I know you guys are going to think I am crazy but lately I have been wondering if all the reasons Jack Lott had for designing the .458 Lott have now been eclipsed by more recent developments in powder and bullet technology. We now have super bullets from Barnes, Cutting Edge Bullets, Woodleigh, and North Fork and modern powders that make these bullets stone cold killers. If a meager little 45-70 or 450 Marlin will now shoot through a bison, why build anything bigger than a plain old .458 Win Mag. Have we come full circle on the Lott (or the 450 Dakota/Rigby)?

the 458 AR beats the lott in a standard length case, and now, with CEB, kills like a cannon!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I know you guys are going to think I am crazy but lately I have been wondering if all the reasons Jack Lott had for designing the .458 Lott have now been eclipsed by more recent developments in powder and bullet technology. We now have super bullets from Barnes, Cutting Edge Bullets, Woodleigh, and North Fork and modern powders that make these bullets stone cold killers. If a meager little 45-70 or 450 Marlin will now shoot through a bison, why build anything bigger than a plain old .458 Win Mag. Have we come full circle on the Lott (or the 450 Dakota/Rigby)?

You left out the Watts and it started it all, Jack just had to satisfy his ego to have his name on something.

When it is all said and done, the Lott STILL out performs the WM

At the time it came out. the Lott DID do what the WM claimed and did not deliver.

Now the Lott will perform even better with the new powders and bullets. It's still ahead. Jeffe's AR 458 is abit head of the Lott.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I know you guys are going to think I am crazy but lately I have been wondering if all the reasons Jack Lott had for designing the .458 Lott have now been eclipsed by more recent developments in powder and bullet technology. We now have super bullets from Barnes, Cutting Edge Bullets, Woodleigh, and North Fork and modern powders that make these bullets stone cold killers. If a meager little 45-70 or 450 Marlin will now shoot through a bison, why build anything bigger than a plain old .458 Win Mag. Have we come full circle on the Lott (or the 450 Dakota/Rigby)?

Dave

I think you have hit on something big, or should I say "Smaller"! I concur, the very reason for the existence of the various B&Ms. First, we have the modern powders, and lot's of them, to tailor what we need in a particular cartridge. For the big bores and the dangerous game we hunt it is rare that you need to run them more than 2000-2250 fps, with a proper bullet, this velocity will do anything you need to do.

I was thinking the other day about the new modern powders that turn a 30/06 into a 300 Winchester, and so forth, an entire line of ammo based on that. We already know, it's not just about velocity, just because we run higher velocity, does not mean we have "Enhanced" our cartridge.

Now we have the powder to make cartridges like the 458 Winchester get up to DG Velocity with DG bullets. Something not available 40-50 yrs ago. Tradition has dictated a 500 gr bullet for 458 Winchester, and like capacity, I do not agree, a proper designed 450 can get velocity up, and be far more effective. We have those as well.

How does one really enhance ones cartridge? By bullet design, the bullet does the work, so by bullet design we can enhance the cartridge to meet our expectations, and beyond, and we have done this.

In the past, without proper powders and less than desirable bullets, then we had to have larger capacity cartridges to get enough powder stuffed in to attempt to do the job. Larger cartridges, also meant larger rifles, heavier, longer barrels to achieve results. Today, that has changed, it is not so anymore. Enhanced powders, Enhanced bullets, we now do far more, with far less.

You are on it Dave, I concur.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
When it is all said and done, the Lott STILL out performs the WM

At the time it came out. the Lott DID do what the WM claimed and did not deliver.

Now the Lott will perform even better with the new powders and bullets. It's still ahead. Jeffe's AR 458 is abit head of the Lott.

Keith

Keith

Also a good point as well, but at a cost, still meaning larger rifle and longer barrel to achieve and take advantage of that enhanced powder and bullet.

For instance, I am quite sure that Jeffes 458 AR can equal anything a lot can do with 20-21 inches of barrel, and of course the Lott needs 24 to do that. Chop 2-3 inches of barrel off a Lott and the same loads you had running 2275-2300 fps in the lott now drop to 2150-2200 max, I have done that. Yes, the 458 Lott will out perform the 458 Winchester every day of the week, and it is enhanced as well as the Winchester, but at a cost over more modern cartridges in size. Do we really have to have the power the Lott can churn up, and keep the size? Believe me, I toted Winchester M70s in 458 Lott half of my hunting career, 10.5 lbs, around 45 inches long, muskets after awhile. In it's place, I now would carry a 458 B&M, 8 lbs, 36 inches long, 18 inch barrel, big difference, but by using a bullet like the BBW#13s, it hits with far more authority than anything I ever used back in the day with my Lotts! Well, one could use the same bullets in the Lott, and it would be sent forward in performance by several steps, and out perform the B&M as well, but at too high of a cost in portability & handling qualities. Back in 2005 a hippo had a little issue with me, Win M70 458 Lott, things happened pretty quick, but seemed like forever, during the entire time I kept telling myself there has to be something better than this rifle, something faster on target, something easier to handle, a real working rifle, not a damned musket that is unwieldy and difficult to work with.

You are very correct in your statement, but too high of a cost for myself, too old and tired to tote those things around anymore, and I have 1/2 dozen wonderful 458 Lotts here too! "Lots" HEH... of good memories with them as well.

M

MM,
lots of my AR testing took place in 20.25" barrels! heh

On a number of occasions Jack Lott wrote that all he was after was a round that gave an honest 2150fps with a 500 gr bullet. That was, and still is, a proven performer in the 450 and 470 Nitro.

But now that everyone has jumped on the Lott band wagon they claim that an additional 100-150fps kills thing much deader. But the 460 Wby makes them too dead

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MM,
lots of my AR testing took place in 20.25" barrels! heh

There you go, my point indeed! Hell of a difference toting around 24 inches and 20!

M

I have shot through two elephants with one broadside shot using a 500 grain Hornady DGS at 2,150 fps from a 458 Win. Why would you need more than that?

465H&H

Lott wins out on versatility...one can easily load it up/down to do damn near anything from hefalump to small whitetaill deer.

Confession: a full-throttle .458 Lott is too mch gun for me, no matter how good the fit or what the weight. If the choice is between using a recoil reducer on the Lott or trying to be a better hunter with a .375 H&H, I'll take the latter path.

Good hunting.

More than half a century later, the 458 Win Mag is now supposed to be able to do what Winchester claimed.

It, of course, still cannot reach Lott velocities safely with any hand loads. As well, we are not able to determine the pressure needed to even get close.

If it were about 85-degrees outside, we could all sit on my patio, enjoy some adult beverages and good cigars; and discuss it at leisure.

In the end, the Lott would still be a better choice for DG.

Bullets have increased lethality
Powders have increased velocity or reduced pressure
This has allowed for smaller diameters or smaller cases or both.
A 400 Whelen or variant is quite the killer these days and the 9,3x62 or 375 whatever are quite versatile.
Heck I'd love to hunt DG with the 458 Supershort and CEB
The answer is yes. Full circle but the Lott will do more and the CEB love velocity unless you are getting above 3,200 impact velocity.

Lets face it guys, there are many cartridges on the market that are now duplicated. The Lott is a great round. It the 458 wim mag can be improved and pushed to new limits, so can the lott. I have probably as many big bores as the next guy out there. Any 500 grain bullet at 2150 to 2300 ft/dec will get the job done. I like having choices as do most. That's what make living worthwhile. Get one of each and compare them yourself. If there is one you don't like, trade it in on a different cartridge.

Michael, I only write about what I have shot/own. Some years ago when my Lott was built, the Lott was the ONLY good choice out there. All of the new shorter whizz-bangs had not been designed yet, muchless availibe.

My Lott and my matching 375 H&H cover the bases for the bigger bores, for me. I do not think that I will ever build any more .45 or .375, just so that I do not have to work a bolt a 1/2" less than what I already have. I am qoite happy with what I have.

If I had it to over again, I might go with one of teh newbies.

Hogs will probably be as close as I will ever come to DG.

Keith

Keith
Me too, also some years ago, the Lott was IT! Cat's Meow! I know, I have 5-6 of them! I would never part with any of those. Same story, matching 358 STA, 416 Remingtons, same scopes, bases, rings the works, made it easy!

It's the barrel length that allows the easy handling for the B&Ms, not the short action, which just adds a 1/2 as you say. When I am able to whack that barrel down to 18 inches on a 458 B&M and be the dead equal of a 458 Winchester with 24 inches of barrel, that's a big difference.

Of course no one is saying that the smaller capacity 458s are the equal to the 458 Lotts or larger, just with the new bullet tech and powders available, maybe the Lott is not "Required"as it once truly was.

At any rate, these days I look at the entire package, which is the rifle/cartridge/bullet. I am to lazy these days to tote the big guns! HEH.......

We need to get you some BBW#13 NonCons for those damned pigs of yours! Turn them inside out with that Lott!

M

Not on a big bore, but I just noticed this on my 06 vs. 308 norma. I went to a norma to get a 180g bullet up to 3000fps (for whatever reason, at the time my then hunting mentor was telling me I needed the extra range).

Now with Hornady superformance I can push a 165g bullet at an honest chrono'd 2970, out of a 22" barrel! I honestly have considered selling my Norma (I actually had the entire thread typed and just kept myself from hitting post) and just keeping the 06.

I still think the Lott is better than the WM for the pressure reason, and I agree that if you have something already don't bother changing it, just leverage the powders and bullets for what you have. But I think going at it from the beginning, there are lots of better choices that do the same thing with less cost in materials. (cases and powder).

That's purely from a function and efficacy standpoint though, you still have to consider pictures and observers. I could do with a 458wm what could be done with a 450 rigby, but what's gonna look better in the picture or be more impressive. I have a 375 H&H, but when friends are hanging around in the garage they always ask about those 3 500 jeff cartridges sitting there (I dream of having one some day).

Red

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Of course no one is saying that the smaller capacity 458s are the equal to the 458 Lotts or larger, just with the new bullet tech and powders available, maybe the Lott is not "Required"as it once truly was.

M

+1 I am thinking that the CEB 400 grain .458 BBW#13 will do everything I need to do with a .458 bullet.

If we accept the reasoning that the 458 Lott is the better round than the 458 Win because it can acheive more velocity - then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

+2 on Dave's post

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If we accept the reasoning that the 458 Lott is the better round than the 458 Win because it can acheive more velocity - then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

I think I heard a "snap"

quote:

then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

Too much of a "good thing".(velocity)

As most bullets will not hold up at those speeds. Plus recoil becomes a real factor for any follow up shots that maybe needed.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

Too much of a "good thing".(velocity)

As most bullets will not hold up at those speeds. Plus recoil becomes a real factor for any follow up shots that maybe needed.

Keith

So it must be that those factors, plus the fact that the Lott is also longer, explains this thread?

When I got serious about DG, having killed my first bull Ele with a .375H&H and being totally unimpressed, I went searching first for a .416Rem, which took me over a year to find as they just were not made in any quantity at that time. I later moved up again to the .458Lott, which I used again last September, loaded with the BBW #13, on another Ele.

However, before I departed for that safari, I ordered a .458B&M 20" bbl. build from SSK. Once I have it I fully intend to sell both of my Lotts. Things have changed, but the .458wm is still not the best choice in a .45 caliber DG rifle.

NOTE: The .458B&M rifle is built on a WSM action and will provide performance between that of the WinMag and Lott in the short WSM.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

It is. With today's bullets that hold up, the 460 is in my view the ultimate in the 45s. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

It is. With today's bullets that hold up, the 460 is in my view the ultimate in the 45s. jorge

I agree. The 450 Dakota/Rigby and 460Wby are pretty much the same. 460 is easy to find brass. The loads I was shooting were easy on the brass and seemed accurate enough. 2500 fps with 500's and my deer load 450 TSX at 2450. The deer was not impressed and died right away.

The 458 Win mag will now make a big popularity come back. Just like so many classics that were not that popular for whatever reason, in their day. I have a 458 but no experience yet. Shot it twice. I can see the reports now, 458 win mag is the best as it is the smallest case able to hit needed speeds for DG. Its all you need and people will load it to max and get sticky cases in Africa.

I'm not a 458 fan, I like the 40 calibers BUT lets give the 458 Lott is due, it will get you 2150 FPS and do it at much less pressure and without the dreaded compaction in the African or Arizona/Texas heat. That is a big plus in my book and you can still shoot your lovely 458 Win. whuss load in it? or you can push that big 500 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS with IMR-4320, if your a sadist..

IMO, the Watts or Ackley was the best 45 design in that it has a stright case the length of the 500 gr. bullet, it has an almost invisible shoulder but its there. but, and most important is the Ackley and Watts does not have factory loaded ammo available..

I think the Lott outshines all of the 45 calibers if you do your addition, and by a good margin..

In the meantime I'll shoot through my elephants with a .416 Rem or 404 Jefferys and leave the recoil to the big bore boys. That and I don't care for shooting elephants it tends to scare the buffalo off!

So what are the downsides of the 458 Lott?

I've had two 458 Lotts, and still think it's a better more flexible round, and the correct powder capacity for 500 gr @ 2150 fps. You get lower pressure at the same velocity, don't have to compress the powder as much, and I just don't see a downside to the round.

As far as why Jack Lott didn't use the 458 Watts, it came down to the brass that was available to him. The Watts required belted basic brass to be formed. The lott was designed to be formed from 375 H&H cases, which shorten when opened up, and Jack allowed for that and trim to length.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If we accept the reasoning that the 458 Lott is the better round than the 458 Win because it can acheive more velocity - then why isn't the 460 Weatherby even better?

So if we accept that a certain velocity is NOT necessary in a 500gr .458 bullet to become a certified Dangerous Game Gun, (ie the 458 Win Mag failing to reach 2150fps, therefore the LOTT), then why not just accept the 1600fps, 500gr 458 bullet from the 45/70 and call it a day!

Todd:

PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


So if we accept that a certain velocity is NOT necessary in a 500gr .458 bullet to become a certified Dangerous Game Gun, (ie the 458 Win Mag failing to reach 2150fps, therefore the LOTT), then why not just accept the 1600fps, 500gr 458 bullet from the 45/70 and call it a day!

The circle just got wider

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


So if we accept that a certain velocity is NOT necessary in a 500gr .458 bullet to become a certified Dangerous Game Gun, (ie the 458 Win Mag failing to reach 2150fps, therefore the LOTT), then why not just accept the 1600fps, 500gr 458 bullet from the 45/70 and call it a day!

The circle just got wider

Good response!

I only said the lott over wm for the pressure issue, I wouldn't stoke it to max.

I always liked Chic Worthings tag line "there's no excuse to hunt with an ugly gun" I think that is where the Weatherby falls off the list, there's no excuse for hunting with an ugly cartridge, (double radius )

I've never disliked anything about the lott.The perfect round,IMO.Simple and slim case as well.The 500 and 550 gr bullets and the power to stop elephant.Lets a bolt action rifle have a capacity of 4 without having a mag stick out the bottom.

At what weight could a modern bullet do the same performance as bullets from the 1890s or 1910s or 1960s?
At what capacity could modern powders propell a modern bullet at the same velocity OR same performance.
Maybe those are better specific questions.
Maybe a modern 350 grain 458 bullet could duplicate 1910s performance in a 80 grain capacity at 55k psi for example

Man, what a great thread! I am brand new to big bores in general and just recently got a 458 Lott Ruger #1 for loading up hot 45-70 rounds. Given that the 458 Lott is about 4 to 5 orders of overkill magnitude for what I'll use it for, it's mainly a fun gun for me. I know, I know... The #1 is not ergonomic and as a single shot, not a "real" DG rifle, BUT I think if you have the benefit of sneaking up on your game, you can sure capitalize on the power it has.

I'm not overly concerned with whether the new cartridges will make the Lott obsolete. The 375 Ruger hasn't put much of a dent in the 375H&H. What will be interesting is that someone will eventually make a short version of the 460 Wby mag, and the conversations that follow will probably follow the same lines as this one.

Until then I will just be trying to capture on video the rapid chunkification of a wild hog when a 300gr Barnes Tipped TSX makes contact at 2900fps.

Hey Boomy!
My lengthened .450 Marlin loads are doing over 2200fps with 350s in my Browning BLR.
Max

Close to the 320 grain 9,3x62 load

I never liked the Lott because of recoil at most any loading. I found my 450 Dakota will give me 2250fps out of a 20.5" bbl with most any 450 or 500 gr bullet and it's not a punishing cartridge. It'll roll you some but not like a sledgehammer Lott. Very much easier to shoot.
My prefereence is a 450 gr NorthFork at 2250fps. Very accurate and very nice to shoot.

So 458 Lott cartridge still alive?, I always read the cartridge disputes over whether or not Lott 458 a good cartridge, whether it's a bit of ego of Mr. Lott. I wonder if someday I (which I doubt since my budget is very limited) I will hunt an elephant I can be sure. If the cartridge 458 Lott will give me the security to stop the loading of one of these large mammals (including the Cape buffalo). Thank you.

Oscar.