quote:

Also known among the cognoscenti as the:

.500 Buhmiller.

The best belted 510 is yet to be...

Add a belt to the 3" Rigby basic case and taper to the bullet for a super size Lott without the rebate of the Wby and NO shoulder.

Just a rebarrel for the Rigby conversions

Use the 500 NE reamer and add a belt to the chamber and dies.

If the 500 NE is great the bolt action belted version will be just as good.

500 NE Rimless

Add it to the other "Perfect" 510's the 500 AR, 500 Mbogo and 500 AHR

Gentlemen,

Actually I was just curious about these cartridges. If I get a 50 cal any time soon, I suspect it will be a 500 NE.
My inquiry about the CZ again was interest. I have a 458 Lott that is being "tweaked" and is my first CZ and was curious as what I might expect.
This board is just full of information and real world experience; I take it in like a sponge. I have certainly learned allot here.

EZ

quote:

Add a belt to the 3" Rigby basic case

That would be a Weatherby Basic case ... maybe the .525" Boomer-ang or something ...

Buy a used .460 and rebarrel and that's it ... DONE!!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Add a belt to the 3" Rigby basic case

That would be a Weatherby Basic case ... maybe the .525" Boomer-ang or something ...

Buy a used .460 and rebarrel and that's it ... DONE!!

We were talking perfection...

The Wby is rebated.

The beauty of the belted Rigby basic is to have a bolt friendly 500 NE using off the shelf stuff.

I don't know which one is more popular in the current hunting fraternity. My favourite is the .500 Jeffery hands down. Super smooth reliable feeding, handles modern powder with no problems, .510 caliber, and fits in standard actions.

fwiw, Fletcher Jamison and John "Pondoro" Taylor preferred the .500 Jeffery.

Leftover bits & parts again Boomer ... try a clean sheet design ... you'll feel better when it's done ...

There is nothing wrong with the 500 NE or the rigby basic so hey...

When I made my choice (which was 505 Gibbs), I didn't expect that the difference in the field would be noticable. There were two factors that swayed me. One was the rebated rim on the Jeffrey, which potentially makes it more difficult to get a rifle to feed properly. Whether true or not, I found a number of comments to that effect, so it became a factor for consideration. The second was that the Gibbs had more powder capacity, which made me think it would be easier to get a safe low pressure load (not necessarily to original specs). I settled on the 600gn Woodleigh at 2270fps, which is powerful but manageable. I have a custom rifle I purchased second hand, which is built on a Granite Mountian Arms action. It is a beautiful piece of work by Fred Wells and I am very happy with the choice, it feeds effortlessly.

Highjack off:

The .505 Gibbs is a nice case design, but requires a stubby little bullet nose to fit in the box of a Magnum Mauser.

The rim of the cartridge really needs at least a .750" bolt diameter, like the Granite Mountain action offers, not like the .700" of a CZ "Skeletor" or even, an original Oberndorf Magnum Mauser!

338User,
Very interesting, your Fred Wells/Granite Mountain .505 Gibbs.
It would be very gentlemanly of you to open the floor plate and put a caliper to the backend and frontend box width and let us see if Fred Wells goes by the "Mauser Law of Box Width": MLBW

458win,
You speak of D'Arcy Echols .505 Gibbs box: Do you know what width, front and back of box?

I wonder what box width Ryan Breeding uses?
Sumbuddy who know?

How about an original George Gibbs?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Highjack off: The rim of the cartridge really needs at least a .750" bolt diameter, like the Granite Mountain action offers, not like the .700" of a CZ "Skeletor" or even, an original Oberndorf Magnum Mauser!

+1 Rip

If it's built properly I would choose the 505 over the 500. Also the rebated rim on the 500J (can be feeding issue if not done perfectly) just looks like an accident waiting to happen, I know it's just me. I sold a 505 made by Dumoulin (sp?) last year that was a sweetheart but with the 500 N.E. Heym DR one was going to be used the other a conversational piece so so the 505 found a nice home.

500 Jeffery all the way. Smaller cartridge and way more power than the 505 Gibbs.

quote:

way more power than the 505 Gibbs

How's that Big dog ..?? The Jeff will launch a 550 grain solid faster than 2700 fps ..??

Ahoy mateys!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

way more power than the 505 Gibbs

How's that Big dog ..?? The Jeff will launch a 550 grain solid faster than 2700 fps ..??

The 500 Jeffery eats the dust of the .505 Gibbs handloads. Antique factory load comparisons not allowed!

Even the CZ can handle 55,000 psi with the .505 Gibbs case.
And that case is about 12.5% bigger in capacity than the 500 Jeffery.

The 500 Jeffery bore has has less than 1% (0.99009%) bigger diameter, and 1.99% bigger frontal area.

The 500 Jeffery in the same action as the .505 Gibbs might be safe to 57,000 psi, 3.6% higher pressure than the .505 Gibbs.
Forget about it in a standard M98 Mauser 500 Jeffery!!!

quote:

I have certainly learned a lot here.

Yea, me too -for sure. I just found the www for gun talk and before this I had to read magazines. Did you ever read seriously critical gun review? Very rare.

Then you have to disagree with 1/2 of what is said here, because opinions are all over the map, but it is great stuff!

Quote :-
338User,
Very interesting, your Fred Wells/Granite Mountain .505 Gibbs.
It would be very gentlemanly of you to open the floor plate and put a caliper to the backend and frontend box width and let us see if Fred Wells goes by the "Mauser Law of Box Width": MLBW
end Quote,

Hi RIP it is 1.040 at the back and 0.870 at the front, but it is not a straight taper, it looks like it kicks in a bit at around where the shoulder is. I don't know the formula, but it feeds perfectly, so it must be right.

I was going to do a CZ 505 Gibbs but changed my mind for two reasons, bolt diameter and recoil. The Jeffery should be able to generate the same velocity with less powder. Down side is it will top out faster (but not before my shoulder or brain)! I did initially have some issues with feeding but the gunsmith remedied it quickly and at no charge.

Chuck

FWIW- I own both a 505 Gibbs and a 500AHR ( improved 500Jeff). The 505 Gibbs can definately be handloaded to higher power. To be honest I am more impressed with the 500a2. I probably shoot it 3X more often than the 500AHR or 505 Gibbs because its easier and more flexible to reload. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
... To be honest I am more impressed with the 500a2. I probably shoot it 3X more often than the 500AHR or 505 Gibbs because its easier and more flexible to reload. -Rob

And whatever the 500A2 can do,
the 500 Mbogo Flawless does better, easier, and flawlessly.

Compared to the 500A2,
the 500 Mbogo has no snaggy-space-wasting belt,
no rebate to the rim,
a greater case capacity,
yet a beltless-base-diameter that is slightly smaller than the Wby belt (500 Mbogo crowds the magazine stack less),
0.010" greater length is still short enough for 3.75" COL with usual hunting bullets,
and a built-in-perfect throat for any long target bullet desired,
yet accurate with the stubby 600-grainers and lighter bullets.

My next 500 Mbogo Flawless will have a 1:9" TWIST Pac-Nor No.6 sporter.
We have 28 inches to chop.
The current one is 25".
Longer or shorter than 25" ...
A nice dilemna.

Ahoy!

while we are on full hijack

if 600gr at 2300 (or 2150) is the question

the 500 AccRel will do all the above, in a standard length action, and with 25% less powder

so, yeah -- as long a one hijiack is fair, here's another one ..

no rebate, no belt, easily available brass, headstamped brass, great dies availale,

and of course, the 500 kyser express fits basically the same description ..

3 great rounds, three different choices, none of them bad... but, the 500 AccRel is the only one that fits in a standard length action

OH YEAH ..?? Well the S&H 525 is a 3" straight case hikacked Wby basic shootin' a .525" x 500 grain bullet at some unknown speed. No silly shoulder or weakling brass. Spaces off the belt with bigger piston area and a totally unavailble bullet size!! Rebarrel your MKV add a drop box and Voila!!

Well blow me down!
Turf wars among pirates!
Surf and turf!
The 500 Mbogo is neither fish nor fowl like the latest two interlopers here!

Fishy: A sawed off 500 Mbogo wanting a home in a 30-06 length action?
Why? With the new standard action being the CZ 550 Magnum, so readily available?
That is about as weak as putting a 500 Jeffery in a standard M98, even worse regarding the pressure required to get a 600-grainer of 50-cal up to 2300 fps.
Why? When the 500 Mbogo (good red meat, buffalo meat) will do 2500 fps in a Magnum action of adequate strength and desirable weight, desirable for even less powerful loads.

Fowl: A belted, rebated, heavily tapered 3" case for a bullet not yet in existence?
Sounds like the ".525 Dodo."



And lest anyone accuse me of similar with the .395, that never existed until I instigated it, nay, it was quite common in olden days, here's another of the many. Look below.

This cartridge uses a 10.03mm bullet,
and that is exactly .395-caliber:

10.15x65 R Express aka 10.15x65 R Purchbuchse
/ SAA 7065 / DWM 498:

http://www.municion.org/Dwm/Dwm498.htm

And a replica of Davey Crocketts's "40-cal"/.395 round-baller and my "400/.395 Nitro Express 3-Inch (aka 10.03x75 R), another Kentucky Long Rifle of sorts, below:

Yes, Good Doctor. Blow you down. Are you done now or do you want to make more of an ass of yourself??

Where did you go to Medical School?

Good Missouri Dr. Berry,

You are the loudest mouth medical doctor I have ever heard. You have little field experience, but many comments about things you know nothing. Do you ever stop and think about your actions?

Dr. Berry,

Do your patients have access to your posts? What hospital do you practice act?

Shiver me timbers!
I've run aground on another shoal of bull whiff, and must get underway before the fogbank of bull whiff engulfs the Jolly Roger.
I better dead reckon the way.
Truth hurts I reckon.
Little bully boy never had any fun at recess?

Ok you folks with CZ's in 500 Jeffery. Anyone shooting the 570g TSX bullets? I just loaded them and am seating them out to 3.73" OAL crimping in the 3rd grooved down and still have about .125" freebore left. The dummy round I made at that length feeds and extracts smoothly.

Tomorrow going to shoot at a friend's place, chronograph (I"m expecting around 2150 fps) and maybe blow some DWJs up ...



Chuck

My most dearest Good Doctor Berry,

Good to hear from you again as weak as you are. Your medical school Dr. Berry? Please.

Good Missouri Dr. Berry,

What hospital to you practice at? Please tell us.

The biggest BIG MOUTH Dr. Ron "THE DON" Berry, questions for you:

1. What type of doctor are you?
2. Where did you go to medical school?
3. Why do you think it is alright for you to crash posts?
4. Why do you think people care what you think?

Dr. Berry, please answer without your typical smart-ass cover up. You JOMFCSNO.

Trying to sit in the corner of a round room again eh?
I am free to be a pirate here.
If you don't like it, put me on ignore.
You are making a glutton-for-punishment fool of yourself.
I do not wrestle with pigs.
But hey, thanks anyway, for your unnecessary "attention." If you continue to be so attentive, then attend to this:

I was simply comparing factory loads from Kynoch and Westley Richards 500 Jeff at 6800 ft.lbs, 505 Gibbs at 6200 ft. lbs.
It does seem a bit odd that every time a question is asked about 2 calibers, everyone has to put in how a different cartridge is better and will out perform the 2 original cartridges asked about. No offense but it sounds like everyone is running an add for their own favorite cartridge, which has nothing to do with the original question. He was not asking about the 500 A square, or the 500 Mbogo etc. Hand loaded 505 gibbs will perform equal with the 500 Jeffery handloads. I stand corrected.

bigdoggy700,
We are gunnutts. That is what gunnutts do.
Never a big bore to me.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I dare anyone to find a fault with the 500 Mbogo "Flawless."

To short neck to look good, bullet seated to deep to look good.
Here is the perfect .500 - the AR!

?

Bent,
A neck length of .492" on the 500 Mbogo is perfect!
500 Jeffery has about a 0.350" neck length!

You say the bullets are not pretty when seated to the usual nose length
that all the manufacturers think appropriate by the position of their cannelures?
And I can seat even longer than that in a CZ box of about 3.85" length.

You are just being silly, Bent ol' boy!
Still trying to find the corner to sit in, in the round room?

Alf,
Thanks for that objective historical and technical discourse.

I would like to see the

505 gibbs
500 jeff
510 wells exp
500 a square

stats side by side think the weatherby case will smoke the rest of em
JMHOP

should say, add that, i have a 510 wells so that shows the corner of the room I am in still

Bent, Thanks, I am very complimented. There's nothing in the world wrong with the 500 Mbogo, or the 500 KX.

Ron,
<putting on flak jacket>
Not for nothing, all these rounds work, and there is no reason to get negative and beligerant between them.


Can the 500 mbogo/500KX be driven faster than the 500 AR, at the same pressure? Without a doubt. Is the performance difference (200fps) imprtant? .. COULD BE ... but be certain to select the proper bullet, as woodlieghs and hornadys are not designed for even 2300 FPS impact speed

I have a great deal of pride in the 500, as it sccompanies my personal goal of making the max out of the standard length action. Your, and Rich's, full length rigby based rounds are excellent solutions, with the question being changed to "in a magnum length action"

seriously, you might consider a thicker skin - You finished a great idea that Dave had, no complaints about it. Rich did the same thing, or so close it takes calipers to measure the difference.

the 500 AR, which is within 2 grains 495 A2, well, aint half bad. But if you really really want to make an issue of pressure.
..
we can take our posted capacities, 158 vs 132, or the ammoguide projected sizes, 139.5 mbogo, vs 124 - 500 ar (but its uglier using thse numbers, as the percentage difference isn't as great - you might need to get Mike up update your case to reflect actual capacity)

If you are running 600 gr at 2500fps, and are only 26 grains larger than the 500 AR .. 158 vs 132gr H20, then running the 500 AR at 2300, you are actually running at HIGHER pressure than me.

The math is, well, wellknown and basically inescapable ..
500 AR = 132 gr of water, 600 gr bullet, 2300fps
500 Mbogo = 158 gr of water, 600 gr bullet, X fps at the same pressure

26/132=19.7% larger capcity
19.7/4= 4.925%
2300*(1+.04925)=2413.3 fps AT THE SAME PRESSURE

Please, Ron, do act like a mature adult and acknowledge that the well KNOWN capacity gain in percent, / 4 = gain in velocity without increasing pressure.

This isn't about piracy, or bullying, or other bs .. its facts, and please, your increasing levels of negatively is getting rather annoying. It appears no one can even disagree with you, without being subject to a tirade.

facts are facts, and even in the best case (158 mbogo) vs worst case, (ammoguide projection, which is always low, 124 for the 500 AR), it would be 2458fps, at the same pressure.

Not pointing out flaws, as that seems to be an important quality, just stating my position. The 500 AR has lower operating pressure than the 500 A2, no rebate, no belt, makes 600gr at 2150 with nil effort, and fits in a standard length action. In other words, the greatest difference between the 500 Mbogo and the 500 AR, is a requirement for a magnum length action for the Mbogo. Not a flaw, but a different equation to solve.

quote:

Alf,
Thanks for that objective historical and technical discourse. thumb

Indeed.

Interesting - I find Ron's posts amusing not annoying ... A big ol Hoss can't take any ribbin' or what ...???

Jeff,
You are in the right ballpark, of course!
Play ball!

I am quite happy about having the only two 500 Mbogos in the world.

I am not trying to sell anything.

I am just having some fun with the obvious.

Get a thicker skin and give me your best shot!

For Pete's pea-pickin' sake!
I got death threats here for coming out with the 500 Mbogo and not kissing up to other "innovators" other than Dave Estergaard.

Dave made dummies of a 500 Mbogo in the late 1990's, thought it was not for him, said he did not mind if I copied his dimensions up to the neck, and used the "Mbogo" name.
I did add a little length to the case. It is slightly original in that regard, but just another tiny step, like Dave made the 470 Mbogo longer than the .416 Rigby.
So I just copied that progression.

John Buhmiller did the "500 Mbogo" in the 1950's, or something darn near like it, before he got hold of the .378 Weatherby brass and did the .458/.378 Wby before Roy Weatherby did the 460 Weatherby.
Uncle John did the .510/460 Wby before anyone else too.

510 Wells Express? Copycat!!!

The 50 Lapua is old man, a .510/.416 Rigby Short.
Similar to the 500 AR. Check the internet for that one!

And so on, and so on.

Many did the .475/.416 Rigby improved before Dave Estergaard did the 470 Mbogo, including John Buhmiller, long ago.
And check out Saeed's .475/.416 Rigby Improved loading data in his reloading pages.
That occurred before the 470 Mbogo.

What Dave did is come up with a name as good as that of the Tyrannosaur of Art Alphin, and better than the Nyati of Ross Seyfried.

Should Dave trademark the "Mbogo" cartridge name and let me pay royalties to him for the two 500 Mbogos?