HP within the tip to assure it obliterated on impact.

Seems like it would be a fine balance between a sufficient shank diameter to maintain some integrity of the tip within the magazine and not to large a shank/hole diameter to inhibit the FN solid performance of the bullet.

I seem to recollect Sam working on a tipped solid a few years ago, perhaps he'd share his results...

Season's, Yes your load sounds light and I would think with this light of a bullet a much faster powder would be needed. Michael will work it out for sure so we don't have to.

Capo,
Yes I tried gluing a tip onto the #13 solids but it spun off as the glue could not hold. That little tip was spinning for minutes on the floor in front of the bench. Showed just has fast bullets are spinning. Maybe I'll try that again with a little tiny tail glued into a little hole like you are talking about. A tip on a solid would have to blow off really fast to be sure it didn't turn a flat nose into a round nose and make it tumble.

Sam,

Do you recollect whether during the Talon Tip development whether the original smaller diameter round HP BB#13 bullets without the wall score lines would expand or not?

I seem to recollect that they didn't until the score lines were added, and then not reliably until the HP diameter was increased with score lines added.

And of course the tips required the small HP as well to assure they'd obliterate upon impact.

Perhaps I need to drag out the laptop and start some historical searching...

The tip I described has a hollow point like the ones already made by CEB to ensure destruction on impact. The hole does not need to be that deep or wide. Just pressure fit inside and then you could gain significant impact velocity beyond 50 yards and same POI with the same load. There is almost no downside if you decide to use without tip installed. You could take an existing CEB hollow point tip and make a custom hole and trim down the post as needed.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Season's, Yes your load sounds light and I would think with this light of a bullet a much faster powder would be needed. Michael will work it out for sure so we don't have to.

4100/Enforcer should be the right burn rate but we will see..

At least Michael will know where the pressure will be!

I know the Barnes XPB data showed a max charge of 20 gr. with there 225 and the base to crimp groove length is identical to the CEB 240 Raptor, so I guess I will just have to be patient for the test work....

Boomie,

I have a bunch of the original 460gr .500 Safari Raptors, cut before the tip design and HP diameter was established for the current 450gr .500 Safari Raptors. The production W Talon Tips will not work on my Raptors unless I reduce the diameter of the Tip's seating shank.

What I thought would work properly would be to use a HP diameter no larger than that of the the 460gr bullet with no internal HP scoring lines, and a HP depth identical to the tip shank length. Of course shape of the current W Talon Tip would work but would require the shank diameter to be reduced.

I know you're thinking about a modified ESP Raptor but I believe the most viable testing platform would be with a modified Safari Solid.

Guess I need to grab the laptop and look up the early test work on the tipped Raptors.

Yes, using existing material would speed up the proof of concept. If you took the Safari Solid and tinkered a non function HP with a HP tip you can get a good idea on impact velocity differentials. The lighter ESP Raptor would have the largest gain due to the more lightweight projectile to begin with but the FPS would be about identical to the Tipped VS non Tipped ESP so that is a more known quantity. I estimate you could gain about 150 FPS impact velocity in the tipped solid VS non tipped at say 100 yards. The bonus is the one load and same POI.

I spent some time today, actually yesterday now, perusing the Terminal Bullet Performance thread from page 1 through page 182; the remainder will await later today…

While perusing I ran into some interesting conversation back in August 2011 regarding ‘tipping the BBW#13 solids’, some conversation questioning why even tip the BBW#13 HP’s, and shortly thereafter Michael’s comment, “Tip or No Tip? Really I can't see a downside, so tips will be available. And talk about response time--I posted this and sent to Dan at CEB when, Tuesday or so?”

Also contained within Michael’s post was, “Here are the new tips with the shorter studs and new design!”

Excerpted from page 182…
Anyway this photograph kinda fits within our current conversation regarding “tipping the Safari Solids” – Visually, picture the tip of the pictured large caliber Talon Tip having a shank diameter similar in size to the small shank pictured on the small caliber Talon Tip.

I reckon the question comes down to the smallest HP and tip shank diameter that would assure the tip would obliterate from the shank allowing that specific caliber Safari Solid function identical to the “standard Safari Solid” WHILE assuring the tip would not separate from the shank from any ‘recoil pounding’ within the magazine.

Perhaps the correct rifle/cartridge combo to determine the optimum HP/tip shank diameter to caliber ratio would be to use the 50 B&M… I believe it is the sharpest recoiling of the B&M cartridges (though I haven’t fired the 500 B&M) – at least it’s the hardest of Leupold rifle scopes…

Ah well, in Michael’s words – it’s time to roost!

Boys.....

I am going to pass on the tips for solids..... Why? I know how sensitive they are to anything going wrong and upsetting that first stage of impact..... While I am sure something could be done, as with the HP Tips that currently are available, something would have to be done to hold them in place, and that means moving metal... I don't like that. Glue won't work, just too much torque on the bullets..... And, if you did get something to stick I would be concerned about that initial impact not busted completely out and causing instability..... ?????? The use of these type bullets are normally very short range too...... I don't think I would mess with damn near perfection as I see it currently........

M

I agree with Michael 100%. Even though you might gain some velocity with the tips you stand a chance of going backward in terms of performance. Like Michael said why fix perfect. Solids need to perform every time and go straight.

The Safari line is as close to perfection as you can get. I saw a potential in the symmetrical tipped ESP Raptor version using HP ogive tips. Perhaps the tip material would need tweaking but if there is no interest it is merely hypothetical. An interesting test would be what % of diameter can withstand impact velocity up to 3k fps.

Sometimes you guys are no fun at all!

Update on the 235 gr ER Raptors I loaded for a buddy's 375 HH to take on a trip to Namibia this month.

I got the load mentioned a couple of pages earlier for Trapper at CEB: 75 gr R15.

I started at 69 grains and worked up to 75. The first thing I noticed was that the bullets had to be seated to the top of the last cut band to fit in the magazine of a Winchester M70. In the picture posted of the CEB load, it is loaded to the second cut. Because of that I watched close for pressure signs. The 74 and 75 gr loads were heavily compressed.

None of the loads had any sticky bolt lift, and 75 gr started showing slight primer cratering. The 74 gr load gave .3 inch 3 shot group at 100 yards, so we settled on that

Now the problem. As I was loading the batch with 74 grains, I noticed a few looked longer in the ammo holder than the others. I re-measured them and they were 15 hundredths or so longer than when I seated them I measured each one after seating, and they were now longer than when first measured? I ran one through the seating die again and when I pulled it out, sure enough the bullet slowly pushed out again until the crimp engaged the first band.

Over the next week almost half of them would do the same, so at this late date my buddy will just use the TSXs which we have both used with excellent results many times.

I'm going to try some with 4064...max load is about 5 grains lower, so hoping that will be enough to solve the "bullet creep" problem.

From what I've learned from Michael, Sam, and Ron's (RIP) reloading is that compressed loads require a crimp - which you've done - and you can trim the case neck back to accommodate the COAL you require for your magazine...Crimp holds bullet from moving forward and compressed powder keeps the bullet from moving backwards. Fairly simple solution...

I was thinkering around with a few tip ideas for the solid end but in the end they may be impractical or too small a niche. I do think it is possible but that may not be the issue. Woodleigh has their hydro cap but that is to solve the feeding issue and not the impact velocity. Does anyone know what material they use? Seems that material just blows off on impact.

I was digging through some of my photos and found this great picture of when I did the 45 ACP testing, now we all have seen this, but after seeing the shredded liver image, I though we need more proof for the non believers!

Good write up about advancing your lever-gun including CEB in this months issue of Successful Hunter, with one caveat he complained about velocity in the 44 mag but used the wrong powder!
http://www.riflemagazine.com/m.../PDF/sh71partial.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
I was digging through some of my photos and found this great picture of when I did the 45 ACP testing, now we all have seen this, but after seeing the shredded liver image, I though we need more proof for the non believers!

Here is another one........ I would say they look pretty close..... Some say there is no relationship to test medium and animal tissue..........

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
Great write up about advancing your lever-gun including CEB in this months issue of Successful Hunter, with one caveat he complained about velocity in the 44 mag but used the wrong powder!
http://www.riflemagazine.com/m.../PDF/sh71partial.pdf

I have been working on the 30/30 lever guns for a week now every day.... With 100 and 130 ESP Raptors.... Still have some work tomorrow as well....... Pressure and load data stuff........

Good Article, I have not read it completely yet, did some skimming.....

M

X marks the spot!

Keith

Some people--------say a lot of'Things'.
Many of those 'things' have a distinctive smell.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Some people--------say a lot of'Things'.
Many of those 'things' have a distinctive smell.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
I was digging through some of my photos and found this great picture of when I did the 45 ACP testing, now we all have seen this, but after seeing the shredded liver image, I though we need more proof for the non believers!

Here is another one........ I would say they look pretty close..... Some say there is no relationship to test medium and animal tissue..........

"A picture is worth a 1,000 words", in this case pictures.

Definitely bears repeating...

Talk about a "shooting star" lol.

No doubts at all what a Raptor is capable of.............Those of us that have used them in the field
and saw what they do......... Well, its UGLY, but good............

Tanz, maybe you will appreciate this, you are always talking long range, posted this on B&M, but maybe should do so here too....

450NE has a 18 inch 458 B&M, he is getting ready for a moose hunt, doing some work with his rifle.... He is using the 250 Socom, running 2900 fps.......... This is todays 3 shot group....... At 300 Yards




He took 1 Shot at a Target, and one Shot at a Water Jug... Water jug exploded..... Here is his ONE SHOT AT 400 yards....




If I done that at 400 Yards, I might NEVER SHOOT AGAIN and call it a day, as I would never be able to do that again...

HEH.......
Michael

I'll be damned, I just turned us to PAGE 300..............

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I'll be damned, I just turned us to PAGE 300..............

Yep - means I can close out Part 6 of the PDF files when we start page 301!