SDhunter

Sit back and relax....we are on the forums.

But do look at your post again.

By the way, $10K to $100K is where the top wood gun is at.

If you were spending $50K would you order the 375 Ruger or 375 H&H.

Phone Purdey, H&H, Echols, Miller etc and see if they will do a wood gun inn 375 Ruger.

You should especially phone Purdey and H&H to get the refusal in that beautiful accent

Mike

SS,
I don't understand where you are coming from.

I went back and reread your original question and my first post.

You asked which cartridge I would choose. I told you, and backed up why I like my choice of cartridges.

You called bull$#!^. What exactly is bull?
I really wouldn't choose the 375 Ruger? Because I hadn't participated in the thread yet?

You didn't specify makers. If the gunmakers wouldn't make it? Why ask the question then?
It's pretty safe to say I'll never have Purdy or H&H build a gun for me, regardless of cartridge. If I did, I sure wouldn't have a 375 H&H built.

You didn't specify $10K-$100K to be spent.
I know I can build one heck of a rifle for $4-$6K. Sure it won't have the name recognition, but who's to say it wouldn't in 5-10 years.

This thread started with a simple choice: 375 H&H or 375 Ruger.

Degenerated into a pissing contest about how the H&H and Ruger are ballistics equals.

The H&H has history and nostalgia.

The Ruger has a new kid on the block appeal and some common sense engineering. You also specified in your original post to assume long term success for the Ruger.

If I built a custom 375 on my money, it would be on the 375 Ruger. That's my choice.
You can call bull all you want, but you won't change my mind. The new cartridge just makes sense to me all the while, fully appreciating the nostalgia of the H&H.

So I guess in the end, If I wanted a very high end rifle built, it would have to be an H&H. Because the very high end rifle makers wouldn't build what I asked for?

Why did you ask the frickin question then?

SDhunter,
Don't mind SuperSpeed's Keyboard Tourette's Syndrome. His form of tic is to type the F word or S word spasmodically, and it comes out more often when he gets excited about a topic.

That's just Mike, most of us just ignore it, and try not to get into a verbal tic exchange with him.

I must say, it does have a way of livening up the board.

superspeed aka mike...

how about a 375 ruger in a h+h length action...

keep it as a ruger and if you sell it the buyer has a choice and so do you later if you change your mind.

problem solved

p.s. AUSIE! AUSIE! AUSIE!

SDhunter

Just phone up Purdey or D'Arcy Echols about a wood gun in 375 Ruger.

It is really that simple.

Mike

SDhunter

Do you need me to give you the phone numbers.

Mike

boom stick

let's just get a Ruger action for you as starters.....stainlesss I uderstand from jeffeosso....Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I got some news for you SuperSpeed: None of Echols, David Miller or Purdey will build a wood stocked gun for $10K. Purdey would probably do it for a bit less than $100K, but for Miller and Echols you are realistically looking at $20K+ for a proper wood stocked rifle.

Of course if chambered in .375 H&H the rifle would retain most or all of its initial value, but in the 375 Ruger it would probably lost at least 2/3 of its value right off the bat. Same if it was chambered in a wildcat round.

An accurate summation of the commercial realities vis a vis the two rounds.........in a custom gun.

I don't think the makers listed would chamber a rifle in 378WBY either, Mike

I get it, you don't like my choice, so you come up with the excuse that nobody will build it?

How about if you change your question to:
Would Purdy, H&H, Echols or Miller build a wood/blue rifle chambered for 375 Ruger?

I am not well informed in the ways of the elite. So please post pictures when you get your H&H back from Purdy, H&H, Echols or Miller. I would love to see the it.

Since I am never going to have a $20K gun built. I'm going to excuse myself from this discussion.

SDhunter

The 375 Ruger is going to be a top round.

If we remove Reloader 15 from the equation I believe the 375 Ruger will deiver muzzzle speeeds greater than the 375 H&H and to an extent that is greater than the small increase in case capacity would suggest.

But for a high dollar wood gun the 375 Ruger is like the 308, they just don't happen.

As a by the way, you won't get a $20K wood gun from Purdey, H&H, Miller or Echols. And "No" they would talk you out of the 375 Ruger.

Since I am never going to have a $20K gun built. I'm going to excuse myself from this discussion That is your business to put limits on yourself.

Mike

quote:

I don't think the makers listed would chamber a rifle in 378WBY either, Mike

Agree, but Wby will and even add diamonds

Mike

SuperSpeed,

You are of course correct that most of the good riflemakers will not build a gun in a an oddball caliber like 300 WSM or 375 Ruger. You need to step down to the intermediate or lower end riflemakers for such work.

And even with the lower end gunshops you would be foolish to not get a 30-06, 270 or similarly classic chambering if you hope it to hold its value.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
SuperSpeed,

You are of course correct that most of the good riflemakers will not build a gun in a an oddball caliber like 300 WSM or 375 Ruger. You need to step down to the intermediate or lower end riflemakers for such work.

To answer the original question; I would go for the HoH regardless of action. Why? Because Holland makes their rifles based on O.M actions and if it`s good for them, it`s good for me too, and for the rest of the general crowd I believe...
Secondly, availability of ammo
Third, I dont care if the Ruger can púsh another 250 f/s, I think the HoH is as much as I need.
Last, but most important; If I ever would get the money to build myself a top end rifle, I would definately build it on a caliber that I, and noone else thinks I would build it on!
However, I`m pretty sure I will never be able to afford it, sad as it is...

Dan, If I am paying the money why would they care ? At one point in the past someone had to say " 375H&H ? what in the hell is a 375H&H "...............................JJ

Some erroneous claims made here by some:

-"..Purdey would probably do it for a bit less than $100K,.."

How did you get that figure?

"You are of course correct that most of the good riflemakers will not build a gun in an oddball caliber like 300 WSM or 375 Ruger. You need to step down to the intermediate or lower end riflemakers for such work."

"But for a high dollar wood gun the 375 Ruger is like the 308, they just don't happen."

I have personally handled a H&W built Kurz270wsm(22-25k). The HagnShop have & will also do you a WSM if you want one.
Purdey has a new 308win mauser on their site right now.
I have handled a Hagn T/D falling block switch barrel 22/250&308win($25k). and a H&W-Hagn T/D falling block in .338win

In the past, H&Weiss and ReimerYohannsen have quoted me on DakotaCart. chamberings (.375Dak & .416Dak)Fixed or T/D cofiguration, without question.
Why would 375ruger be a problem?

Hagn & HartmannWeiss do not take a backseat to any British or American maker. The Hagn table at ACGG and the HW stand at Reno certainly got most of my attention after viewing everything else.
When I can go to Mr.Hartmanns shop and he can show me how they manufacture my Magnum or Kurz 98 receiver, that enthrals me more than some high end British maker that said "he does not know where his actions come from" when I asked the question.

quote:

Originally posted by SuperSpeed:

quote:

I don't think the makers listed would chamber a rifle in 378WBY either, Mike

Agree, but Wby will and even add diamonds

Mike

Real whorehouse guns

What about the silver rather than wood inlays...........................

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Dan, If I am paying the money why would they care ? At one point in the past someone had to say " 375H&H ? what in the hell is a 375H&H "...............................JJ

It has to do with their reputation as builders of top quality traditional rifles. You can search the world over without finding a Purdey in 378 Weatherby and there is a reason for it. That's not their field.

Mike,
I'll build a 375 ruger on a light weight action, and it will be trimmer, lighter, shorter, and cheaper than the same one could be in 375 hh.


but, are we talking safe queens or hunting rifles?

"who in their right mind would build anything but a 300 HH"... when there are TONS of high dollar 300 weatherbies running around, and, well, quite a few 375 weatherbie...

compare apples to apples, gents,

it is, as always, buyer's choice

In the world of high end custom guns the customer isn't always right. There are lots of things that they won't do, period. I'm thinking of QR scope mounts, screw in sling swivel studs, Monte Carlo stocks etc.

Woodjack

Not long ago a member of NitroExpress.com (I think he is English) posted a 400 H&H (By H&H) priced after conversion from pounds to $US at about $75,000

Go look at the bolt action on Purdey's site. Unlike H&H Purdey don't list prices on their site. What does that tell you

I think you will be quite suprised at how expensive thse bolt guns can get....even from tart places like Wby.

From memory scope mounts by H&H for a bolt gun are 3000 pounds which would be about $6000US

Why don't you call D'Arcy Echols and ask him if he will do you are 375 Ruger or one of the RUMs....and just in his plastic gun, the Legend

From 500 Grains posting:

It has to do with their reputation as builders of top quality traditional rifles. You can search the world over without finding a Purdey in 378 Weatherby and there is a reason for it. That's not their field.

500 Grains's point is valid and not just for guns.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
SuperSpeed,

You are of course correct that most of the good riflemakers will not build a gun in a an oddball caliber like 300 WSM or 375 Ruger. You need to step down to the intermediate or lower end riflemakers for such work.

or other whipper snapped rounds like the 300 win, 300 weatherby, or, lord fogive the lack of nostalgia, the 416 remington.... or the 400 HH

wait a minute...

someone forgot to tell GH and HH about that....

LMAO
jeffe

Let me express this in a way that hopefully all can understand. If you want a Chevy Impala with mag wheels and cherry bomb mufflers, then you go to a redneck auto mechanic for the work, not to the Mercedes dealer. Don't go to Purdey for a 375 Rooger.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Let me express this in a way that hopefully all can understand. If you want a Chevy Impala with mag wheels and cherry bomb mufflers, then you go to a redneck auto mechanic for the work, not to the Mercedes dealer. Don't go to Purdey for a 375 Rooger.

damn grans...igota heck of a chuckle at this post...especialy the ruger spelling...

i dont think there is a redneck 375 out there (well maybe the 375-08 sorry p.c.) and to say a cart does not have class because of age is...well silly.

If the 375 Ruger had been invented first and had a 90 year head start, you guys would laugh your asses off at the design of the 375 H&H. They're ballistic twins for all intents and purposes, but the Ruger is a much more sensible design.

I like classic cartridges and classic rifles. I have a couple of nice 375 H&H's but I'm intrigued with the idea of building a good rifle in 375 Ruger.

As for H&H, Purdey, etc., they'll build anything you pay them to build. I've seen some gadawful rifles and shotguns they've turned out from time to time and "classy" is not a word any of us would use to describe them. Saeed probably has seen some of these in his corner of the world. 90 percent of what they build is beautiful and classic, the other 10% they don't show in the brochures. I have a good friend here whose dad had H&H build a rifle for him in the early 1970's. It has an interesting Texas motiff.

quote:

i dont think there is a redneck 375 out there (well maybe the 375-08 sorry p.c.) and to say a cart does not have class because of age is...well silly.

Not so. Many of us, perhaps most of us will get pleasure from readng older books, magazines etc and the older calibres are part of that scene. It does not even have to be exotic Afric but can be about the way things were blasted in Australia with the 303.

While I am a huge fan of the 378 it does not generate images of tent safaris etc

To buy an H&H or Purdey and the green felt etc is all part of the image. To buy such a rifle and all the atmosphere that goes with it will be lost with a 375 Ruger, a 378 Wby etc. Sort of like going to the top hotel's restaurant and getting a banana sandwich.

I do believe if you were getting a couple of top H&Hs done then you would opt for a 300 H&H and 375 H&H as opposed to a 300 WSM and 375 Ruger.

Even at the crap and tart end of town, how many top wood Wbys (which are not Crown Customs) do you think are done in non Wby calibres.

Mike

Forrest,

While it might be hair splitting there are a couple of pluses of the 375 H&H.....which by the way, in its flanged form looks very much like a scaled up 303.

Firtsly, if all else is equal it must be easier to achieve feeding because the angle of leaving the magazine will less and this will be more important when the rim has to slide under the extractor.

Secondly, it must always be easier to extract.

Thirdly, the belted case allows for a sloppy chamber to be used which in turn will aid chambering.

The 375 H&H, like the 303, was designed to achieve a result whereas the Ruger is to achieve a marketing set of parameters.


Mike

by superspeed" ..Go look at the bolt action on Purdey's site. Unlike H&H Purdey don't list prices on their site. What does that tell you .."

SuperSpeed,

That tells me jackshit.
Ive been to Reno and have spoken with all the top end English,American, German etc, makers that were there, including Echols,Miller. and I know what they cost.
Have you actually received a quote from Purdey for a Bolt Rifle? if so please show us the details of it.
Its best not to rely entirely on what you hear on internet chat.
£20,000 for M98.400H&H LondonShop (about Au$50k),also M98.400H&H NewYorkShop $US47k.
pretty far from the US$75k NitwitroExpress quote.

I very much suspect these prices you are getting(75k) and 500gns(100k) are for examples with more Elaborate Engraving. They are certainly way above the general prices for a plainer but still well spec top end .H&H or Purdey M98.
The impression 500gns gave was that one could not get a well speced PurdeyM98 for much less than Us$100k, thats just plain BS. You gave a similar impression with $US75k.400H&H figure, and that gets the same BS rating.

What 500gns failed to mention was that, when you go to order a Mercedes it does not have to be an AMG version. There are still a few notably less expensive but still premium quality and well spec luxury featured Mercedes on the list. For example 600sl-$125k, 65sl AMG $175k( a 600sl with "engraving"ie;..extra horsepower)
Likewise can be said for M98 rifles from H&H,Purdey, Westley Richards, HartmannWeiss etc.

HERES the WR GunBuilder program

Type of action
Magnum action £7750
Calibre: Advise

Stock
Exhibition stock £1500
Sling swivels (including barrel band) £250
Gold Oval £175
Engraved initials: GGG £105
Steel pistol grip cap and trap £340
Silvers recoil pad £175

Action
Extended magazine box £300
Set trigger £250
Model 70 safe £225
Strap over comb £1200
Extended trigger tang £400

Barrels
Barrel length: 22"

Iron sight and Telescopic mount options
Quarter rib £525
Express sight 1+2 £220
Westley Richards patent foresight £1250
+ Spare foresight bead £175
Side mount (quick detachable) £1500

Engraving
Name only engraving

Total £16340

You will note I have picked all the most expensive options, except the engraving which can be by quote, according to what you want to spend(10,50,100k? or however much you like). That does not mean we have to spend that much to get a very well featured WRm98 H&H98 or Purdeym98.
I have gone to the trouble of providing some info here. Now,why dont you contact Purdey and see what they will charge for an M98Rifle speced the same as the WR quoted above, and tell us if it comes to anywhere near US$100K.
please leave the engraving out of it. Lets just compare apples to apples.
Cause I can add 50-100k engraving to any rifle (a MkV) to impress people with a bumped up price.

Have you actually phoned Echols or Miller to ask them about 375ruger?
I appreciate their work, but to be honest I would not have their exquisit work put on a pre64 receiver with its inferior metallurgy, I would at least insist on a new W.F.Hein 64type receiver for that class of rifle. A new premium M98 receiver would be my prefered choice.
Some folk would not even consider a plastic stock m70 to be of any great class at all, or at least not worthy of all the effort Echols puts into one.
My personal limit is about 3k for an m70, ie; a Syn.stock HCR,RiflesInc,or Penrod creation.

Woodjack,

Go to the Paris Gunroom and look at options cost, some such as the special select wood "by quotation". You can add close enough to $7000US for mounts and recoil pad

You will soon hit $50,000US plus. Then get serious and talk to Purdey.
Now in all honesty would you buy a pair of those in 300 WSM and 375 Ruger or 300 H&H and 375 H&H or 300 H&H and 400 H&H.

Mike

Woodjack

From your selection

Deluxe Walnut with Cheekpiece

Sunday, April 1, 2007

1 British Pound = 1.96845 US Dollar

1 US Dollar (USD) = 0.50801 British Pound (GBP)

Interbank rate +/- 0%

This means:
You buy 1 British Pound : 1.96845 US Dollar
You sell 1 British Pound : 1.96745 US Dollar
You buy 1 US Dollar : 0.50801 British Pound
You sell 1 US Dollar : 0.50827 British Pound

Woodjack-
For Rigby sized cases, Darcy Echols prefers to use the Hartmann & Weiss actions. For smaller cases he will use a M70 or original Mausers.
His 'glass stocked rifles, Legends, are intended to be used as a hunting rifle and are not designed nor intended to be museum quality show pieces. They do incorporate all of his high end metal work and are quite a lovely rifle to shoot and hunt with...if you don't mind the 'glass stock.

I had a good chat with Darcy in Reno.
His regard for the H&Wmagnum98 was very high, as was G.Fishers,RalphMartinis'& Ted Blackburns.
After inspecting a few HW98s' I feel the same, They are a premier action.
As far as a museum quality show piece,they are not just designed to be wall flowers, I will hunt with a $20+k one without hesitation, and do so with absolute pleasure and delight. Marking one is mostly inevetable, that will happen. After the rewards of many good times in the field,you take it on the chin in good cheer.
I have scars on my body from different adventures,and dont mind, so it certainly does not concern me too much to have them on a relatively worthless in comparison bit of metal&wood.
I dont see custom rifles as demi gods, they are more a refined,tuned and balanced work tool or sporting/survival equipment. With the bonus pleasure of looking at them, and having ownership & appreciation of the work that some people do.
Folk happily drive their Porches,Ferraris,Mercs in the snow and rain,and get stone chips in them, and they usually cost way more than a good premium custom 98.

quote:

If the 375 Ruger had been invented first and had a 90 year head start, you guys would laugh your asses off at the design of the 375 H&H. They're ballistic twins for all intents and purposes, but the Ruger is a much more sensible design.

oh soooo true...

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Let me express this in a way that hopefully all can understand. If you want a Chevy Impala with mag wheels and cherry bomb mufflers, then you go to a redneck auto mechanic for the work, not to the Mercedes dealer. Don't go to Purdey for a 375 Rooger.

funny, the 375 ruger seems a perfect fit with the 458 lott and 470 capstick, throw in a 400 hh, and a 500 a2, and you have the perfect "redneck" fleet of new cartridges trying to do what the original (their "betters, no doubt") ones have done for decades, just a little faster (redneck hopped up rounds) and in a turnbolt vs double rifle...


oh well, thanks for the "lesson"


Hey, throw in a some .585 throwing turnbolt rifle, and one finds all of the upstart rounds vs the "nostalgic" double rifle rounds...

cherrybombs on a mercedes?
heh, I've seen a 440 chrysler in a 280 SL...

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
I had a good chat with Darcy in Reno.
His regard for the H&Wmagnum98 was very high, as was G.Fishers and RalphMartinis'.
After inspecting a few HW98s' I feel the same, They are a premier action.
As far as a museum quality show piece,they are not just designed to be wall flowers, I will hunt with a $20+k one without hesitation, and do so with absolute pleasure and delight. Marking one is mostly inevetable, that will happen. After the rewards of many good times in the field,you take it on the chin in good cheer.
I have scars on my body from different adventures,and dont mind, so it certainly does not not concern me to much to have them on a relatively worthless in comparison bit of metal&wood.
I dont see custom rifles as demi gods, they are more a refined,tuned and balanced work tool or sporting/survival equipment. With the bonus pleasure of looking at them, and having ownership & appreciation of the work that some people do. looking at them a bonus pleasure
Folk drive their Porches,Ferraris,Mercs in the snow and rain,and get stone chips in them, and they usually cost way more than a good premium custom 98.

Absolutely right, and for those that feel that way about a rifle they should have what they like and enjoy it. But many of us choose to use 'glass for a variety of reasons. We either can't afford one of their wood stocked treasures, or just don't want to risk busting a stock in half on some far away hunt. Some, like myself, have just decided to spend the extra money hunting after coming to the conclusion that a rifle is just another tool among many in the succesful pursuit of game.

JohnS,
I dont have problem with synthetics, sorry if it came across that way. I see them as a very practicle/common sense intelligent idea, regardless of what a person can afford.
I dont need a premium walnut stocked rifle in my hands to enjoy hunting,but it sure is nice sometimes, and not something one should pass if they get the chance.
HagnMartini build you a fine rifle with full encouragement and hope that you will take it into the field and allow it work in its true nature and purpose.with you hopefully enjoying the proccess at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiiSLJrKdrk

shoot a 375 rooger and you might end up like this...lol

I wonder, of all the posts and posters on this topic, who owns AND hunts a big bore purdey. Also, if any do, if said rifle is chambered with a round that became "standard" after 1970? (416rem, 458 lott, 450 rigby, 450 dakota, 470 capstick, 500 A2) or even a wildcat?

Not a single poster in this entire thread, I would imagine, owns and hunts a purdey bigbore.....

Wants one? That's a different issue.