What are the advantages of the flat nose vs. the round nose solid? Your thoughts? AIU

Here we go

Plenty of information in the "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread. A short read but certainly worth it.

have a Happy Thanskgivings Day

Again!

Yup- read the novel at Terminal Bullet performance. All will be revealed to you.-Rob

AIU,

You've been an active poster on this Thanksgiving morning. As stated, all the answers to your questions regarding bullets, velocity, etc. are contained in the referenced thread. Enjoy the read and have a great holiday.

Round nose solids feed better,are likely to be made out of steel jacketed copper and lead so that even worn lands in the bore can bite into them shooting them more accurately.They are more likely to be shorter in length making them easier to reload with various powders.There are people who claim that flat nose solids penetrate deeper and straighter but this may be only in the test mediums they choose to use.IMO,this could be true but I am sure many will agree it has not yet been proven and there are not even ballistic gelatin tests available to us through the internet to support this claim.Flat nose bullets are made out of very hard brass or bronze that will eat your lands up as if it were nothing.

Shitaway- You really should STFU! Every time you open your mouth, all you do is succeed in convincing everyone your a moron.
Go make another stupid video and erase all lingering doubt about your intelligence.

There have been many discussions about flat nose vs round nose solids.

The search functions really works.

Thought I'd share.

I tried the search but was not satisfied with the results.

I have 100 Barnes 300 gr. banded solids - all round nose. I couldn't find the flat nose variety.

Barnes has stopped making the solids, because the government bureau (fomerly the ATF) is "investigating" all solids. Apparently, solids made for rifles can be adapted to pistols, and solids are banned in pistol ammo. Thus, it is unlikely I'll ever get my hands on flat-nosed 300 gr. banded solid, at least not anytime soon.

My problem...from a practical hunting perspective is there any REAL difference between the perfomance of the 300 gr. 375 Barnes banded solid round nose vs. the flat nose?

I realize the DOGMA is that the flat nose design is less likely to deflect when hitting bone or traveling through muscle and the like.

Your thoughts?

Regards, AIU

One of the things they found out on the Terminal thread was you can go lighter on the bullet and increase velocity on the flat nose solids and get a better result than with the round nose bullets.
I think it has something to do with Super Cavitation, making a bubble for the bullet to fly through.
The round nose bullets had more base drag and never penetrated as far.
Micheal458 likes compact light rifles. So he was looking for the best he could get in a short barrel. Well he got it. He shot a Cape Buff in the face and it came out its ass.
That was with an all brass bullet, flat nose, in a a lighter weight than most people would use.
50B&M with 425gr.CEB#13 Solids @ 2300 fps 18 inch barrel.
Now a bullet running the FULL length of a Buff that is that light for caliber has got something going for it that a regular round nose does not.

Now am I saying to junk what you have?
OH HELL NO
Round nose bullets do a good job.
BUT
Before you buy new bullets to replace the ones you've shot, give Cutting Edge Bullets or Northfork bullets a look.
These guys have taken the solid to a new level.

Cheers, John

Is this pre crime punishment?
How can a solid bullet be a crime unless loaded into a pistol case and fired?
A 458 500 grain solid bullet is bigger than any pistol cartridge. Are criminals so smart they figured out how to buy a bullet larger than the case and make it work? The govt is run by idiots and anti gun ideologues. I don't care if a solid can be used in a pistol cart. I would want the option for hunting. Fucking nanny state beaurocrat anti 2A bullshit. They can't enforce the laws so they just make anything illegal to suppress gun users and gun rights.
Fuck you you anti 2A fascists. Solids are not violating any laws unless used in a crime.
Following their stupid thinking all ammo and guns will be illegal. Pre crime punishment on objects is stupid and over reaching. Thank god I live in a republic where my rights are guaranteed by the constitution and not by the whim of idiot politicians. Gun rights people need to get these incremental unconstitutional rulings thown out. The ATF should be dissolved. They are ineffectual idiots and criminals. Bullets don't kill people. People do. The trigger does not pull the finger. The finger pulls the trigger. Logic fails them. Happy thanksgiving to all who love The 2A and liberty!
Give me liberty not "welfare"!
Give me liberty not "security"!
Give me liberty not "safety"!
Give me liberty not "equality"!
Give me liberty not PC

Let me get this right.
Ban lead because it is dangerous to the diety mother earth
Ban solids because they are potentially illegal?
Fuck them.
This is about control.
Should we hunt with rubber bullets?
The 2A is there to stop tyranny not crime. I'll take liberty mixed with crime than tyranny, crime and no liberty.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I tried the search but was not satisfied with the results.

I have 100 Barnes 300 gr. banded solids - all round nose. I couldn't find the flat nose variety.

Barnes has stopped making the solids, because the government bureau (fomerly the ATF) is "investigating" all solids. Apparently, solids made for rifles can be adapted to pistols, and solids are banned in pistol ammo. Thus, it is unlikely I'll ever get my hands on flat-nosed 300 gr. banded solid, at least not anytime soon.

My problem...from a practical hunting perspective is there any REAL difference between the perfomance of the 300 gr. 375 Barnes banded solid round nose vs. the flat nose?

I realize the DOGMA is that the flat nose design is less likely to deflect when hitting bone or traveling through muscle and the like.

Your thoughts?

Regards, AIU

I had been lead to believe that they are focusing on RN BBS due to potential feeding issues with certain bolt action rifles and that FN BBS could still be ordered from Barnes. You could get them via that route.

I'd like to read more about the ATF investigation and concerns. Can you point me to the right source?

Thanks

I too would like to see some "facts" about this supposed ATF investigation of all Solids. Is there a reliable reference to it or some BS you just made up? I'm starting to smell TROLL here. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved Barnes has stopped making the solids, because the government bureau (fomerly the ATF) is "investigating" all solids.
Regards, AIU

your post has annoyeed me for a couple reasons
firstly for spreading this lie.. aren't you the same person that said primers or bullets (not ammo, bullets) would be serialied?

barnes hasn't stopped making solids, sir. they have stopped making RN solids, and still make them in FN banded.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/p...rifle/banded-solids/

there is ZERO data backing your claim... which i expect you got from a gun store commando

FACTS, sir, especially when you are talking about laws..

if you are THIS paranoid, remember, the fed scan all hunting and shooting sites, then scan for ip addresses, and put you in a database as a pre-crime...

of course they do not, but stop this crap, k?

do you realize that FMJ pistol bullets are solids? identical construction to woodliegh solids...

and, of course, all expanding monometal bullets are SOLIDS... solid one metal...

and, of course, hard cast lead bullets are SOLIDS and MONOMETAL...

your source is chock-full-o-crap

There is definatly a big difference in a flat nose solid as compared to a round nose solid..The flat nose drive in straighter, it kills better and the hole isn't as likely to close up with fat. The flat nose cuts a portion or hair clear around the hole and I think that assists in blood outletting..

We have or should have know this for years, it was proven many years ago with pistols and today is never questioned..

I am not saying the round nose solids such as Woodleigh are not effective they are but the flat nose simple performs better, otherwise the flat nose wouldn't have become so popular so fast. Lord knows the companies tried to disuade it for years.

My hat is off to you jeffeosso. That was one of the most intelligent and concise retorts I have seen in quite some time. Straight forward and to the point. Well played sir.

Barnes has reintroducted the Barnes round nose (RN). I don't doubt this, but when I asked BARNES themselves by email, when I could buy some solids, they told me that had stopped (for how long I don't don't know) because the government was "investigating" for reasons I reported. I'm not lying just reporting what I was told by BARNES. I should have kept the email.

Here is the post at the Barnes Web site that J. refers to, that is - (http://www.barnesbullets.com/p...rifle/banded-solids/)

"For 2011, Barnes added the RN design back into the Banded Solids lineup. Why? It’s simple: feed and function in bolt action rifles. Hunters use these Banded Solids in larger calibers for dangerous game. The RN is a proven design that works in bolt guns, a very important consideration for this type of hunting. While the Banded Solid FN product is still available, they can only be ordered from the Barnes website.

“If you can’t chamber it, penetration is meaningless.” Brian Bingham, D’Arcy Echols & Co. www.echolsrifles.com.

“My feeling is that the flat nose solids currently in vogue is marketing hype. There are all kinds of supposed technical advantages touted for the flat nose, i.e. that it maintains direction better while penetrating, and greater tissue damage. The flat nose does reduce penetration to a degree.

“Over the many years since the advent of jacketed round-nose solids, who knows how many large beasts have been shot with satisfactory results. If the jacket had the integrity to withstand deformation forces, they worked very well (not all did – such as Kynoch and RWS). The flat nose creates more work for the gun maker, at least for those that ensure their product cycles rounds flawlessly.

“An interesting subject one could discuss endlessly.” Roy Vincent, Professional Hunter & Gunsmith

“I have never noticed any advantage in penetration or holding a straight course with the ‘flat meplat’.

“I first encountered that design early on in my career in the late nineteen forties loaded in Winchester’s 300 gr.375 solid. I had numerous discussions on the subject when I accompanied John Wootters and Jack Carter on safari in Botswana as Jack’s ‘Sledghammer’ solid had a ‘flat meplat’.

“Quite frankly I think the tendency for the ‘flat meplat’ to hold a truer course is mostly ‘theory’. It does undoubtedly have some feeding problems in some rifles.”

Harry Selby, Professional Hunter

“While my experience with flat nosed solids is limited, I have never noticed the difference between them and the round nose. What is more important is the fact that the round nose construction feeds reliably always, and that the construction is sound as your Barnes Banded Solid is.”

Athol Frylinck, Professional Hunter

J., I've never said a word on AR about "serialized primers or bullets." I suggest you call Barnes youself, before you go PSYCHO and acuse people of spreading lies.

AIU

This is easy

Ackley go to the Terminal thread page 205, scroll down a bit and you will see a bullet going from round to flat and every step in between.
As far as feeding is concerned. Sometimes a gunsmith has to work for it.
If a Saiga 12 shotgun can feed reliably at 700 rounds a min. then I think a good gunsmith will make the flat nosed solids feed.

Cheers, John

AIU, you seriously need to read the Terminal thread! This has been gone over in depth to the point that no one is likely to enter this discussion again with you. The reason? It's in the Terminal thread with such detail as to make it impractical to repeat it.

Very short response, Barnes was sold and the new MARKETING guru's who are not as interested in performance but rather selling to the crowd who tend to shoot off the shelf rifles without fine tuning, are now pushing the round nose, in spite of all the evidence that the FN is the better performer. Beyond that, read the thread.

Also, I took delivery of Barnes Banded Solids in numerous calibers over the previous 3 weeks, including 9.3, 375, 416, and 510. They have NOT stopped making them and they are available. All were FN to boot.

Todd,

I want the .375 300 gr. banded solid FN and I just went to the Barnes web page and they're listed as "sold out." When I contacted Barnes when the 300 FN would become available, they gave me this "solids being investigated by the government" stuff and they didn't know when they'd be available.

You're correct they have banded solid in stock and are selling what they have - but I don't want the ones in stock.

I'm just reporting what I've been told by Barnes themselves, via email. I don't know about the quality of the people answering these emails - they may not be reliable.

In any event, I've ordered some 300 gr. CEB FN solids - they look good and will suffice, I hope.

Thanks for your input guys.

Regards, AIU

Phatman,

I went to the thread you suggested and the data is compelling, yet they appear to be shooting through paper catalogs - correct? I agree it's worth reading.

Can one extrapolate to Cape buffalo shoulders and elephant skulls with their test medium?

I know a lot about mammalian anatomy and tisse structure, and this seems a stretch.

Nonetheless, a solid should travel straight and deep, because it may have to traverse all the way from the rump to the heart lung area - possibly needing to traverse the rumen filled with wet grasses.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Todd,

I want the .375 300 gr. banded solid FN and I just went to the Barnes web page and they're listed as "sold out." When I contacted Barnes when the 300 FN would become available, they gave me this "solids being investigated by the government" stuff and they didn't know when they'd be available.

You're correct they have banded solid in stock and are selling what they have - but I don't want the ones in stock.

I'm just reporting what I've been told by Barnes themselves, via email. I don't know about the quality of the people answering these emails - they may not be reliable.

In any event, I've ordered some 300 gr. CEB FN solids - they look good and will suffice, I hope.

Thanks for your input guys.

Regards, AIU

I think you'll like those CEB in any event. I've shot Barnes and nothing else since about 95. Some trouble regulating a double with the TSX encouraged me to give the CEB a try. They are excellent. Good luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Phatman,

I went to the thread you suggested and the data is compelling, yet they appear to be shooting through paper catalogs - correct?

Can one extrapolate to Cape buffalo shoulders and elephant skulls with their test medium?

I know a lot about mammalian anatomy and tisse structure, and this seems a stretch.

Nonetheless, and solid should travel straight and deep, it may have to traverse all the way from the rump to the heart lung area - possibly needing to traverse the rumen filled with wet grasses.

Regards, AIU

...or extrapolate to ballistic gelatine? Is it possible to view FN and RN solids going through the gelatin the way we see other bullets do on youtube? If I did and saw RN bullets not penetrating as much and veering off course I might not buy them.But, where are the tests aside from Micheal shooting them through newspapers and why can't Michael use more than one medium? I think only one test is needed.Fire a 458 FN and RN through ballistic gelatin and measure penetration and straight line performance.IMO,ballistic gelatin may be the only medium that comes close to animal tissue and a news paper medium,entirely solid can be nothing like animal tissue.Try firing a 500gr 458 cal TSX into a wet sand bank and you'll see that there is almost no expansion.Then fire the same bullet into water or gelatin and get instant explosive-like expansion.

Shootaway,

The other important difference between these solid medias and large mammals is that the shoulder and chest wall is only ~6-8" deep, then the bullets enters the large chest cavity. The chest cavity is essentially air admixed with rather flimsy lung tissue containg scattered blood vessels. The heart is more solid but only ~8-10" wide. Once the bullet enters the chest cavity, one wants maximaum hydrostatic shock ripping vital organs (e.g., a blood filled heart) - that is, when velocity, weight retention, and expanded frontal area become very important inside the chest cavity.

However, if you need to shoot a buffalo running away, the bullet may need to traverse a rumen filled with wet grasses. A straight line deep penetrating solid will likely be needed.

The elephant skull would be much more consistently solid like the catalog test media, needing straight-line deep penetration for maxium effect.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Shootaway,

The other important difference between these solid medias and large mammals is that the shoulder and chest wall is only ~6-8" deep, then the bullets enters the large chest cavity. The chest cavity is essentially air admixed with rather flimsy lung tissue containg scattered blood vessels. The heart is more solid but only ~8-10" wide. Once the bullet enters the chest cavity, one wants maximaum hydrostatic shock ripping vital organs (e.g., a blood filled heart) - that is, when velocity, weight retention, and expanded frontal area become very important inside the chest cavity.

However, if you need to shoot a buffalo running away, the bullet may need to traverse a rumen filled with wet grasses. A straight line deep penetrating solid will likely be needed.

The elephant skull would be much more consistently solid like the catalog test media, needing straight-line deep penetration for maxium effect.

Regards, AIU

The bone part of the elephant head will not be 6 feet thick.Neither will be the grass in the stomach which will be loose not compacted like cement and will be mostly in water or gelatin like crap.IMO,elephant head or entire buffalo,it`s all mostly gelatin and therefore gelatin should be the test medium.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shitaway- You really should STFU! Every time you open your mouth, all you do is succeed in convincing everyone your a moron.
Go make another stupid video and erase all lingering doubt about your intelligence.

Hi mate, I ask one thing, is it necessary to resort to insult and offense?, I think we are gentlemen and adults to discuss with respect.

Oscar.

So the real story via the BATFE is related only to Elite Ammunitions LOADED ammunitionusing Trident bullets ONLY in calibers .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC.

BATFE classifed .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC loaded ammunition as "pistol rounds" and the Elite Ammunitions stuff loaded with their Trident bullet (only Elite Ammunition and only their Trident bullet) was ruled by BATFE as armor piercing pistol ammunition.

Only their loaded ammunition using their Trident bullet. Nothing else.

Nothing to do with Barnes except that Elite Ammunition legal team is asking why the ruling applied only to their loaded ammunition(again ONLY in 223, 6.8 Grendel and 6.8 SPC loaded ammunition with Trident bullets).

I have a call into a friend at Barnes as well as an email. Everyone is away for Thanskgiving.

Oscar- absolutely no part of my statement is untrue. I treat Shitaway with every bit of the respect he's due. I could be much clearer should I chose to be. Someone has to say what needs to be said.if you don't like my syle feel free to put me on ignore, but please don't presume to tell me what to say or not to say. Let the moderators decide if I'm out of line please. Back to the issue, i have no interst in the opinions of unqualified and ifnorant people. Enough is enough-Rob

Shootaway,

Gelatin is very expensive and hard to work with. One shot and you have to start over. It would probably be cheaper to shoot buffalo.

Paper pulp is very hard on bullets and is a severe test. If it will penetrate the pulp it will penetrate gel much easier.

From page 283 of Pierre van der Walt's African Dangerous Game Cartridges, "to my mind the day of the round nose solid has come and gone." He then goes on to say, "The new generation of large meplat solids such as the GS Custom and the North Fork have arrived. I don't use anything else any more."

On page 94 of the same book are some interesting photographs showing the stability of various bullet designs going through gelatine.

The conical nose doing a "flip" and the round nose going unstable are clearly photographed.

Apparently, the varying density of the target medium is a factor in the round nose's instability. So, if the round nose was lucky enough to pass through a constant density in the target, it should stay on path. That might explain why the round nose goes unstable sometimes and sometimes not.

The two large meplat solid designs show straight line stability in the gelatine.

In addition, the channel left by the bullet is larger for the flat nose, except when the conical tumbles and goes who knows where.

Ackley,
Any test medium (wet newpaper in this case) that will give you Repeatable test results is a good medium.
If you start to add variables in the media, your data is compromised.

The FACT is that ALL of this data has been confirmed on live game.
There is a lot more to the Terminal thread than solids. All of the popular brands of expanding bullets have also been tested.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Oscar- absolutely no part of my statement is untrue. I treat Shitaway with every bit of the respect he's due. I could be much clearer should I chose to be. Someone has to say what needs to be said.if you don't like my syle feel free to put me on ignore, but please don't presume to tell me what to say or not to say. Let the moderators decide if I'm out of line please. Back to the issue, i have no interst in the opinions of unqualified and ifnorant people. Enough is enough-Rob

Jeez Rob, chill out a bit. You're starting to scare us. Poor Oscar is just trying to be a gentlemen and doesn't know enough about Shootaway yet. You should put Shootaway on ignore. Me, I kind of like his posts. They make me smile...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Oscar- absolutely no part of my statement is untrue. I treat Shitaway with every bit of the respect he's due. I could be much clearer should I chose to be. Someone has to say what needs to be said.if you don't like my syle feel free to put me on ignore, but please don't presume to tell me what to say or not to say. Let the moderators decide if I'm out of line please. Back to the issue, i have no interst in the opinions of unqualified and ifnorant people. Enough is enough-Rob

Jeez Rob, chill out a bit. You're starting to scare us. Poor Oscar is just trying to be a gentlemen and doesn't know enough about Shootaway yet. You should put Shootaway on ignore. Me, I kind of like his posts. They make me smile...

+1

Rob I got to meet shootaway at the hoot and shoot two summers ago. He had the stones to show up even though some here have treated him poorly. He has the same passion for bigbore and biggame hunting we all do. He has been to africa and take a buff with ironsights. He gets out and shoots 458 often and has spent a fair amount of money to build a very nice bigbore, Any of us here would be proud to own that rifle.
He is not a armchair commando!

I agree He does come up with some strange shit some times, I think it's a Canadian thing. He means no harm or ill will to anybody, maybe it's time to cut him some slack. His post are entertaining, your rant is getting tireing and may cause some here to think less of you. I think you are a better man than that.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Oscar- absolutely no part of my statement is untrue. I treat Shitaway with every bit of the respect he's due. I could be much clearer should I chose to be. Someone has to say what needs to be said.if you don't like my syle feel free to put me on ignore, but please don't presume to tell me what to say or not to say. Let the moderators decide if I'm out of line please. Back to the issue, i have no interst in the opinions of unqualified and ifnorant people. Enough is enough-Rob

Jeez Rob, chill out a bit. You're starting to scare us. Poor Oscar is just trying to be a gentlemen and doesn't know enough about Shootaway yet. You should put Shootaway on ignore. Me, I kind of like his posts. They make me smile...

Dave,



It would be a real improvement if more courtesy was shown to other posters on this forum.

465H&H

i understand rob's frustration, and i KNOW george can shoot better than he's showing.

If you don't like my statements, feel free to put me on ignore. I'm frankly getting tired of reading posts by people with make believe experience and outright stupidity as well as those drunks just looking for a fight with someone over their pet sacred cow of the day. I don't associate with people like that in real life and have no interest in doing so here. You want my respect, try earning it. Lots of folks have.Im putting Shootaway on ignore as well as a couple of other clowns. This way you can enjoy them all you want and I can spend my time with those I respect. -Rob

So much for sharing ideas and fellowship.
I guess we are using Hockey rules from now on.

Not worth it.

IMO, a good test for bullet performance would be to first shoot thru a LA-sized, soaking wet phone book (~5" thick), maybe wrapped in two layers of tough rawhide, behind which is a second conventional target placed one foot behind the wet phone book.

On the front of the phone book would be target with a mirror image target on the back side of the phone book, which would be followed by a second strategically placed mirror image target - that is, the one placed one foot away.

One could examine the entrance and exit points on the phone book as well as entrance hole on the one foot away target. Then one would have a clear indication for bullet path deviation and possible key holing (ie., tumbling) by the bullet.

Remember, a Cape buffalo is essentially a hollow cavity surrounded by muscle, tendons, ribs, etc. One needs to know how successfully the bullet is in getting into that cavity filled with vital organs where the damage needs to be done.

This doesn't seem like it would be too expensive.

AIU