As much as I've beat the drum that the 458 Lott is the most practical of the serious 45 cals (and it is), I'm starting to think that the ideal 45 case is larger, specifically something that can hold a nominal 90 grs of powder w/o compression. With the lott, 500 gr bullets start compressing charges around 80 gr of powder, and it's at its best with 84-86 gr of powder.

If you were to design the ideal 45 case to drive 500 gr @ 2300 fps, would the 458 Lott be it?

458 lapua

ask rip...he likes his

no belt, the best brass and good avaliability

or for non wildcat 450 rigby but the lapua brass is better

I like the 450 Rigby myself.

I suppose the South African 3" version might be better.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
how about the sharps straight 3 1/4"

You need to look uo the 458 RCBS or ask MacD37/Dugaboy about it. As I understand it it is the 45-120 3-1/4 modified enough so as not to be interchangeable and loaded with smokeless powder to modern pressures. Similar to .450 Nitro Express.

I forgot to mention for magazine rifles, hence the RCBS is out, and I'd think the 3" South African would make for some interesting magazine modifications, also wondering how well or poorly it would feed.

so what about the rigby? lower preasure, no belt and not a wildcat

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H.
If you were to design the ideal 45 case to drive 500 gr @ 2300 fps, would the 458 Lott be it?

Yes. My loads .458 Watts/Lott (2.85 case lenght) for 500 grs FMJ are 89 grs of N540, Vo=2350 f/s. The compression is ca. 1 to 2 mm, that´s no problem with cylindrical powders. I use it in hot africa since 12 years.

Gentlemen

Anyone who has experince with 460 G&A or 450 Vincent long?

Cheers
/JOHAN

Weatherby solved this problem with the 460 a long time ago. Why reinvent the wheel.
Dr B

that would make sense but this is a forum of snobs, the generaly unconventional and wildcats.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
that would make sense but this is a forum of snobs, the generaly unconventional and wildcats.

to interprete B.S.'s post...

this is a community of those that respect low pressure, large bores, convetional (in the british sense - KNOWN) and base our foundations on lessons learned and standards held...

Paul, the round you are looking for is the 450 dakota, i believe...

I have had a running arguement with a friend (a 577 nitro, 416 rigby and 450 alaskan owner) on the lott.

If the problem inherent to the 458 win mag are
1: high pressure
2: not making "spec" loads
3: bullet failures (both ends)...

then how can the Lott, running at higher velocities, hence higher pressure, with the same bullets, and not making the "spec" of 2300 fps be a solution...

we don't have an answer to date.

My opinion is that if the lott were loaded to 458 win mag "spec" AND was only loaded with premium bullets, it would solve the PROBLEM of the 458 SPECFICALLY,

In fact, any "problems" of the 458 winmag are exactly the same in the lott, only masked by 200 fps more velocity BUT.. if the win mag only "really" makes 1950-2000 fps with a 510, then the lott doesn't make it's "spec" at 2200.

If one refers to the original "problem" of how to make a 450 ne#2 (the 470 is a misnomer) in a bolt gun, the lott answers that question at a "mere" 2150.

then again, there's a crowd of people that think magnum rounds (say the 300 and 375 HH) "should" be loaded to either higher pressures or lighter bullets than original, hence the 300 weatherby and the 378 weatherby....

just rambling at this point, so back to your post.

I have no problem with the lott, but i realize 2300 with a 510 is that rounds' true limit, and there is not a thing wrong with it at 2200

jeffe

Jeff,

I concur with your ramblings. The 458 Lott was designed to create the "458 win mag problem". I can hear the flames a crackling now

The problem with the 458 Lott is that it solved that problem not by doing what the 458 win mag supposed to do by opperating at lower pressures, ie 500 gr @ 2150, but by operating at the same high pressure and simply cranking it up to 2300 fps.

I'd really like to see the dimensions of the chamber used on Hornadies pressure gun, but I'm thinking their data that shows 500 gr @ 2200 fps may not be the test gun being too tight as I'd presumed, but rather the nearly straight Lott case not showing any pressure signs when pushing 500's @ 2300 fps even though it's operating at high pressures.

quote:

to interprete B.S.'s post...

this is a community of those that respect low pressure, large bores, convetional (in the british sense - KNOWN) and base our foundations on lessons learned and standards held...

hey, i'd love to be a gunsnob...(someone who owns nice and fancy guns) i love good traditional carts. 416 rigby is one of my favorite carts. i am a snob in many things...food wine spirits cigars women architecture art photography cars ect. a snob is one that appreciates AND owns or uses things. i am an aspiring gun snob

Just curious, do any of you reload for both the 458 win and the 458 lott? If you do, exactly what are the differences in velocity when comparing the 400 and 500 grain bullets?

The problem with that is, nobody that I know who loads for the 458 win or 458 lott is doing strain gauge pressure measurements of their chambers. I know folks with win mag's push 500's to 2150 fps, and I know folks with Lott's push 500's 2300-2350 fps. The big question is, is that at 60, 65 or 70 kpsi?

My first 458 Lott had a 21 1/2" tube, and the last 1 1/2" was back bored to .480" with 10 1/4" holes drilled in it. Not quite a muzzlebrake, but it should have bled off some gas and perhaps dropped velocity.

My best 500 gr load was 87 gr of RL 15 for 2280 instrumental for a 500 gr hornady soft. Someone ran quickload for me and it calculated 75 kpsi. Both of us figured quickload was off, because cases literally just fell out of the chamber, and primer pockets were plenty tight. The chamber on that rifle was generous, and the throat loooong.

My new lott has a much tighter chamber, brass ran through the old lott and fl sized wouldn't chamber. I haven't had a chance to chrono the new gun, but my insticts are that it runs higher pressures than the old gun, but I don't know if that also means higher velocities at the same previous charges.

If you're looking for 500/2300, I can't imagine a better case than the 404 Jeffery. Vincent got what? 2500 with his long version? Back that down a couple hundred and the pressure will be right mild.

Originally posted by Boomstick
[/QUOTE}]
hey, i'd love to be a gunsnob...(someone who owns nice and fancy guns) i love good traditional carts. 416 rigby is one of my favorite carts. i am a snob in many things...food wine spirits cigars women architecture art photography cars ect. a snob is one that appreciates AND owns or uses things. i am an aspiring gun snob [/QUOTE]

"Snob"- n. One who unduly esteems social positions

Another words a gunsnob who owns nice and fancy guns is just like any other snob and thinks there better than you because they own expensive and fancy things.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Just curious, do any of you reload for both the 458 win and the 458 lott? If you do, exactly what are the differences in velocity when comparing the 400 and 500 grain bullets?

good idea.. except one need only have a lott and lott and winmag brass.


i reckon i'll drag some over to keith's one afternoon, and hopefully not have to stop a charging crhony

jeffe

If you shot the 458 win in the lott wouldnt the longer chamber keep pressures lower resulting in possibly lower velocity readings than if shot from a 458 win chamber?

.450 Ackley magnum. - It will push a 500 gr woodleigh to an honest 2400fps at 57-60KPSI on my Oehler strain guage. I've built three of them and you can't ask for more. I'm also a believer in big bullets at no more than 2400fps for DG. No 2600fps Weatherby's for me. Too many failures recorded on DG for me. Plus, the stigma in Africa with even owning a Weatherby .460 would be too much to bear. I've seen em work. I like the Lott as 2150-2200fps will get the job done and properly headstamped cases are nice to have, but for really serious work on stuff that requires a STOP RIGHT NOW, I like the Ackley mag!

those failures probably a bullet issue (round nose, not tough enough bullet) but i am with you a big heavy pill @ 2400 is enough

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
.450 Ackley magnum. - It will push a 500 gr woodleigh to an honest 2400fps at 57-60KPSI on my Oehler strain guage. I've built three of them and you can't ask for more. I'm also a believer in big bullets at no more than 2400fps for DG. No 2600fps Weatherby's for me. Too many failures recorded on DG for me. Plus, the stigma in Africa with even owning a Weatherby .460 would be too much to bear. I've seen em work. I like the Lott as 2150-2200fps will get the job done and properly headstamped cases are nice to have, but for really serious work on stuff that requires a STOP RIGHT NOW, I like the Ackley mag!

Makes a lot of sence to me, spesially since .460Wea'by, .450 Dakota and the .450 Rigby has lesser magazine capasity, but why not go to the .460 G&A?? At abouth the same size as the Ackley, it has more capasity, thus reach 2400 with a lower preassure. No belt, more distinct shoulder, today brass is no consern....?
It would be my choise.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Makes a lot of sense to me, specially since .460Wea'by, .450 Dakota and the .450 Rigby has lesser magazine capacity, but why not go to the .460 G&A?? At about the same size as the Ackley, it has more capacity, thus reach 2400 with a lower pressure. No belt, more distinct shoulder, today brass is no concern....?
It would be my choice.

Fossdal,

You got any articles or information about "450 Rimless nitro express" or "450 Jeffery"(460G&A). Might be possible to get 4-5 round magazine capacity, like 404 Jeffery

Anyone who have tested 550 and 600 grain bullets in various 458 cartridges?

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
If you shot the 458 win in the lott wouldnt the longer chamber keep pressures lower resulting in possibly lower velocity readings than if shot from a 458 win chamber?

not enough to matter, as the winmag already has a relatively long throat .. or,, velocity would decline from lower pressure... net sum zero

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:

Fossdal,

You got any articles or information about "450 Rimless nitro express" or "450 Jeffery"(460G&A). Might be possible to get 4-5 round magazine capacity, like 404 Jeffery

Anyone who have tested 550 and 600 grain bullets in various 458 cartridges?

Cheers
/JOHAN

Johan,

I have never heard it refered to as anything else than .460 G&A. It is made from a .404 Jeffery by Tom Siatos in the '70s. Actually, it was Jack Lott who developed the loads for this cartridge. He loaded it with 89-90 grs IMR 4064 and a 500 grs bullet wich gave 2350 f/s, but I am sure one can reach 2400 with lower preassure than the Acley.

It will give the same magazine capasity as the .404 Jeffery/.416 Dakota/.458 Canadian Magnum.

P.O.Ackley noted that his cartridge would give 2470 f/s with 500 grs and 2200 f/s with a 600 grains bullet.

What ya'all need is a .458 RUM........

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
What ya'all need is a .458 RUM........

which would be a 458x404, or the 460 ga....

jeffe

Paul H,

i ran quickload for your loading and indeed the pressure is around 75k. However, the velocity was 2373, not 2280. When i am lazy, i adjust case capacity to fit the velocity, then see the pressure. For 2280, the pressure was around 58k.

rgds,

steve

.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
What ya'all need is a .458 RUM........

which would be a 458x404, or the 460 ga....

jeffe

right , jeff........but if you use the RUM head size , then you could use the cheaper Remington cases.

I wonder if Rem. would have done better with the RUM if they had brought out a .45 cal. version right off ?

Hi
I think that all these Lott and Nitro Express fans missed the fact that about 100 years ago it was proven that a bottle neck cartrige was more efficent in every way than a straight wall case.

If you would build a 460 wby on a magnum mauser , CZ 550 or the mew montana PH action. then load it aroiund 2500fps you would have the best of all worlds. A large bore, low pressure, plenty of case volume round . It would also exceed the magic 2400fps with ease.

Anyone worried about bullet failure is also living in the past. Barnes TSX, GS custome FN or HV will handle any velocity that a big bore can produce. If you dont belive it look at Saeeds vedios with him pushing Barnes at 2900 - 3000 fps.

If you Gentelmen continue to shoot classic cartiges (ie NE) or cartiges that were designed with classic principles (ie Lott ...) I think you should also should sail to africa the take a steam train to the hunting area the you could use horses to get to your camp. they are all proven to work 100 years ago also.

Dr B

.

I have loaded and hunted with both the 458 Win. and the 458 Lott...The .458 Win got me 2100 and the Lott 2350, thats a substantial amount of velocity in both cases...

In testing I ran the .458 win. up to 2230 FPS and got a sticky bolt and pressure signs galore...

I ran the Lott up to 2588 FPS and pressure signs were flat primers, ejector marks, very slightly sticky bolt perhaps, so I stopped there...Both in 26" tubes..

The only problem I ever had with either cartridge was with overly long 500 gr. monolithic bullets like the Barnes X..They take up all the powder space in both....

I would prefer a 3" chamber 458...and the blown out 404 case is probably a better solution, but I don't know what difference it makes one way or another, they all kill buffalo about the same.

About the only thing I see in this thread is fun and games, and thats OK...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
I think that all these Lott and Nitro Express fans missed the fact that about 100 years ago it was proven that a bottle neck cartrige was more efficent in every way than a straight wall case.

(sic)
Dr B

Could you please elaborate?

That may hold true for rounds developing 2700-3000 fps at the muzzle and more, but I don't believe it holds true for rounds generating 2400 fps and under at the muzzle, and the straight cases may just prove to be superiour for said tasks, ast least in the big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by steve505:
Paul H,

i ran quickload for your loading and indeed the pressure is around 75k. However, the velocity was 2373, not 2280. When i am lazy, i adjust case capacity to fit the velocity, then see the pressure. For 2280, the pressure was around 58k.

rgds,

steve

Steve,

Thanks for running that, but what barrel length did it calculate for the 2280 fps load? Also if you wouldn't mind plugging in 82 and 84 gr of Varget I'd be curious what pressures and velocities it predicts.

Sounds about right that the Lott is a 60-65 kpsi round w/ 500's @ 2300, but if you drop back to 2150-2200 fps youre in the 50-55 range.

The funnything about the human condition is, I don't think hardly anyone buys or builds a 458 Lott to run 458 win mag velocities at lower pressures.

Interesting discussion. When I owned a 450 Ackley I would fireform cases from 416 Rem brass. Now it would be even easier starting from 458 lott cases. I do remember getting an easy 2400 fps with the 500 gr solids and the pressues seemed very low. Maybe the Lott is simply the latest buzz word at the moment and the Ackley is a better cartridge.

The problem with Lott brass is it is too short 2.80" vs 2.85" for the ackley. The Hornady Lott brass I have is shorter still 2.785-.2790" long.

As I posted when I started this thread, I don't think that the 458 Lott is the ideal case configuration for a 45 cal launching 500 gr @ 2300 fps at say 50 kpsi.

That said, from a practical standpoint, the Lott is the best design, those practical considerations are ability to fire 458 win mag with no loss in performance, factory brass avaiable, brass easily formed from 375 H&H, 416 rem mag, or cylindrical basic, factory guns available, and minimal gunsmithing required to convert a 458 win mag to a 458 Lott.

If you want 500 gr @ 2400 fps, I'd go with a 460 G&A or better yet 450 Rigby.

quote:

If you want 500 gr @ 2400 fps, I'd go with a 460 G&A or better yet 450 Rigby.

Or better yet a 470 Mbogo!

Couldn't resist the opening you left.

Cheers,
Canuck

Where would a person obtain 460 G&A Brass?