So....should I convert my 458 Lott to a 450 Rigby?

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Originally posted by Boomstick
[/QUOTE}]
hey, i'd love to be a gunsnob...(someone who owns nice and fancy guns) i love good traditional carts. 416 rigby is one of my favorite carts. i am a snob in many things...food wine spirits cigars women architecture art photography cars ect. a snob is one that appreciates AND owns or uses things. i am an aspiring gun snob

"Snob"- n. One who unduly esteems social positions

Another words a gunsnob who owns nice and fancy guns is just like any other snob and thinks there better than you because they own expensive and fancy things.[/QUOTE]

Well said Jarrod! It is one thing to think a particular type of gun/rifle/chambering is better than another, that is verifiable, by simple physics. That is not my defination of a gun snobb, however, one who thinks "HE/SHE" is better because they own such firearms "IS" a true gun snobb. I think Boom Stick is a little off on his definition here! Of course to say he is absolutely WRONG would make me an OPINION snobb, but it is my opinion that he is,not totally wrong, but off the mark, in this case!

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Weatherby solved this problem with the 460 a long time ago. Why reinvent the wheel.
Dr B

Not in the case of magazine rifles with limited space for the number of cartridges. In most cases you have one round less.

quote:

posted by Paul H.
The problem with that is, nobody that I know who loads for the 458 win or 458 lott is doing strain gauge pressure measurements of their chambers.

My .458 loads are tested and pressure measured in the proofhouse of Liege/Belgium.

I tend to look at the 458LOTT as a fix for the shortcomings of the 458 Win Mag, nothing more! The old window of 480-500 gr .458 bullet @ 2150 fps is all that is needed. The Lott does that in a HUNTING rifle without crushed loads, and will still fits in a 375 H&H length action. The over all diameter of the LOTT cartridge gives you larger magazine capacity, in the same size rifle as a 460 WBY, or 450 Rigby.

I fail to see what the difference is, to a Cape Buffalo, between 2150, and 2350 fps. I find the only real difference has to do with the shooter's shoulder, and his powder supply, and the buffalo is dead as a doornail either way!

I don't think the Lott case is too short, but just long enough to do what the 458 Win Mag should have done in the first place, without problems!

The so-called fixes supposidly remedied by the 460 WBY,and like cartridges, were not fixes at all, but brought about thier own issues, that were already fixed by the lott case! Maybe I just don't get it, but I've always been under the,seemingly, misconception that the 458Win Mag, and 458 LOTT are hunting cartridges, made for stopping big "BITE-BACKS", nothing more. They both do that, the Lott just does it without problems, at the velocities that the 458Win Mag struggled to do! Anything with higher velocity is simply wasted energy, and componants, in my view.

Hear, hear, Mac!!

I load mine to ~2200, That additional 50fps is just to cover any margin of error and keep it above 2150. I can't see why I'd want to punish myself any more than that. At some point it is got to reach diminsioning returns.

-Steve

I,m no guru on the subject but I load and hunt with the 458 and 458 Lott. I use the 375 cylindrical basic brass for my Lott. When sized to 45 cal it measures about 2.870" which I had my reamer ground to suit. It is only marginaly bigger than the 2.80 or 2.85" cases but it wont hurt and saves trimming cases. I only load mine up to 2250 FPS as I think it enough for me. I have loaded it up to 2350 fps but didnt want to hunt with this load. The reason I like the Lott case is that being a bit narrower than the 460 and Rigby ,I can fit 6 rounds in the magazine of my Brno 602. I know all those on the board who have shot 100 times more dangerous game than I have will say that you dont need six rounds ,but my thought is if they will fit ,then why not. The other reason I like my version of the Lott is that if I run out of Lott ammo ,I can use 458 Win or 458 Watts if some happens to be laying around.
In all ,its the narrowest case which will get close to 2300 fps which is what Woodleigh PP softpoint bullets speed limit is.

What is the cost and supplier for the 375 cylindrical basic brass ?

Hornady offers belted basic cases, as well as trimmed to length and headstamped 458 Lott.

After comparing my cast bullets to jacketed bullets, and loading the cast longer, I don't believe there is a problem with case capacity with the Lott.

If one's looking for 500 gr @ 2300+ fps, the Lott isn't the answer. If one's looking for a case that allows one to achieve 500 gr @ 2150-2200 with falls out the chamber pressures, then it is a great chambering.

Paul, Didnt you mention before that your Hornady Lott brass was short? Have you ever measured the overall length of the Hornady basic brass after it was necked down ?

The Hornady lott brass is a tad short ~2.78" vs 2.79" as the nomial trim length for lot brass, though the cases do grow about 0.005-010" per firing/sizing. I haven't gotten any Hornady basic brass, but it is touted as being 2.87" long. My lott chamber is reamed for 2.85" brass.

The main problem is the Hornady seater/crimper. The roll/taper crimpers require a precise case length, too short and no crimp, too long and you crumple the case. I need to pick up a Lee collet crimper, no more crumpled brass, and a great crimp.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
I suppose the South African 3" version might be better.

fla3006

Later in the week ( If I can find enough time, due to a severe lack of typing skills ) I will post the story of the 458 Express - 3 inch, as requested by friend, and designer of the catridge, Prof Koos Badenhorst.

Factory brass is now available for the cartridge, and many game wardens and tourguides in SA are converting old Brno 602's and CZ550' to this cartridge. No magazine box work is needed, and minimal feeding work is required.

The whole story in a seperate post...........

If anyone has specific quesstions in the meantime, I have all the documentation with me.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by the_captain:
I like the 450 Rigby myself.

My personal favorite in the 450 class. Besides the new one I am building on a DSB mauser action, I have a Brno 602 which I rechambered to 450 Rigby years ago. Alittle on the light side, but it hits where you aim. Used it as a work gun for about 6 years.

Brad

It's a wonderfull conversion for the 589 CZ "stomper O/U double in .458 win. Takes 4 minutes to perform and the results are "unbelievable". The best and maybe only under 3K double rifle with less than 1 inch capability at 50 yrds. OK 2 inches offhand!If any of you can ever find one, it is the best bang for the buck that exists. I also will perform the conversion for you for $25 as I have the reamer and yes it's that simple.-Rob

There was an interesting article in Dakota Arms last quarterly newsletter/magazine comparing the 458 Lott vs the 450 Dakota (the 450 Rigby would be in the same boat with the 450 Dakota as it is the same size). The highlights that I remember are:

458 Lott:
500gr bullets get 2250-2300fps, kill anything that walks on two legs or four, rifle could be made light & trim due to a smaller action size, could shoot 458 WinMag in the Lott

450 Dakota:
500gr bullets 2400fps+ was no problem, operate at lower pressure, could handle 600gr bullets with ease (really the big plus over the Lott), rifle weights were heavier and bulker due to a larger action, would kill anything that walks, hops or skipps no matter how many legs it has.

There was some other stuff too, but I would have to go back and re-read the article.

After having had two 458 Lotts, I can assure anyone that wants a 458 Lott that light and trim are not features to be specified when making your choice

If one has the coin, a 450 Rigby et all is the best design for a big 45. The 458 Lott is cheap and easy, not altogether a bad thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
It's a wonderfull conversion for the 589 CZ "stomper O/U double in .458 win. Takes 4 minutes to perform and the results are "unbelievable". The best and maybe only under 3K double rifle with less than 1 inch capability at 50 yrds. OK 2 inches offhand!If any of you can ever find one, it is the best bang for the buck that exists. I also will perform the conversion for you for $25 as I have the reamer and yes it's that simple.-Rob

Where can I find out more information about this rifle? I went to CZ site and didnt find mention of it. Thank you

The Lott, as it stands now is the best route for a 458 caliber rifle..It is long enough, certainly powerful enough, and operates at decent pressure...factory ammo and brass is available and its no longer a wildcat...

For the stated purpose, the 458 Vincent SHORT wins hands down. If you go to the AR reloading page and look over the numbers with a very wide selection of powders in two bbl lengths, you are likely to come to the same conclusion. The average max load is over 2400 fps with 500 grainers, so backing down to 2300 will give you the kind of pressure you are looking for.

All this and it fits in the same chamber as the 458 Win mag without altering the magazine capacity...just clean up a 458 win chamber, open the bolt face a very small amount, and go hunting.

If you use shortened RUM brass, you can skip the bolt face work.

I have spent many years figuring all cases
were to small, hence my wildcatting, but the
Lott is perfect size for 500 bullets at
2200 to 2350. Perfect for reloading as brass is plentiful, and being straight with moderate loads can be loaded a dozen times and more.
And for deer it is perfect with 350 gr
Speers, and will shoot about as flat as an 06
with 180 gr.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Weatherby solved this problem with the 460 a long time ago. Why reinvent the wheel.
Dr B

DITTO!!!

However, is the increase in ballistics really worth the cost?

Even though the Lott is a kind of high pressure cartridge, when you look at the alternatives, aren't they so much more expensive, the animal won't know the difference?

Why is every one satisfied with 2200 to 2300 when 2500 to 2600 is easly obtainable with 500 gr bullets.
Dr B

Two reasons folks are content with 2200-2300, most important is that field use over the past 100 years has shown that bullets behave better at the lower velocity, and secondly, if you don't make a gun shooting 2500-2600 really heavy or muzzle brake it, very, very few folks can accurately shoot such a beast.

If .458" 500 gr @ 2200-2300 isn't enough, the answer is larger dia and heavier bullet at the same speed, not more speed for the 500 gr pill.

I've been watching this topic evolve but I still am wondering about the topic. Is the Lott too small FOR WHAT?

Phil,

I started this thread after trying some cast loads in my 458 lott, and finding the powder charges were pretty heavily compressed, hence my question. What I later realized was the bullets were simply seated too deeply, and that after cronoing them, I'm best to back off a few grains.

I'm quite content with 80 gr of Varget lightly compressed under a 500 gr cast @ 2200 fps

quote:

a 450 Rigby et all is the best design for a big 45.

ask rip about his 458 lapua...shorter, better brass and better feeding

Paul, There certainly are some bullets out there that are too long to fit in most any sane case. I tried loading some 500 gr Bridger brass solid in my 458 Win and had about as much powder space left as a .45 acp. The .416 bullets worked fine in the Rigby though.

Phill

My question is not Is the Lott too small?
We all know that a Lott will kill anything that walks. The question is is it optimum.

In your post on the Alaska Hunting Forum you said about stopping a Brown Bear Charge

----As for the ideal rifle/cartridge combo. I have tried most of them and the .375 H&H, 416's and 45-70 work very well but I have more faith in my short 20 inch bbl 458 Win Mauser firing 500 gr Hornady round nosed bullets.----

If this is true all anyone needs is a 45-70, but you recomend to your hunters and AR members that a 375 H&H is the perfect gun for BB , but you prefer to carry a 458 win. Last year you carried Lon Pauls 458 Lott. So why would the extra power and flexability of a 460 wby, 450 rigby, or 450 Laupa be a negative. If you don't like wby actions build it on a CZ like Lon did on the Lott you used. If the recoil is to much put a knoxx recoil sys in the stock( The Knoxx makes my 416 rem mag kick like a 243 win). If you want to use heaver or monometal bullets you can. so if you are getting a new gun why not get best instead of just adequate.

The guns that we use today were developed by fore sighted and inovative men who were not staisfied with the status quoe. They pushed the envelope of conventional wisdom, all the while being ridiculed by people who can not acept a paradigm shift. With out these men we would still be using rocks and spears to run our dinner off the clift.

Enough bloviating I guess the Heard has a Function also.

Dr B

Dr.B, Power in a rifle is but one factor in it's successful use. I prefer my short, well balanced 458 Win because it handles better than anything else I have ever used. It is sort of a CQB rifle and you will notice the majority of photos of our soldiers (especially spec ops troops) seem to be carrying short weapons rather than full length battle/sniper rifles. The M-1911 45 ACP is chosen for the same reason by serious users even though a 454 Casull may be more powerful.
Rifles also have to be carried and in Alaska, unlike much of Africa, it is carried by the hunter and often for many miles in rugged terrain. For that reason I am not a fan of recoil reducers, heavy barrels or anything else that adds weight.
I don't know what loads you are using in your 45-70 but my short 458 Win pushes 500 gr bullets very close to 2100fps and 400 grain ones to 2300fps. I can't get that from any of my 45-70's.
As to whether or not the affect of the Lott's additional velocity offsets it's additional recoil is a matter of personal opinion. I do know that no matter what one uses he still has to hit them correctly and a well placed 500 gr bullet from my 458 has always worked for me.