This thread seemed to have gotten sidetracked by some.

AT any rate,I think I'll suggest that anyone that wants to shoot Buffalo and elephant with round nose solids please do so and they work no doubt..

I will continue to use the flat nose solids from GS Customs, Bridger (from a large supply I have)base not on therory, I base if on shooting enough buffalo over the years with both types of bullets.

I'm convienced the FN is beyond a doubt the better bullet, and it's definatly a better killer on that chance shot you sometimes get at a record book Kudu or Eland while looking for a tusker or Buff and your gun is full of flat nose solids.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Oscar- absolutely no part of my statement is untrue. I treat Shitaway with every bit of the respect he's due. I could be much clearer should I chose to be. Someone has to say what needs to be said.if you don't like my syle feel free to put me on ignore, but please don't presume to tell me what to say or not to say. Let the moderators decide if I'm out of line please. Back to the issue, i have no interst in the opinions of unqualified and ifnorant people. Enough is enough-Rob

Robgunbuilder,

You have me confused. You have no trouble telling Shootaway what to do and say but get all bent out of shape when Oscar makes a suggestion to you, you tell him not to tell YOU what to do or say. Is this a case of "What is good for the goose isn't neccesarily good for the Gander"?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
If you don't like my statements, feel free to put me on ignore. I'm frankly getting tired of reading posts by people with make believe experience and outright stupidity as well as those drunks just looking for a fight with someone over their pet sacred cow of the day. I don't associate with people like that in real life and have no interest in doing so here. You want my respect, try earning it. Lots of folks have.Im putting Shootaway on ignore as well as a couple of other clowns. This way you can enjoy them all you want and I can spend my time with those I respect. -Rob

jeez, calm down. Letting shootaway get the best of you...he has been yanking your chain for years and you fall for it over and over again...

To whom it may concern,

Some the above posters accused me of being a liar. Well, I asked Barnes Bullets again about when the flat nose variety of their banded solids would be available, and Josh responded as follows:

"The BATFE (ATF) has deemed our Banded Solids as armor piercing bullets. We have appealed their decision and are awaiting a final answer but until further notice we are on a manufacturing hold with all brass bullets.

Thanks, Josh"

Josh Springer | Consumer Service
Barnes Bullets, LLC

38 North Frontage Road, PO Box 620, Mona, UT 84645. Phone 435-856-1111 | Fax 435-856-1040 | joshs@barnesbullets.com

Freedom Group Family of Companies: Remington | Marlin | Bushmaster Firearms | DPMS / Panther Arms | H&R | Barnes Bullets | Advanced Armament Corp | Mountain Khakis | EOTAC | Dakota Arms | Parker Gun


This is very serious infringement on our rights and it will affect not just Barnes bullets but other manufacturers as well.

The OBAMA threat to our hobby is VERY REAL. GET THE VOTE OUT FOR THE NEXT ELECTION - YOUR HOBBY MAY BE IN THE BALANCE.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Oscar- absolutely no part of my statement is untrue. I treat Shitaway with every bit of the respect he's due. I could be much clearer should I chose to be. Someone has to say what needs to be said.if you don't like my syle feel free to put me on ignore, but please don't presume to tell me what to say or not to say. Let the moderators decide if I'm out of line please. Back to the issue, i have no interst in the opinions of unqualified and ifnorant people. Enough is enough-Rob

Hello, I'm not saying what you have to say or not say, I have simply given my opinion and my opinion is that your writing about anything else is disrespectful shootaway. I do not want disputes with any member of the forum, but being a public forum I can also say in the way of another member to act in this case yours does not seem right and she said so, no offense of course.

Sincerely,

Oscar

Thank you all for understanding my position, that at no point is the offense to Rob. I do not personally know any members of this forum, and I do not see any problem about what type Shootaway, perhaps because I am not a connoisseur of high-caliber weapons. I entered this forum to learn, whether you can write Shootaway, as you write Bob. As I said at any time I wanted Rob to offend, but if I have done I humbly apologize. I enjoy this forum, and I would have no quarrel with anyone. Many problems gives life to participate in the forum can be a bigger problem. As such, ROB, I apologize if I have offended. They also say that I have nothing against Shootaway so I will treat him with respect as other users. Thanks ..

Regards,

Oscars.

Gents,
Hasn't this argument actually been made redundant by the introduction of Woodleigh's hydrostatically stabilised solids? (go to http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/ if you haven't heard of them). I haven't used any myself, but from what I have read and from what those who have used them have told me they are the new bees knees in solids.

+1 The Hydro is an excellent bullet.

I used the Woodleigh Hydro on a very large tuskless cow and got more bone damage to her skull and equal penetration to whatI have seen with any other solid bullets including North Fork FN, Woodleigh RN and Ceb #13.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I used the Woodleigh Hydro on a very large tuskless cow and got more bone damage to her skull and equal penetration to whatI have seen with any other solid bullets including North Fork FN, Woodleigh RN and Ceb #13.

465H&H

Very interesting.RN solids penetrating the same depth as FN solids on elephant but not through newspapers.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I used the Woodleigh Hydro on a very large tuskless cow and got more bone damage to her skull and equal penetration to whatI have seen with any other solid bullets including North Fork FN, Woodleigh RN and Ceb #13.

465H&H

Very interesting.RN solids penetrating the same depth as FN solids on elephant but not through newspapers.

Shootaway,

You are over simplifying what I have said. Let me explain. On soft tissue, FN solids in my experience penetrate much deeper in elephants than RN steel jacketed solids. I include Woodleigh Hydros with the other FN solids, and that includes full frontal brain shots. On shots that try to go through the head at an angle where they encounter the very heavy occipital bones, none of them exit the skull. CCMDoc tried this shot with a 900 grain 600 bullet recently and it too failed to exit. The same can be said for shots on to the top of the head that should exit in the throat area. None of the above exit except that I don't have any data on the 600 for this shot. The only bullet that I have seen exit on either of these shots is the 550 grain Woodleigh RN steel jacketed solid from a Lott at 2,150 fps. It has done it consistently and without fail for me. As an aside of full frontal shots that travel down the midline of the skull you can expect the Woodleigh RN solid to end up in the first third of the neck, the Hornady DGS will be found just in front of the shoulder blade and the NF FN, Woodleigh Hydro and CEB #13 in the loin meat behind the shoulder. The 550 grain Woodleigh load mentioned above will be found in the stomach contents.

Ballistic gelatin is used to simulate animal soft tissue not bones, therefore it can't be used to estimate elephant head shots. By picking your test medium, you can prove anything you want. I have never personally shot a bullet into any test medium. I do take the word of those on here that have. It has been reported that RN solids will out penetrate FN solids in pine boards. Something happens to RN solids in wet newspapers or newspapers that doesn't happen in animal tissue. They tend to veer. Michael458 has commented that RN solids do better in animal tissues than in wet magazines.


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The same can be said for shots on to the top of the head that should exit in the throat area. None of the above exit except that I don't have any data on the 600 for this shot.
465H&H

I did make such a shot on my downed elephant and as you describe it exited through the throat. What I'm unable to say for certain is if it would have done so had I shot through a more dorsal/posterior aspect of the skull rather than centering it on the brain from directly "above".

Good info.

I have done considerable testing with both FN and RN solids and in all my test on both large animals,( whales ) and in solid material like pine boards, wet paper and sheet rock, a fair percentage of RN solids eventually veered off course while very few FN solids did.
BUT, the few RN solids that did veer off had usually already penetrated as far as most FN solids and the vast majority of RN solids penetrated further.

None of this is news to old handgun shooters who knew that while FN cast bullets penetrated straight and did quite well on game - when ultimate penetration was required - like against body armor - hard, sharply pointed bullets were chosen.

In addition, while I admit that FN solids appear to penetrate consistantly and deliver more impact, it means little if they won't feed in your rifle.

Phil,
Great minds and all that sort of thing..Thats what I said way back yonder!

The very best flat nose solid I ever used was the Bridger, and he got Cancer and shut down. They were hard and they had a cutting shoulder. They look like a Keith pistol bullet. That cutting shoulder would pull skin into the body cavity on impact at least and inch or two and that cutting shoulder shaved the hair away from the entrance hole thereby allow blood to flow freely without clotting and plugging the hole..I observed this many times..I told one of the expert bullet makers about this and he didn't seem interested and his flat nose solid is little more than a round nose as a matter of fact..Fortunatly Mr. Bridger gave me about 2000 of these great bullets in .416 Caliber and 500 or so in 423 caliber, which I have mostly used. I covet them. I heard someone else was making them but can't find out anything about that.

Many lessons were learned long ago when guys like Elmer Keith were killing big game with Colt .45 Single actions, we need to listen to them and apply their practices to big bore solids..

For many years I made a scene with the bullet makers about the need for a flat nose solid ala Keith pistol bullet design and they didn't buy off on it..Then ITTD made me some by cutting the nose off their RN monolithic ands sending them to me. They looked like a barnes and they performed on Buffalo like a round nose as will the Barnes bullets IMO...Then GS Customs came out with the first of the true flat nose and they work great, then North Fork and they worked great but North Fork did not recommend them for elephant and stated they may not be hard enough, so they did not know if they would work on elephant, same for the cup points. I personally suspected they would work fine and Butch Searc was impressed with how they worked on elephant and said he had never seen so much blood come from a head shot elephant. The cup point is eons ahead of its time btw, ands workd equally well on Buffalo and plainsgame.

The one thing that concerns me is nobody has yet used that cutting shoulder as did Bridger and that set his bullets apart from the others. The big loading companies tell me the cutting shoulder doesn't work..Thats what happens when you hire bean counters and over educated folks that have never shot a buffalo, hippo or elephant. They tend to make "intelligent decisions" based on nada!..

That said, and looking at the new Woodleigh, I am thinking the nose design may very well have the same effect as a wadcutter and work as well as the cutting shoulder.

Oh well I have enough Bridgers to last me the rest of m life, so be it......

Some questions and observations.
The radius helps penetration proved in tests.
The radius could also help feed not getting hung up on the sharp edge. Yes a properly tuned gun can feed them but most do not have your skill.
Why would you care about blood clotting?
Blood clots would not stop internal bleeding and it would take too much time to clot a big bore hole. The animal would die of organ damage or blood loss before that.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
the Bridger, and he got Cancer and shut down.

This is not true, Ray - not even close. One shouldn't post utter lies. I will not go into John's personal business. he still posts here from time to time, you might call or PM him and discuss.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved Barnes has stopped making the solids, because the government bureau (fomerly the ATF) is "investigating" all solids.
Regards, AIU

your post has annoyeed me for a couple reasons
firstly for spreading this lie.. aren't you the same person that said primers or bullets (not ammo, bullets) would be serialied?

barnes hasn't stopped making solids, sir. they have stopped making RN solids, and still make them in FN banded.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/p...rifle/banded-solids/

there is ZERO data backing your claim... which i expect you got from a gun store commando

FACTS, sir, especially when you are talking about laws..

if you are THIS paranoid, remember, the fed scan all hunting and shooting sites, then scan for ip addresses, and put you in a database as a pre-crime...

of course they do not, but stop this crap, k?

do you realize that FMJ pistol bullets are solids? identical construction to woodliegh solids...

and, of course, all expanding monometal bullets are SOLIDS... solid one metal...

and, of course, hard cast lead bullets are SOLIDS and MONOMETAL...

your source is chock-full-o-crap

It is true the ATF has ordered Barne to cease production of all solids from 458 down

you are correct - i have called barnes and verified.
they are also feeling singled out.

Barnes forced to stop production of solids-sounds like bad news.I hope it`s just a temporary thing and it gets straightened out.

the atf hasa declared the 233 and the 6.8 to be pistol rounds. i don't get the others, and neither did the guy at barnes