David,
I don't know what to think about the Loc-tite, on a firing pin. Where are the learned gunsmiths with an opinion on the fix? It seems that there is some random substitution of C-clips in the Magnums, and a pattern of regular use of C-clips in the shorter actions. Are there any tricks to simply removing the BAD 2 parts and putting the GOOD 2 parts in their place? Seems like it ought to be something we could do ourselves, eh, gunsmiths?

PC,
Take a gander at your manual. Very simple. Open the bolt and slide it back an inch then close it. Then press the little plunger on the left side of the bolt shroud, with your left thumb, and hold it in while you open the bolt and withdraw it back to the bolt stop. Then let go of the plunger on the way to the bolt stop and depress the bolt stop to free the bolt. Then a very light counter clockwise twist of the bolt shroud and the whole firing pin assembly comes screwing out of the bolt body. Slick and easy to to spray with gun scrubber and re-lubricate as appropriate, BreakFree CLP for me most of the time, except for arctic expeditions.

There has got to be a simple fix for the flimsy C-clip! It seems to be an assembler whim as to whether one's gun gets the C-clip or the good nut and support.

Mike,
You almost need a microscope to see the pitiful little C-clip hiding under the forward side of the solitary knurled firing pin spring nut. It's about the size of a pubic hair from Lolita. Pitiful.

You just want to see the two piece assembly of tits on part #19 (firing pin spring support) fitting into the recesses on part #20 (firing pin spring nut), as in the drawing that GonHuntin posted. That is supposedly the GOOD setup, and I believe it.

Thanks to Okie John for the headsup on this issue.

DaggaRon,

The round-top CZs made to take Remington scope mounts were from the days when Magnum Research (of Desert Eagle fame/infamy) briefly imported the CZ line. That's what the MRI stamping means.

Best,
Joe

Thanks Dagga

I am certain CZ will do right by this..They have a lot to lose and nothing to gain by not fixing it..

I look forward to owning several myself.

Mike

Humm...


You think I can order one from CZ, and specify for an action WITHOUT a C-clip?

Probably around christmas...

Thanks!

nextjoe,
Thanks. The MRI, Magnum Research, Inc., of Minneapolis, Minnesota. This must be one of the "Minnesota" model CZ 550 rifles. I guess it has evolved into the "American."

Any idea on the year they started coming into Minnesota? A Blue Book search by the super heroine Reference Librarian action figure is in order.

The old Minnesota rifle has GOOD nuts.

A nut transplant on all C-clip rifles is in order.

Daga, according to my Blue Book, CZ importation went as follows:

Pre-1994: Actions Arms Ltd. of Philadelphia, PA
July 1, 1994-1996: Magnum Research of Minneapolis
1996-present: CZ-USA, first in California and now Kansas City
It also mentions Century International Arms as importing some models on a limited basis, and I recall Bauska of Montana importing some back before '94.

I agree that the C-clip is BAD news and exactly the kind of cost-cutting that caused me to switch from Winchester to CZ in the first place. I need two of the old nut-style retainers, to retrofit to my rifles.

Edited to add: The Minnesota is still pictured in the instruction manual that came with my American, but I don't believe it's still imported, and I have no idea if they even make it anymore.

Best,
Joe

[ 09-08-2003, 05:23: Message edited by: nextjoe ]

Joe,
Thanks for the info. It appears that my 270 Win is a CZ 550 Standard, with a three-position side safety instead of the two-position pictured on the Minnesota. Or maybe the Minnesota was just that, without a "Minnesota" stamped on the sidewall? Anyway, no sights on the 23.6" (600 mm) barrel that is 0.600" at the muzzle which seems to be like the Minnesota, with straight combed slim stock.

I have been and still am a Winchester fan too, but sure love those CZ's. They are flat out like a lizard drinkin' accurate! The dinky C-clip can be fixed with new parts #19 and #20. Where for art they? We await. Luckily I only need one set.

This site is excellent for tips on the guns.

Cheers!

Daga,

thanks for the tips on bolt dis-assembly. On the weekend I will have a muck around with my rifles and see what I have. I will report back.

Daga have you had your 9.3 cz bedded ?? Whats your opinion on the 9.3 cz set up with the dual crossbolts and barrel lug compared to the magnums ?? I think it's better.

PC,
No worries, mate. Just be sure to keep your finger away from the trigger while cocking and closing the bolt, then with the little disassembly plunger depressed, open the bolt again and withdraw it.

Since my 9.3x62 put 3 shots into about 1/3 MOA for first three shots at 100 yards, I was impressed, unreal for a full stock. I haven't had the heart to mess with its bedding yet. It is a Full Stock Lux with a C-clip nut.

The standard barrel recoil lug and dual crossbolts from the factory (fore and aft of magazine box) of your piece is a definite improvement over the way the 550 Magnums are done.

The FS Lux doesn't have a barrel lug at all, but does have the crossbolts fore and aft of box, and no plastic anywhere.

I only have one CZ needing a nut transplant, and it happens to be the 9.3x62. No loose nuts please!
Edit for clarity.

Aloha

[ 09-09-2003, 05:16: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Mine is a full stock 7x64. I checked the firing pin and there seems to be a large knurled bolt holding the spring. I guess mine has the nut. Also the parts list shows that also. Mine has the three position safety.

Boy do I feel stupid. Mine does have the C-Clip. It is so small you cannot see it with 65 year old eyes. Not a good deal. My manual showes the other parts, not the c clip. Has anyone gotten replacement parts.

CZ 550 Varmit Serial # F5xxx. All metal.

And it has the clip (note my crooked red arrow)

Thanks for the picture.

My manual shows the two nut system, also. But that's not what they put on my rifle.

David

Bill,
Good camera and photography to show that C-clip.

That C-clip sure is some high class form of Loc-tite, NOT!

I sent an email to CZ attaching that picture and pasting a link to this thread.

Bill,
Thanks for your efforts in pioneering the CZ nut transplant. Christian Barnard ain't got nuttin' on you!

TCG,
They just load the trucks and shippem out, is how I see it. I don't think anyone has an answer to your question just yet. Seems like the problem has not been dealt with by CZ overseas or in Kansas as yet. Who knows? Until notice is given by the pipeline, you are best off just buying off the shelf, having inspected the firing pin at the store. This is gonna hurt CZ sales for sure, until they rectify the problem with some amends to past and future customers. They need to bust a nut getting on this one.

Okay, thanks.

Bust a nut... I cringe everytime I hear that term for some reason...

Here is the answer from CZ

Subject: RE: CZ firing pin spring retaining c clip

I dont think one incident of the clip coming off and the nut unscrewing
would constitute a need for concern. .It is a good idea to
check your firing pin nut, to insure it is screwed forward (clockwise as
you are shooting)all of the way against the clip. This will trap the clip
inside of the groove and prevent loss under recoil. This must always be
done after disassembly of the firing pin, as well.
If the clip is propperly seated you should not be able to un-screw the nut
any farther forward than the clip location (by hand). If this is not the
case and the clip pops out of the groove then the nut must be backed-off
and the clip re-positioned, then the nut jammed against the clip, as
before. Note: If the nut is not against the clip, it may allow the clip
come loose under recoil.
It is still not clear whether the one individual had ever taken the
assembly apart or not.

I am shocked at the response from CZ-USA. I therefore sent them the following:

Gentlemen,

A major discussion of a modification you have made to the firing pins of CZ 550 and 550 Safari Actions can be found at:

http://www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=003861

As of 2:15 pm 9/09/03 CDT, the last post in the string was:

Bill Mc
One Of Us
Member # 6742
posted 09-09-2003 18:33 ��� �� �� �� �� � � �� ��
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the answer from CZ
Subject: RE: CZ firing pin spring retaining c clip
I dont think one incident of the clip coming off and the nut unscrewing
would constitute a need for concern. .It is a good idea to
check your firing pin nut, to insure it is screwed forward (clockwise as
you are shooting)all of the way against the clip. This will trap the clip
inside of the groove and prevent loss under recoil. This must always be
done after disassembly of the firing pin, as well.
If the clip is propperly seated you should not be able to un-screw the nut
any farther forward than the clip location (by hand). If this is not the
case and the clip pops out of the groove then the nut must be backed-off
and the clip re-positioned, then the nut jammed against the clip, as
before. Note: If the nut is not against the clip, it may allow the clip
come loose under recoil.
It is still not clear whether the one individual had ever taken the
assembly apart or not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 96 | From: North Georgia | Registered: Dec 2001 �|� IP: Logged

If this is the official CZ-USA company position on this issue, I can not believe you have heard what we are saying. I will take it upon myself to make it crystal clear:

1) The CZ 550 rifles were fast growing a reputation as a fine basic platform for the creation of dangerous game rifles even though they require quite extensive stock work to survive the heavy recoil of calibers like .416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag, and .458 Lott. With that work, many fine rifles have been created and gone into the field as trusted companions on dangerous hunts. Many lighter caliber rifles went into the field as they came from the factory and served their owners well.

2) The quality of the CZ 550 bolt rifles has put a real dent in sales of other factory standard rifles like Winchester and Ruger in these larger calibers.

3) The using community considers the change of the method of holding the firing pin spring from two nuts to that utilizing a single nut and a small clip to be unacceptable and to render the CZ 550 inappropriate for use in hunting animals that fight back with tooth, hoof, and horn. Your failure to remedy this design flaw will result in markedly reduces sales of these rifles, cast a pall on the resale value of many existing rifles, and confirm a belief that the company simply chooses not to listen to its customers ... very unfortunate but unavoidable outcomes.

Sincerely,

Michael Starling, Ph.D.
A satisfied owner of an early CZ 550 in .416 Rigby, who is now wondering if he will buy another CZ rifle.

I think that an important fact for the CZ Reps to get from this thread is that although it may only be two pages long, there are literally thousands of current and future CZ owners that read and take heed, even if they don't post a response.

I checked the firing pin of my Win M70 XTR (post 64) 300 win mag today.
It has a c-clip but it is much, much larger and is squared off (not complety round like the CZ clip) plus it sits in a much deeper groove.
Same type of idea, but winchester, even in the much criticised post 64 design, applied it better.

If anyone owns one of these and has a digital camera, a picture is worth a thousand words. I do not have a digital camera. Sorry.

I am very disappointed in CZ's response and the C-clip.
I own a CZ 375 H&H and was about to buy my wife a cz 550fs in 6.5 and buy me a CZ 550 lux in 7x57, BUT I will not buy one until this issue is resolved.
May have to start looking at ruger, Sako and Tikka again.

David

Maybe all of us should send CZ-USA a copy of this post then maybe they will get the idea.

It took a 186 people at the Alamo to make a difference.

In fact I just clicked on the top of the page to send this to someone and sent it to INFO@CZ-USA.COM

[ 09-10-2003, 09:37: Message edited by: CoonDawg ]

Guys,

Here are the last two exchanges with the CZ-USA folks. Sadly, the smith is certainly taking the position that their design is fine, and that there is no significant field experience to indicate a real problem.

Everyone should make his/her own decision depending on their experience ... but this input makes it difficult to view a box stock CZ 550 rifle as an acceptable field piece. Will absolutely have to go to a smith first. The first smith creating a sound replacement part will be doing the community a real service.

I think any additional interaction with me would be counter productive. I hope others have more success in helping these folks understand.

Status: U
From: "Eric Morris" <info@cz-usa.com>
To: <mstarling@earthlink.net>
Subject: Fw: Fw: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:31:30 -0500
X-Priority: 3
X-Rcpt-To: <mstarling@earthlink.net>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Eagleshield" <gunsmith@cz-usa.com>
To: "'Eric Morris'" <info@cz-usa.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 2:43 AM
Subject: RE: Fw: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention

> It would serve anyone who carries a weapon into the field to insure that
> it is in good working order. Those who do not follow this rule can blame
no
> one but themselves. Good luck and good shooting.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Morris [SMTP:info@cz-usa.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:54 PM
> To: Mike Eagleshield
> Subject: Fw: Fw: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "m. k. starling" <mstarling@earthlink.net>
> To: "Eric Morris" <info@cz-usa.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention
>
>
> > Sir,
> >
> > This concern began with an actual occasion in which a failure to fire
> > under challenging circumstances in the field DID occur.
> >
> > I will simply tell you that perception of reason to be concerned is
> > very important. You can, indeed, choose to be "take the moral high
> > ground" based on your beliefs and analysis of the design. Might be
> > wise to remember that you do not make the purchasing decisions.
> >
> > (Seems foolish to endanger a very nice market niche that already has
> > very strong customer loyalty over a cost lowering modification in
> > design ... especially since that customer base genuinely wants you to
> > be successful and would likely not have a problem paying the $5
> > additional cost that might result.)
> >
> > Personally, I have already chosen to take a pass on another CZ 550
> > (in .375 H&H) as a result of this discussion. I will simply start
> > looking for a design that has a lesser chance of potential failure
> > and a company that seems to care.
> >
> >
> > Michael Starling, Ph.D.
> > (Lucky enough to have acquired an early CZ 550,
> > now looking for a different supplier)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Mike Eagleshield" <gunsmith@cz-usa.com>
> > >To: "'Eric Morris'" <info@cz-usa.com>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:02 AM
> > >Subject: RE: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention
> > >
> > >
> > >> These are valid concerns, and a report has been made back to the
> factory
> > >> about the issue. Since I have nothing to do with design
> > >> or manufacturing of these products, this is all that I can do for
> now.
> As
> > >> gunsmith in-charge of warranty service I have only recived
> > >> one bolt back claiming the clip was loose. On further inspection, I
> was
> > >not
> > >> able to screw the nut past the clip by hand on this bolt either. I
am
> left
> > >> with a "why fix it if its not broken" frame of mind and until
someone
> can
> > >> convince me that these things are unscrewing themselves all over the
> > >world,
> > >> I will stand behind that frame of mind. I invite anyone with a
> legitimate
> > >> complaint to feel free to call me
> > >> toll free at 1-800-955-4486(mon-fri). If I had time to read all of
> the
> > >> major on-line discussions on our products, I would have little time
> left
> > >to
> > >> devote to customer support. I will leave the dicussions to those of
> you
> > >who
> > >> seem to have plenty of time to devote the the subject. And If the
> "using
> > >> community" has any real proof to back up their claims, let them
> present it
> > >> to me. If not, please let them limit their personal opinions and
> comments
> > >> to the discussion group.
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Eric Morris [SMTP:info@cz-usa.com]
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:46 PM
> > >> To: Mike Eagleshield
> > >> Subject: Fw: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Michael K. Starling" <mstarling@earthlink.net>
> > >> To: <info@cz-usa.com>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:40 PM
> > >> Subject: From WWW: CZ 550 Firing Pin Spring Retention
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > This message has been sent from your website
> > >> >
> > >> > Gentlemen,
> > >> >
> > >> > A major discussion of a modification you have
> > >> > made to the firing pins of CZ 550 and 550 Safari
> > >> > Actions can be found at:
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?u
> > >> > bb=get_topic;f=16;t=003861
> > >> >
> > >> > As of 2:15 pm 9/08/03 CDT, the last post in the
> > >> > string was:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Bill Mc
> > >> > One Of Us
> > >> > Member # 6742
> > >> > posted 09-09-2003 18:33
> > >> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > >> > -------------------
> > >> > Here is the answer from CZ
> > >> > Subject: RE: CZ firing pin spring retaining c clip
> > >> > I dont think one incident of the clip coming off
> > >> > and the nut unscrewing
> > >> > would constitute a need for concern. .It is a good
> > >> > idea to
> > >> > check your firing pin nut, to insure it is screwed
> > >> > forward (clockwise as
> > >> > you are shooting)all of the way against the clip.
> > >> > This will trap the clip
> > >> > inside of the groove and prevent loss under
> > >> > recoil. This must always be
> > >> > done after disassembly of the firing pin, as well.
> > > > > If the clip is propperly seated you should not be
> > >> > able to un-screw the nut
> > >> > any farther forward than the clip location (by
> > >> > hand). If this is not the
> > >> > case and the clip pops out of the groove then the
> > >> > nut must be backed-off
> > >> > and the clip re-positioned, then the nut jammed
> > >> > against the clip, as
> > >> > before. Note: If the nut is not against the clip, it
> > >> > may allow the clip
> > >> > come loose under recoil.
> > >> > It is still not clear whether the one individual
> > >> > had ever taken the
> > >> > assembly apart or not.
> > >> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > >> > -------------------
> > >> > Posts: 96 | From: North Georgia | Registered:
> > >> > Dec 2001 | IP: Logged
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If this is the official CZ-USA company position on
> > >> > this issue, I can not believe you have heard what
> > >> > we are saying. I will take it upon myself to
> > >> > make it crystal clear:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1) The CZ 550 rifles were fast growing a
> > >> > reputation as a fine basic platform for the
> > >> > creation of dangerous game rifles even though
> > >> > they require quite extensive stock work to
> > >> > survive the heavy recoil of calibers like .416
> > >> > Rigby, 458 Win Mag, and .458 Lott. With that
> > >> > work, many fine rifles have been created and
> > >> > gone into the field as trusted companions on
> > >> > dangerous hunts. Many lighter caliber rifles
> > >> > went into the field as they came from the factory
> > >> > and served their owners well.
> > >> >
> > >> > 2) The quality of the CZ 550 bolt rifles has put a
> > >> > real dent in sales of other factory standard rifles
> > >> > like Winchester and Ruger in these larger
> > >> > calibers.
> > >> >
> > >> > 3) The using community considers the change of
> > >> > the method of holding the firing pin spring from
> > >> > two nuts to that utilizing a single nut and a small
> > >> > clip to be unacceptable and to render the CZ 550
> > >> > inappropriate for use in hunting animals that
> > >> > fight back with tooth, hoof, and horn. Your
> > >> > failure to remedy this design flaw will result in
> > >> > markedly reduced sales of these rifles, cast a
> > >> > pall on the resale value of many existing rifles,
> > >> > and confirm a belief that the company simply
> > >> > chooses not to listen to its customers ... very
> > >> > unfortunate but unavoidable outcomes.
> > >> >
> > >> > Sincerely,
> > >> >
> > >> > Michael Starling, Ph.D.
> > >> > A satisfied owner of an early CZ 550 in .416
> > >> > Rigby, who is now wondering if he will buy
> > >> > another CZ rifle.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Michael K. Starling
> > >> > <phone number edited out>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>

[ 09-11-2003, 20:47: Message edited by: mstarling ]

Sounds like CZ USA needs to take a refresher course in public relations. I definitely see this a "black mark" on their product and their services.

Well, I checked old F17XX (.416) last night, and it has the clip. Now, having read the importer's reply, I'm going to go back and see exactly how that thing works. It almost sounds like they're saying the circlip/pubic hair/whatever has a definite proper location. Whether this is in relation to the nut or to the firing threads is not clear, but I have a suspicion it might be upon careful myopic examination.

I'll hold off on forming an opinion until the exam is complete.

Later.

Recono

I believe the clip will work on mine. If I had a "kicker" I might opt for another locking nut.

When you fasten a nut against a clip or another nut, it will not loosen. That's method of removing studs from an engine block. Lock two nuts together and neither will turn.

If you take that firing pin assembly apart, you must put the clip on and then tighten the nut against the clip.

Still would prefer the double nuts. But the clip means a lighter firing pin assemebly which is faster lock time.

[ 09-11-2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Bill Mc ]

I don't think my 550 has the clip. Thanks.

The head of CZ USA is Alice Poluchova. Her email address is alice@CZ-usa.com.

You know what to do.

Okie John

Shame on you John

How many do we send? I have 5 different e-mail accounts.

Okie John and CoonDawg,
Thanks for the suggestions, I will do so too. Too good a product to let be destroyed by a puny C-clip.
Aloha

Recono,
That is how I am thinking about it too. But that might mean we should check the C-clip before every shot. Hard to do in a rapid fire, followup, or charge situation.

So until the proper parts are available?

Anything wrong with this?:

Degrease the nut, C-clip and firing pin threads, get everything positioned snuggly and saturated with blue loctite, let it dry, then go about business with a little bit more confidence?

Sort of like being only a little bit pregnant, eh?

After checking my 9.3X62 CZ American a week ago I found it to have the "weak little clip" mentioned. I called CZ and talked to Mike (CZ gunsmith) and asked for a fix before something bad happened at a real bad time. He said it should have a groove cut deeper into the firing pin and a heavier "C" clip installed. And he mentioned my rifle was still under warranty and to send the bolt to them. I sent it to CZ that afternoon. Two or three days later the bolt was back and the fix was not a deeper grooved firing pin with a larger "C" clip, but a really nice locking type nut (heavy duty) that I think is like the Bruno 602. My hat is off again to CZ for their timely return of my bolt and also for the fine modification on it. They are truely a great company to deal with and have a fine product for the price. And all it took was a call to them and about 3 days later all was well in hunting land again. Mike

I think if the nut is secured against the c clip, then it will be OK. If the nut is not tight against the clip, the clip can fall off and the nut can further loosen.

CZ said that the clip must be in place and then the nut tightened against the clip. that locks the nut and the clip in place.

If one found an e-clip that could replace the c-clip, would'nt that void any factory warranty? Also I would much rather have a locking nut reguardless of lock time wheather a couple of thousand miles away from home or at the deer lease.Having confidence in and not having to worry about your rifles functioning affords you more time to be sure of shot placement and a good hunt. I am also worried with the CZ smiths response, not very cutomer friendly.I beleive if the problem is not remidied CZ will find out the hard way in declining sales.

ACTION! I got an email from the head of CZ-USA. She'll visit the factory in early October and have word for us on her return. Let's go hunt for a few weeks and bring this all up again after Halloween.

Here's something to think about: If they deliver, they'll get the loyalty of intelligent, articulate consumers who generate enough respect to influence their peers. They also get access to an R&D resource that would take years and millions of dollars to duplicate.

If I worked in the sporting goods business, I'd be curious. Here's a company that works with an online community--complete with dangerous loudmouths--to improve a product and more closely tailor it to its market, thus selling more and building good word-of-mouth. This is a transaction with CZ, and it could be worth millions in the long term.

If they deliver...

yours in progress, Okie John.

How easy would it be to replace the clip with a lock nut? Do CZ use a standard thread or some thing a bit more obscure?

Regards,

Pete