I always felt the Lott was a wuss cartridge that could easily be outrun by the Ackley or Watts. I have built two Ackleys and they work just fine, particularly with cast bullets.. The Lott was the first of the bunch to have factory headstamped cartridges which was seen as an advantage by some hunters in Africa who didn't offer the appropriate " inducement". I used an Ackley and had no issues even with .375 H&H marked brass. If the Ackley had factory guns and brass available, none of you would be talking about the Lott! As far as the .45's go the .460 Is the baddest and with solids will out do any of the others period. Its problem was until recently there were only Wby's and maybe an odd enfield that could chamber it. Frankly, many of the guys who took .460's to Africa couldn't shoot the thing well enough ( lack of skill, practice and recoil combined with big ego's)and the guns and cartridge got a very bad reputation. The PH's had to sort things out afterwards.
The basic problem is that folks think that by going to the biggest and baddest cartridge they will be making up for their poor shooting skills. Ain't true! It will make your poor shooting worse. It's always interesting to see the guys with 45-70's who shoot them so-so, then turn around and load them up till they can't shoot them even so-so anymore, then jump to Lotts and .460 wby's as the "solution". If I hit em harder even in the foot, they gotta go down faster, don't they? Great logic! Sorry but more power doesn't make up for poor shooting!It might help in a marginal shot, but thats it. What you want first it proper shot placement followed by the most "shock and awe" available! This cuts down on the tracking time mostly and is fun to watch. Both You and your PH will appreciate it! Smackdowns on Buff for example are pretty cool but caused more by really good shooting or by Accident, rather than by raw power!
Rob's Rule Number 3.- If you can't put 5 shots onto a paper plate standing offhand at 50 yrds, with any gun every time, you shouldn't be shooting it at 50 yrds. Try 25 yrds. If you can't do this with a .458 win or Lott, you can't shoot a .458 win or a Lott. BTW, thats what I call "good enough" shooting, a good shot can easily keep all those rounds inside 2". PLease don't try and BS me by saying thats not possible. Cause it is!!!! Oh yes, when and if you fail Rob's rule No. 3 don't forget to blame the gun!-Rob

Amen

I don't know that ego had anything to do with the Lott, I think hanging in a big thorn bush after being tossed up there by a buffalo full of 458 Winchesters had something to do with it..If I ever get tossed from shooting a buffalo with my 404 then you can bet I will post here taking it all back and show you my latest buff gun a 50 cal. BMG round in a fwt. rifle. Things can change in life with experiences such as that. I have a very good friend that packed an 06 for back up on bad things, now the has a double, a 500 and loves his .458...There ain't a thing wrong with changinf ones mind except on the internet where your held to it...

Ray, I remember the story the Jack wrote after he was tossed and in it he said it was in no way the fault of the 458 Win as it did everything it was supposed to do. He simply gut shot the animal and no caliber would have made any difference. He stayed with that story for many years and even went so far as to say that the 458 Win was a great round.
Later, when some reports of low velocity started appearing Jack looked into it and discovered that in some of the older rounds the powder was becoming compacted and not fully igniting. So, to solve that problem he lengthened the cartridge so as to not compress the powder of the day in order to reach the 2150fps that he wanted.
all of this is written in the Peterson's Big Bore Rifles issue that was written and edited by Jack.

There is nothing wrong with the 458 Lott, in fact it is a great round, but the standard 458 Win with todays powders easily reaches the 2150fps that Jack was after.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
So what are the downsides of the 458 Lott?
As far as why Jack Lott didn't use the 458 Watts, it came down to the brass that was available to him. The Watts required belted basic brass to be formed. The lott was designed to be formed from 375 H&H cases, which shorten when opened up, and Jack allowed for that and trim to length.

I have to respectfully disagree on the case issue. Norma was making and importing full length, unformed cases and in the '50's one of the Speer family was making them as well, not sure when they quit, but I used them both back in those by gone years. I'm sure Lott could have bought Norma and maybe still Speer as well had he wanted them. Obviously, he didn't want them.

Phil,
I only read my suggestion in some magazine and thanks for the heads up..

I have no problem with the .458 Win other than the compaction problem and some factory ammo..I do believe it was poorly designed in the first place with less than needed powder capacity, and the reasoning was the short magnum craze at the time I suspect, but on the other hand its about all I can handle at 2100 FPS, soooo! no problema on this end.

I still believe in my heart,that the Lott is more desirable, in that if I had a Lott I would load it to 2150 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet or 2100 with a 550 gr. bullet and get that really low pressure..

HOW-SOME-EVER, (that be Texas lingo) If I had a .458 Win. I would not run out and sell it just to get a Lott, but I might punch it out just a tad so I could use both rounds in it. Heck I think I could do that with a finger nail file.

I predict the Lott will be with us for some time to come. If not I'll shoot a 30-06.

Guys, you are missing the original point of this thread. The question is not whether the Lott is better than the Win Mag or whether the 460 Weatherby/450 Dakota/Rigby is better than both. The question is whether the Lott/Weatherby/Dakota/Rigby are even needed anymore. In another thread there was a post as to how a hunter had simply knocked over two scrub bulls with a 9.3 using fairly light non con bullets. I am certain that my little 450 Marlin will shoot through a bison with a 400 grain Woodleigh Hydro, BBW#13, Barnes Buster, or a 350 grain North Fork cup point solid. I am willing to bet that any of these 286 grain bullets from my little Chapuis double will sizzle through a Cape Buffalo. And what about a 400 grain BBE#13 from my Krieghoff 500/416? Anyone doubt that it pass completely through the skull of an elephant or a hippo? If bullet technology has come this far, has it rendered the Lott, for lack of a better word, "unnecessary"?

Well I have seen the 45-70 and its ilk used on buffalo and even read one write up by a Idaho gun scribe who did so..He kinda walked around the fact that the buffalo went several miles as he pumped him full of bullets..I witnessed a Bison shot 5 times with a 50 caliber lever action and he went 5 miles to die..

Just putting a hole in a DG animal isn't always a road to success and a one shot kill can be made with a 22 if your can wait that long for the animal to die..

IMO DG rifles begin at the 375 H&H and yes I have shot buffalo with lesser calibers, but it only takes once to regret those decisions..

I definatly see a need for calibers like the .416, 404, 458 Win and Lott and I see no reason not to use the big 50s if you can handle the recoil, and recoil should be the determining factor..

I would much rather be over gunned than under gunned..Being under gunned is nothing more thana stunt or in some cases an ego trip IMO, and a dangerous one at that..I have been charged 3.5 times by buffalo and its a wakeup call, believe me. In each case it went through my mind that I needed a bigger hammer!

That said I shoot the 40 calibers for DG as I have reached an age where recoil bothers me beyond my .416 and 404...

Ray:

First, I want to say that I respect your opinion. You have vastly more experience than I. However, to argue that cartridges like the 45-70, 450 Marlin, and 50 Alaskan are inadequate for bison is simply absurd. Fifty million bison were wiped from the plains of America with lesser cartridges and simple lead bullets.

Second, you make my point when you argue that the .416 or .404 are your preferred cartridges.

Third, while I know that you have much African experience, I am wondering how much experience you have with the bullets I described. Have you ever tried a Woodleigh Hydro, a Barnes Buster, one of Michael's BBW#13 solids, or one of his non cons? I know how hard this is. Even I struggle to wrap my mind around the non cons, a bullet designed to shed weight and I am not down with the Raptors. While creative, IMHO Boomie's twin tip concept just makes the bullets longer and more expensive. After all, you can only shoot them one way at a time. However, with respect to the non cons, I have tried to keep and open mind here. The boys that use these bullets report extraordinary success.

If you believe the hype from Woodleigh, and after testing some of the bullets I do, their Hydro creates a permanent wound channel twice the bullet diameter. That means a little .366 bullet creates a .732 wound channel. That's bigger then a 600 NE solid. Give some of these new bullets a try. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Dave,
I have not used the bullets you mentiond. My experience is limited to Woodleighs, GS Customs, Barnes, North Forks and such.

These new bullets may very well make a big difference and only time will tell.

I have shot a few Bison with the smaller 50 in the Marlin and the 45-70 and 45-90 in the 1886 Win rifle with lead bullets, 350 Hornaday, and Noslers partitions and was not impressed at all.

I have seen these calibers used on elk also and again not impressed..The animals made a lot of tracks, died slowly and I have some of this on film and on that film I ticked off the guide because I shot a clients elk as they sat and watched him at 50 yards dieing. After 20 or 30 minutes of this BS I shot that poor old bull behind the ear, and packed my gear and quite booking for that SOB..All they wanted was a one shot kill with the 45-70..It soured me as you can see, and it happens too often just to prove a point I fear. BTW I am quite sure you would not do such a thing.

The old timers shot bulls in the lungs, the bulls stood and the blood shooting out their nose and mouth made a gathering of other bison, it was called a stand, you know that I am sure and yes they killed, albiet the slower the better, but that is not what I would want to do from a sporting proposition. Were I a buffaler hunter back then I probably would have as it was money in the pocket and a necessity.

As to the 458 Lott, I suspect its the best of the best if one loads the 500 gr. bullet down to 2200 to 2250 FPS. I don't know what could kill any better and still have very mild pressure. That said I shoot the 40 calibers.

I simple respectfully disagree with you on certain points, however I fully respect your stand on the subject.

I have killed enough African game with the .458 Lott to know that it works. It's not the best stopper out there, but in good hands it will get the job done.

There are bigger and better hammers, however, even in .458.

And the Lott is a weak sister to a big .500, such as the .500 A-Square, which I would much prefer to use, and do use nowadays.

If I were going to start afresh with a .458, it would be a .450 Rigby.

quote:

I am not down with the Raptors. While creative, IMHO Boomie's twin tip concept just makes the bullets longer and more expensive. After all, you can only shoot them one way at a time. However, with respect to the non cons, I have tried to keep and open mind here. The boys that use these bullets report extraordinary success.

The bullets are designed to be higher BC (the boat tail is one of those tools) and love velocity and don't need high SD just look at the results from a .116 SD 40 grain Raptor and deer.
Most will shoot them tip forward
The bullets are in testing phase to get the lengths right so the length argument is not relevant and there will be multiple weights in several diameters.
The Raptors are designed to mag feed with tips so no length issues there either.
The 308 Raptor is a good example of what the Raptor is all about. 30-30 to 300 magnum
It's ok not to like them but length is not the issue nor being lower SD
Raptors are a system bullet that have flexibility and a decent BC to kill out to 400 yards.

Just for completeness:

1949: Fred Barnes, 450 Barnes Supreme,
Brass is 2.830" long and shoulder diameter is .498".

450 Ackley: 2.850" length and 0.500" shoulder diameter.

Which came first?

And Buhmiller?

All those guys were discussing Mr. Watts' 450 Watts straight case of 2.850" length with him, and amongst themselves, before he built it.

All simultaneous?

Fred Barnes used to offer full length .375 H&H basic cylindrical brass with just a "Barnes Supreme" headstamp
(I suspect Winchester made that brass),
to load a series of many "proprietry" Barnes Supreme cartridges.
The .416 Barnes Supreme and 450 Barnes Supreme were both available in 1949.
They both used the same basic brass.

I got a hundred pieces of that brass from Willis Fowler in 1987 in Anchorage, Alaska, when he built a .416 Barnes Supreme and a 450 Barnes Supreme for me,
Just before Remington came out with the .416 Remington,
inspired by the .416 Hoffman.
Every collector of historic rifles should include a .416 BS and a 450 BS.

Everything old is re-invented several times along the way.
Circling.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I have killed enough African game with the .458 Lott to know that it works. It's not the best stopper out there, but in good hands it will get the job done.

There are bigger and better hammers, however, even in .458.

And the Lott is a weak sister to a big .500, such as the .500 A-Square, which I would much prefer to use, and do use nowadays.

If I were going to start afresh with a .458, it would be a .450 Rigby.

Well, I've left crumpled. I'm always wondering if I have a cartridge that is capable of stopping the charge of an elephant and now they do not. I am sad and disappointed with the 458 Lott.

Regards,

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

I am not down with the Raptors. While creative, IMHO Boomie's twin tip concept just makes the bullets longer and more expensive. After all, you can only shoot them one way at a time. However, with respect to the non cons, I have tried to keep and open mind here. The boys that use these bullets report extraordinary success.

The bullets are designed to be higher BC (the boat tail is one of those tools) and love velocity and don't need high SD just look at the results from a .116 SD 40 grain Raptor and deer.
Most will shoot them tip forward
The bullets are in testing phase to get the lengths right so the length argument is not relevant and there will be multiple weights in several diameters.
The Raptors are designed to mag feed with tips so no length issues there either.
The 308 Raptor is a good example of what the Raptor is all about. 30-30 to 300 magnum
It's ok not to like them but length is not the issue nor being lower SD
Raptors are a system bullet that have flexibility and a decent BC to kill out to 400 yards.

Boomie:

I respect your opinion. However, we are going to have to agree to disagree. It was a really clever idea but it serves no useful purpose. As I indicated, it just makes the Raptors longer and more expensive than the the non cons or the BBW#13 solids for only a minimal gain in ballistic coefficient and calling it a 'system" bullet doesn't make it any more attractive. In addition, the guys that shoot the smaller bores don't need the solid end anyway. I don't want to speak for Michael but if you will go back and look through the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, I think you will see that even Michael had misgivings about the idea at the outset.

I see another problem here. If you guys want CEB bullets to survive, and I sure do because they make the finest solid on the market, they can't be making bullets in all these weights, calibers, and configurations at everyone's whim. It's too damn expensive! For the most part, they have settled on or near conventional bullet weights for the BBW#13s. However, making all these other weighs for the non cons requires a lot of time and money

I am one of those who believes there is no longer any purpose for the Lott.

First, with equal pressures, the Lott only gains about 70 fps over the Win. I can easily get 2200 with a Win and a 22" barrel. Who needs more?

I prefer 450 grain bullets at 2250 in the Win. They recoil noticeably less than the 500 grain bullets. Modern flat point ones penetrate deeper than the older 500 grain round nose solids. Less recoil means you will shoot more accurately. Anyone will.

This stuff about compressed powder is all bunk. In 1962 I was using highly compressed loads for long range at Camp Perry. BTW: It gets above 90 degrees at Camp Perry during the matches. I admit that IF you use the wrong kind of powder and IF you let the rounds rattle around for 10 years during the rains and IF you glue in the bullets (not necessary with today's powder) and the glue seeps into the powder, and IF your automatic machines were set wrong and some of the powder sloshed out, THEN you might have a problem. I don't.

The game will never notice the 70 fps difference. But you might shoot it more accurately and the game will notice that. Personally, having killed one each elephant, buff, and hippo with the .458 Win and the .375 H&H, I can't see any difference between these two. If your .375 will penetrate two shoulders on a big elephant, why would a Lott stop a charge any better than a .458 Winchester?

I am all for agreeing to disagree and am in no way taking it personal but I do care to debate the points you make.
1. Too long. How are the bullets too long?
Twist is a big factor and the raptors are being adapted to be stable in the most common twist barrels or offer multiple weights (lengths)
The 22 will have two raptors and one flat back.
2. BC. The raptors double the BC. That means longer ranges. That is not small.
3. Cost. Yes they are expensive compared to most but these are precision lathe turned bullets not cheaply made cup and core. Value is assigned by the purchaser and the performance. Cost has not been established in most calibers yet. CEB is looking into keeping costs low by mass production. Purchase is voluntary.
4. Costly for multiple calibers to be manufactured. I don't see how this is true but call CEB. They are excited about having a full line of Raptors.
5. Small and medium bore solids not being widely used. I agree most will be used as a hollow point but the solid end is just a boat tail. Some will like the solid option or just forget that it can be used as a solid. Some might like the second round being able to do a Texas heart shot if the animal runs.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

I am not down with the Raptors. While creative, IMHO Boomie's twin tip concept just makes the bullets longer and more expensive. After all, you can only shoot them one way at a time. However, with respect to the non cons, I have tried to keep and open mind here. The boys that use these bullets report extraordinary success.

The bullets are designed to be higher BC (the boat tail is one of those tools) and love velocity and don't need high SD just look at the results from a .116 SD 40 grain Raptor and deer.
Most will shoot them tip forward
The bullets are in testing phase to get the lengths right so the length argument is not relevant and there will be multiple weights in several diameters.
The Raptors are designed to mag feed with tips so no length issues there either.
The 308 Raptor is a good example of what the Raptor is all about. 30-30 to 300 magnum
It's ok not to like them but length is not the issue nor being lower SD
Raptors are a system bullet that have flexibility and a decent BC to kill out to 400 yards.

Boomie:

I respect your opinion. However, we are going to have to agree to disagree. It was a really clever idea but it serves no useful purpose. As I indicated, it just makes the Raptors longer and more expensive than the the non cons or the BBW#13 solids for only a minimal gain in ballistic coefficient and calling it a 'system" bullet doesn't make it any more attractive. In addition, the guys that shoot the smaller bores don't need the solid end anyway. I don't want to speak for Michael but if you will go back and look through the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, I think you will see that even Michael had misgivings about the idea at the outset.

I see another problem here. If you guys want CEB bullets to survive, and I sure do because they make the finest solid on the market, they can't be making bullets in all these weights, calibers, and configurations at everyone's whim. It's too damn expensive! For the most part, they have settled on or near conventional bullet weights for the BBW#13s. However, making all these other weighs for the non cons requires a lot of time and money

Boomie:

The Raptors only work if you shrink down the bullet weight. For example, the 130 grain 30 caliber bullets. They may be the best bullet in the world but I predict this is going to be a hard sell to a guy going on an elk hunt who has a plethora of excellent 165 and 180 grain bullets to choose from. This is all about sales. That guy is going to grab a box of Barnes TSXs or Noslers of conventional weight that already have great terminal performance and a high ballistic coefficient. If CEB is to survive, they have to sell bullets to people other than those on the terminal bullet thread.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I have killed enough African game with the .458 Lott to know that it works. It's not the best stopper out there, but in good hands it will get the job done.

Well, I've left crumpled. I'm always wondering if I have a cartridge that is capable of stopping the charge of an elephant and now they do not. I am sad and disappointed with the 458 Lott.

Regards,

Oscar.

Oscar, you must have misread my first sentence. I have highlighted it in the quote above.

It's just that I prefer a bigger hammer, since it can be counted on for quicker incapacitation in case of non-central nervous system hits.

Yes lots of education and marketing needed.
Why do people like heavy bullets? To penetrate. If by design a 130 cal 308 out penetrates all of the competition than why go heavier. If the 130 grain 308 does more damage than the other bullets on the market then why go heavy? Is the bullet a tool or a status quo keeper? Raptors do more damage at higher velocity. A lighter bullet allows more velocity. A win win situation. Would you care I'd the bullet was .2SD and had amazing performance or .3SD and had half the performance? Is the bullet a means or an end?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Boomie:

The Raptors only work if you shrink down the bullet weight. For example, the 130 grain 30 caliber bullets. They may be the best bullet in the world but I predict this is going to be a hard sell to a guy going on an elk hunt who has a plethora of excellent 165 and 180 grain bullets to choose from. This is all about sales. That guy is going to grab a box of Barnes TSXs or Noslers of conventional weight that already have great terminal performance and a high ballistic coefficient. If CEB is to survive, they have to sell bullets to people other than those on the terminal bullet thread.

Boomie:

I'm with ya man. That's why I always drop down in bullet weight and shoot TSXs. But you're swimming upstream here. Since the beginning, guys have believed that a bullet has to hold together and there are plenty of lower cost premium bullets that will meet those expectations. The non cons are designed to shed weight. Now, you are trying to convince people to shoot really light bullets. Like I said, I am trying to keep and open mind here but even I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept but I see all the positive reports and I have some, so I will give them a try.

One more thing. It may be true that the people at CEB are "excited" about having a full line of Raptors but the pivotal question here is can they make any money selling them? It's all about the money. I would hate to see this idea sink the company because, as I said, those BBW#13s are the best solids available.

Small and medium bores should outsell the big bores by a big factor I estimate but we shall see.
There will be an advertising and marketing campaign as well as the shows.

P.S The 450 Marlin is very cool

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would hate to see this idea sink the company because, as I said, those BBW#13s are the best solids available.

Dave

HEH...... I shoot enough by myself to keep CEB in business!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I have killed enough African game with the .458 Lott to know that it works. It's not the best stopper out there, but in good hands it will get the job done.

Well, I've left crumpled. I'm always wondering if I have a cartridge that is capable of stopping the charge of an elephant and now they do not. I am sad and disappointed with the 458 Lott.

Regards,

Oscar.

Oscar, you must have misread my first sentence. I have highlighted it in the quote above.

It's just that I prefer a bigger hammer, since it can be counted on for quicker incapacitation in case of non-central nervous system hits.

It's okay. But I'm a whiner .

Regards,

Oscar.

I'm sure the rapters are a fine bullet as is the funny looking Woodleigh thats new to the solid game...However, were they needed is my question and will they survive after you get them working in your gun..

My point being that I have had 110% success with the old Woodleigh solids, the North Fork flat nose and especially the North Fork cup points, not to mention the great flat nose solid from GS Customs and now Barnes has a half assed flat nose solid...That being the case one wonders if the rapters and the new funny looking Woodliegh solid will set any records..

I also don't like the idea of lighter bullets going faster, at least for stuff like elephants, buffalo and hippo, I been that route and didn't like it, light bullet in HP persuasion may be OK, but in a solid I want that weight and shooting in magazines, wet sand, horseshit, or whatever does not a buffalo kill..A heart with a hole in it is as effective as a heart blown in half, same for brain shots, sooooo, these are questions that I question! Another thing is some monolithics are too long and they tend to tumble, break and do funny stuff, especially if barrel twists are not condusive to the bullet in question..oh well, it does get complicated if you let it...

But then I'm an old curmudgeon, sot in my ways based on true life experinces and that's hard for us types to change..Let the youngsters figure these things out, they may enlighten us old dogs, but I wouldn't bet on it. I think I will stick with the KISS principle on shooting DG with big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I am one of those who believes there is no longer any purpose for the Lott.

First, with equal pressures, the Lott only gains about 70 fps over the Win. I can easily get 2200 with a Win and a 22" barrel. Who needs more?

I prefer 450 grain bullets at 2250 in the Win. They recoil noticeably less than the 500 grain bullets. Modern flat point ones penetrate deeper than the older 500 grain round nose solids. Less recoil means you will shoot more accurately. Anyone will.

This stuff about compressed powder is all bunk. In 1962 I was using highly compressed loads for long range at Camp Perry. BTW: It gets above 90 degrees at Camp Perry during the matches. I admit that IF you use the wrong kind of powder and IF you let the rounds rattle around for 10 years during the rains and IF you glue in the bullets (not necessary with today's powder) and the glue seeps into the powder, and IF your automatic machines were set wrong and some of the powder sloshed out, THEN you might have a problem. I don't.

The game will never notice the 70 fps difference. But you might shoot it more accurately and the game will notice that. Personally, having killed one each elephant, buff, and hippo with the .458 Win and the .375 H&H, I can't see any difference between these two. If your .375 will penetrate two shoulders on a big elephant, why would a Lott stop a charge any better than a .458 Winchester?

Indy, You are being ignored because you are trying to tell the truth to true believers

True.

I get 2200 on my Win w/ a 22" barrel using A2230 & a 500 grain DGS. That's enough recoil for this old man.

What I like about the "resurrected" 458 Win Mag ballistics is that it makes the older 1950s-1970s classic safari rifles adequate for any African animal. Yes, the Lott is stronger than the 458 WM, and the 500 A2 is stronger than the Lott, and the 600 OK is stronger than the A2, and the 577 T-Rex is probably stronger than them all. But sometimes that's not the point, or we'd all be hunting Whitetails with our safari rifles.

Now that you mention it I probably will take my 416 Rigby to the deer woods this weekend.

Landrum

I am in your camp. A 450 gr @ 2250 FPS is a great load in a 458 WM. I shoot in N Texas in the summer at around 100 F. No issues with that load or 500's at 2150 with AA 2230 powder. I just do not pay attention to those regurgitating info from 50 years ago with no first hand knowledge.
There are a lot of folks on this forum that like to voice their opinions on topics via second or third hand information, never having personally witnessed much less partaken in the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I am one of those who believes there is no longer any purpose for the Lott.

First, with equal pressures, the Lott only gains about 70 fps over the Win. I can easily get 2200 with a Win and a 22" barrel. Who needs more?

I prefer 450 grain bullets at 2250 in the Win. They recoil noticeably less than the 500 grain bullets. Modern flat point ones penetrate deeper than the older 500 grain round nose solids. Less recoil means you will shoot more accurately. Anyone will.

This stuff about compressed powder is all bunk. In 1962 I was using highly compressed loads for long range at Camp Perry. BTW: It gets above 90 degrees at Camp Perry during the matches. I admit that IF you use the wrong kind of powder and IF you let the rounds rattle around for 10 years during the rains and IF you glue in the bullets (not necessary with today's powder) and the glue seeps into the powder, and IF your automatic machines were set wrong and some of the powder sloshed out, THEN you might have a problem. I don't.

The game will never notice the 70 fps difference. But you might shoot it more accurately and the game will notice that. Personally, having killed one each elephant, buff, and hippo with the .458 Win and the .375 H&H, I can't see any difference between these two. If your .375 will penetrate two shoulders on a big elephant, why would a Lott stop a charge any better than a .458 Winchester?

Indy, You are being ignored because you are trying to tell the truth to true believers