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Well I just had a long chat with David Miller. We talked about what he would and would not chamber in a $40,000.00 rifle. What he wouldn't chamber is wildcats or what he considered " silly " cartridges. The list of silly cartridges would sure gore some ox'es around here. But guess what ? The 375R is not a problem. David said he would build it. Sorry Dan, mayhaps you should ask before you speak for riflesmiths next time.....................JJ PS...Mr. Echols just returned my call. He said that he would need approx. 30 orders to pay for the tooling to do the 375R, but he has had several calls for this cartridge recently. That combined with the fact that he has lots of parts stocked up for current calibers is why he wouldn't build one today. Again, the calibers he wouldn't build suprised me, but the 375R wouldn't be a problem........sorry Dan. " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | ||
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I am not even sure where to begin JJ... I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever. Take care. smallfry | |||
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And Purdey? | |||
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smallfry, I was infromed by 500Grains, Superspeed and some others I think, that No highend riflesmiths would build a rifle in the 375R. I was challenged to call them and ask. Well I called David Miller and D'Arcy Echols both, David Miller said no problem, D'Arcy Echols said if he could pay for the new tooling then no problem. So much for the " they would never build that " crowd................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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So did you order one? And what did Purdey say? | |||
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While I'd be the first to agree that the 375 Ruger in a Ruger rifle makes a neat little package, I just don't see its merit in a high dollar custom rifle. I've even thought of buying a Ruger myself, before I come to my senses and remember it will just put me $1000 further away from a custom gun. I also don't understand why Echols with a several year backlog of orders would monkey around with a new round after spending the time and money to perfect the setup for belted mags. Especially since the M70s that Miller and Echols appear to favor take the H&H round. I know, I know, the Ruger is faster, but the nearly 100 year old Holland round still works and all of the 270-300 grain bullets out there were designed for its speeds. Its probably a character defect of mine, but I don't think I'd have a rifle built for a round Kynoch didn't load, unless it was a 500 Jeff. Not to be nosey JJ, were you considering a custom .375 Ruger? | |||
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500Grains, I'm still waiting to hear your response to Miller and Echols before I go further.......................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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micds, you need to ask Miller and Echols what their reasoning is.....unlike some I don't speak for them.......................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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JJ, Just wanted to find out if you were trolling them, or if you are actually looking for a custom rifle. _______________ But thanks for no longer asserting that the 375 Ruger pushes a 300 grain bullet 250 fps faster than the 375 H&H at the same chamber pressure.
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JJ, | |||
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JJ, Thank you!! | |||
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500Grains, when I spoke to them I was very forthright, I figured they check this board every once in a while. I gave them both every chance to end the conversation but they were in no hurry to hang up. I don't understand how that is " trolling them ". We chatted at length about rifles, hunting, Germany, work ethic, Africa, I even bought Davids book. Am I not worthy or allowed to talk to them ? I don't get it. Bottom line is they both would build the rifle..............JJ PS.......Dan, don't selectivly post my data. I also chrony'ed 375HH STANDARD factory ammo and the results were different. And why are you trying to mis-lead us by comparing Heavy Magnum ammo to standard ammo ? Thats pretty low. " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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Geez 500grains, all your expertise and assertations seem to be melting. Lying to us isn't right. | |||
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beachbum, This has remained civil, I want it to remain that way. Name calling is juvenile and counter productive..........................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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Well thats interesting, its gone from "no top end maker will do an oddball chambering" ie; Purdey,H&H,WestleyR,Hart&Weiss,ReimerYohannsen,Rigby,Ritterbusch,WaffenJung,WaffenJagd, HagnMartini,Echols,Miller,.. any more?? To just "Purdey". Who gives a ratzass whether they will or wont? theres plenty of classmakers that will and they dont take back seat to Purdey in quality. Id take a HartmannWeiss Or HagnMartini mauser over a Purdey any day. By the way SuperSpeed, heres the Purdey.308winthat would never happen. And for those that have trouser pocket stickball dreams of Purdey and RollsRoyce British tradition, be aware that your snotty nose Roller has an "Oddball" BMWv12 under the hood. Dont worry about keeping up with the times, they could not hold on to the Logo or company. RR & Bentley are owned by VW & BMW. Some Quality British DoubleRifle makers contract Italian companies to supply them with barreled actions. But thats not written on the makers label that is positioned on the inside of the fitted case. | |||
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JJ Good Work. You took the challenge, as presented, to determine if they would do this task. Obviously they will.
224 FPS faster there it is .. well done! Sure looks like custom guys will build a 375 ruger and it goes pretty darn fast jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Woodjack Firstly I am not the Roller type. I am Weatherby with fins and exaust stacks out either side. But I believe the number of 375 Rugers that Purdey and H&H will do will be just this side of fuck all. At the crappy and tarty end of town Wby has done their Safari in 375 H&H. But I would be prepared to bet in their high end stuff all the big bangers have been 378 and 460 and those that were not 378 or 460 were 416 Wby. I would also be prepared to bet that within the next couple of years neither D'Arcy or Miller will have done a wood 375 Ruger. In fact I would replace within the next couple of years with "never". Mike | |||
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So JJ, no offense man, but which one is building a 375R for you? Dan ain't likely to send me a Christmas Card, but I will side with him on this ONE issue. Custom gunmakers are a rather prissy lot, but they don't do many silly things. Echols will build one,oops, will build 30. Damn, I'd sure like to be his reamer maker if he has to pay that kind of money for a reamer. Oops II, he's about ten years behind on orders, so he'll not likely build any before 2020, if then. Miller, crap shoot there. How about you guys shine up Trez Hensley and see what he thinks about padding his resume by being the first to do one? Wink, Bent, you out there? What's the word in Europe? Are our brethren over there all agog over the 375R? Have they heard of it yet? The odds are 50-50 at best, that the 375R will even be chambered by Ruger in ten years. I personally doubt that Ruger built more than 300-400 375H&H's a year the past several years, ask any American manufacturer how many 385's and 458's a year they build, and they will most likely tell you a handful. Try not to get your panties in a bunch until at least this time next year. Rich DRSS | |||
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Im glad you and Blairtherby enjoy your AnnaNicoleSmith MkVs'. I enjoyed mine when I had them. Echols&Miller: with their workload,its unlikely they would be able to start on a 375ruger much before two yrs anyway. So yer statement dont hold much water. Now, aint "never" the same term you used for the likelyhood of a Purdey.308winM98? With the kind of bets your laying, remind me never to go to the races with you. Some(not me) would say 9.3x64B is oddball,But look at the gleam in RalfMartinis eye when you mention m98-9.3x64B, they certainly dont think its Odd. A good part of the commercial success for .375H&H was due to wwII. A turn of luck. It was not until 1935? with the intro of M70,that the 375H&H was more commonly/affordably available. Some 20+yrs after its commercial birth. Like I said it was turn of luck for 375hh. on top of that it really should have a Magnum length receiver. Most Any man knows that in common sense terms 9.3x64B is much more ideal for the overwhelmingly more common std.Length98. But common sense aint a common as one would like to believe. Any man who thinks a Purdey375hhDropboxMagnumMauser is superior to a HartmannWeiss or HagnMartini std.M98-9.3x64B in integrity,class,or in the field performance, is in pompous dreamland. | |||
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We are all aware of it, Rich, and I am sure it will be a succes. Plenty of no-name-gunmakers will chamber it, and the old m98's will again be popular. Not because we need it, but because more people have more money - but not enough to tap on the door to the high-end gunmakers. There is nothing as stubborn and conservative on the planet eart, as an old, succesful craftsmaker, and I'd say the gunsmiths are in the high end of the "grumpy old farts community". So to make a point out of that any of them would not make a rifle chambered for a brand new cartridge is really a bit silly. Nobody has said anything wrong about the cartridge itself, but it is new, and it is only sencible to wait and see if it catches on. The 7mm and .330 Dakota cartridges existed as the .280 and .333 Jeffery 100 years ago, but even with superior design they never became a succes. Then again, oddbals like the .500 Rafiki and .600-.577 Rewa shows that most makers will do anything for money. So I think Dan is both right and wrong, the high end Brittish gunmakers would probably not build it on a standard gun - yet, but for the right money, they would do just about anything, and there are quite a few maharajas around to proove it. The one thing Dan is 100% right about, is that there is no way in the seven hells that the Ruger can get higher speeds than the H&H without higher preassures. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Heap big BS! The .375 Ruger by Hornady has a 3.6% larger case capacity than the roomiest WW .375 H&H case that I can find. The .375 Ruger by Hornady has a 9.9% larger case than PMP .375 H&H brass. Average those two extremes and you get 6.75% bigger with the .375 Ruger over the .375 H&H. The .375 Ruger can get slightly higher velocities than the .375 H&H at same pressures. No question. The .375 Ruger delivers .375 H&H velocities at lesser pressure than .375 H&H max pressure loads. Handloaders cannot duplicate the claimed/hyped Heavy Magnum/High Energy cosmic-squirrel-secret loads for the .375 H&H, and they would be having a lousy day at the powder scales and press if they duplicated the lousy accuracy that goes with them. | |||
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OK, last i heard it was 3 grains more. But SLIGHTLY HIGHER velocities is SCREAMING far away from 250 f/s, and I will still claim a lot closer to NONE!!!!!! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Bent: Get it right! I am the source of this misquoted "3 grains bigger." .375 Ruger/Hornady fireformed case: 101.1 grains H2O .375 H&H/WW brass fireformed case: 97.6 grains H2O. That is 3.5 grains or 3.6% bigger. Get it right! | |||
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Then SLIGHTLY is indeed the word! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Heh, this reminds me of a story i heard once or twice... about a fella that wanted a super high end rifle company to make him a great big ole round. the company declined to make that caliber so the fella asked for a wildcat bigger and thus we have the 700 nitro, from HH, on a double. Aint life funny? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Bent, The first part is WAY too funny!!! The second part does require clarification. 224fps faster than an (unknown load) and 159fps faster than nominal of a 375 HH load (2500fps) The case IS larger, and let's settle on the 6.75% as the difference... MOST 375 HH loads, with modern powders, from the factory, ARE NOT LOADED AS HOT AS POSSIBLE, because modern powders EASILY (how many times have we read it hear) allow the 375 HH to exceed 2500fps. In other words, the "normal" 375 HH load is loaded to VELOCITY not to maxed out pressure. Hornady proves this with the heavy mag load. Now, comes the ruger, with a slightly larger case, and loaded to the same SAMMI as the 375 is spec'ed to. And it goes faster. Guys, it's one of those things, the chrono generally doesn't lie, and that leaves the "improbable" for the solution. IF hornady 375 HH Heavy Mags are safe to shoot, and deliver TWO HUNDRED fps faster than a nominal 375 HH, that pressure level must be assumed to be safe in rifles nearly 100 years old (i mean, no one would actualy ADVOCATE shooting overpressure loads, would they?) so, Hornady loads the 375 Ruger to that pressure level, and gets like results. It's not magic. Why doesn't everyone load the 375HH to that level, then? That's easy... who wants to be the cause for a purdey 375 to go back for sight re-regulation as the irons will now no longer work. Besides, hasn't it been stated, over and over and over again, by PHs and some writers, that 2400FPS impact is perfect? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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What I actually told JJ was the 375 Ruger has merit, however at this time I am not willing to make the up front investment in a run of(min 25 units each) mag boxes or followers for one or two rifles made in this caliber.Perhaps in the future but not anytime soon.I have the boxes and followers to build the 9.3x64, the H&H and 375 Wtby so adding yet another 375 that already has at least one ballistic twin makes little financial sense to me. | |||
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Thank you Mr. Echols........................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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JJ, did you just edit your original post in this thread (to make it true)? | |||
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JJ, ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I was in David Miller's shop yesterday and guess what the first question was they asked me? "What do you know about the 375 Ruger" Neither David or Curt could find anything wrong with the concept of the 375 Ruger as it is no different than the 300 Win vrs the 300 H&H. I didn't order a rifle - wish I could - but have no doubt that they would be willing to build one. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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How close is the 375 Ruger to the 375 Dakota? To me they look practically the same. It doesnt seem like the 375 Dakota caught on, in fact I've never seen one even though I've seen several dakotas in 375 H&H, and I even saw one in 300 H&H. At least from my limited viewpoint customers of Dakota rifles dont see any advantage. Why all the excitement over the Ruger, especially since its ground thats been covered before? On a different topic I like the idea of the 416 Dakota, case capacity is between the 416 rem and 416 rigby, but shorter than the Rigby. Should be able to get 2400fps/400g much more comfortably than the remington, and fit in H&H size actions. Are these Dakotas proprietary? Does Dakota let others use their designs? | |||
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I still don`t understand why anybody would go for a custom gun in .375 Ruger.... the 9.5x66Vom Hofe has been around for years now......oh..ya..The 9.5x66 Vom Hofe is called .375 Westley Richards and has 14-16% more case volume than the .375 H&H. It doesn`t need a magnum length action. I round my own little bricklaying business myself...Hey..I`LL do anything the customers ask my to...even when they are wrong in their architecture....guess why?? DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Mr. Echols has built more than one rifle in .375 Weatherby? | |||
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RIP We have only made one 375 Wtby, but the box and the follower are the same we use for the 300 Wtby, 416 Rem or the Lott. | |||
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My last post disappeared, so again I'll post it in part. 500Grains...I called the 375HH a classic in my first post, why change that ??? I also posted that Mr Echols wanted to have his re-tooling cost covered, but he didn't refuse to build the 375R, how is that lying ??? .........................JJ To all others........ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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I think there is a big difference between Mr. Echols not building one because of sound financial business practices and the snobbery of H&H and Purdey. (which hasn't been proven if they will or will not build one yet) So 500 and SS have gone from 4 companies that will not build one dased on their own personal views to 1. Somebody better throw them a life jacket. Their arguments are complete | |||
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Gentlemen, I will retract my words IF you can show me a rifle each from H&H, Purdey, Mr. Miller and Mr. Echols in 375 Rooger. Let's see the Rooger fans step up to the plate and get some fine guns made. | |||
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Dan, I thinked JJ showed you that you are wrong. You just keep adding more hoops to jump through. What DON'T you understand about the fact that they will build them? This all started with a hypothetical question of which cartridge one would choose to build a high end custom gun. Some people chose a 375 Ruger, obviously not your choice. Respect other people's choices. Then you went on say the builders won't build it. Proven wrong. Now you want to see one. Give it a couple years. What next, you have to have blood on it? Then it has to be blooded in Africa? Then it has to be in Tanzania not RSA or Namibia? Then it has to be out of traditional safari camp? Then it has to be such and such PH? Then the witch Doctor has to bless it? All of this because you wouldn't choose to build a rifle in 375 Ruger and don't agree with people who would. Your entitled to your opinion, I respect your choice to build a 375 H&H. Do you have a Purdey, H&H, Echols or Miller 375 H&H? If not, your just like everyone stating their opinions. Just don't tell me mine is wrong. It takes more of a man to admit he's wrong than to keep digging a bigger hole. | |||
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500guesses, Quicker and easier still, lets see your letters of reply from Purdey,H&H,WR,Echols,Miller,HartmanWeiss etc. saying that they wont build one. Rather than your internet bantering supposition and conjecture. (Conjecture:- To infer from inconclusive evidence; guess) (Supposition:- the act of supposing. Something supposed; an assumption.) Do we refer to Darcy as "OddballEchols" and a "lower end rifle maker" now, cause he does 9.3x64B? according 500gns criteria we should.
(Need:- necessity,required,obligated.) (Most:- greatest in number,amount,extent,or degree.In the greatest number of instances.) | |||
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