quote:

Solids are for guaranteed penetration, even in .308".

Yes, they are used in Africa. I think I remember they was some guy who famously used the 7x57 to brain shoot lots of elephants. That doesn't qualify the 7x57 as a brown bear defense weapon.


Also, FMJ and what causes it to tumble is irrelevant insofar as bear defense goes, but in the above chart, which I don't understand, I don't see the 7.62x39. It is my understanding that the soviets designed the 123 gr FMJ with a tip that bends easily and the short bullet is not real stable to start with. So they designed it to tumble. Also, they achieved the tumbling somehow with the steel core in the 7.62x54R. Anyway, I don't have reference to some "scientific study" on that. It's just my understanding based on memory of stuff I've read.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Also, I note in the synopsis of the hunting and trapping regs "Where the use of a shotgun is allowed for hunting or trapping big game, an unplugged shotgun holding more than 2 cartridges and firing single projectiles only (slug) may be used."

That's interesting. First, the synopsis is about hunting or trapping regs, and I presume specifically. But they specifically allow a shotgun with slugs to hold as many "cartridges" as it will hold, which is four in the tube on my shotgun.

Also, I presume that since they allow the shotgun with slugs to be unplugged for hunting and trapping, they allow it for other lawful uses, such as in my van while I'm in transit.

Must be so, since the last time I entered Canada through the Montana route, they inspected my shotgun and it is easily determined that it is not plugged, and if asked, I would have said so. They also knew that I loaded it with Brenneke slugs, although it was not loaded when presented for inspection.

Also, 305 mm calculates to about 12". I don't understand that regulation's purpose in the context. Does that mean that they allow shotguns with 12" barrel, and a pistol grip, with no butt stock? Such a firearm is designed to be fired with both hands. Practically any firearm can be fired with one hand, although not designed for that purpose.

A bullet that doesn't track straight as it penetrates isn't exactly reliable. Tumbles as it fragments to limit penetration or deflects on heavy bone. Have heard of it happening on game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5_mmUTxlq4

I don't know why a solid wouldn't tumble or deflect in the right conditions.


Anyway, in the world of bear defense, here's a Barnes in ballistic gel. Those who claim that bullet rotation in and of itself doesn't have energy should see this. Anyone who claims that the mushroom petals on the Barnes TSX don't contribute to the wound should see this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQx2eHpDVnE

Magine Enigam, There are those of us here, that “believe”....that the earth is flat”! Logic, photographic evidence, and hunter sucess reports, mean little! memtb

There are two sets of laws that apply
The hunting regulations ( each of the provinces are different) and the second is the law on firearms which is Federal however Quebec play to a different set of rules yet.

Firearms are classified in classes either is prohibited, restricted and unrestricted !

Make very sure that the gun you are to bring in does not fall in either the prohibited or restricted class because for the stated purpose of "defence" from anything this could land you in trouble.

As for the hunting regs of BC if you are using your shotgun for hunting with shot it has to be plugged if its a pump or semi auto. 2 in the tube one in the chamber . ( but watch out that is a loaded gun so illegal to have on any vehicle or ATV / UTV or boat under motorized propulsion )

The game cops carry as probe and they will measure the magazine tube capacity with it.
( one of the guys that hunt with us got caught a year or two ago and was fined ! his old model Winchester he had for years and years was never plugged and he did not even know it until the game cop stuck his thingy down the port )

Slugs are classified as single projectiles in BC hence you can load up to as many as your slugger allows. Only caveat then if the MU you are hunting in is bow /shot only then this would be illegal.

The interesting part to all of this here is that some US folk say because of all of this regulation and BS they would not come to Canada to hunt.

Well the reverse is also true, As a non US citizen entering the USA with guns to hunt is even more onerous because your BATFE are a pain to deal with in that you are required to apply for permits ahead of time.

A heavy caliber flat nose solid should be more prone to track straight because it doesn't deform or shed weight as it penetrates.

Above a certain impact speed the TSX petals disintegrate resulting in bullet weight loss and reduced penetration, and a reduced diameter wound channel. A .416 300gr TSX at 2900 and 2400 fps impact speeds recovered from heavy game.

Off course petals or bullet expansion plays a role in the energy equation. They increase direct contact with tissue ie crush and they increase drag hence a larger Temporary cavitation effect.

The issue is rotation and its contribution.

The bullet motion consists of two directions of motion, translational (forward ) and rotational.

Though the bullet is doing many RPM, which seems impressive at face value , to compare we must devolve RPM to FPS to compare to the FPS of forward motion. FPS then derived from calculating the velocity of a spot on the outside surface of the projectile ( this is strictly not correct as rotational velocity of a solid body is measured in radians per second , or similar..... but it should suffice to go for the velocity of a point on the outside surface of the bullet )

Once we have done that we see that suddenly a RPM value of say 220,000 rpm only gets you a few hundred FPS and based on that the commensurate Foot pounds of energy due to rotation is way less than that generated from the forward motion.

And more importantly is the Foot pounds of energy generated from rotation, though small relative to the translational energy equating to any contribution to the displacement of target material !

That bullet on the left seems to me to clearly NOT be a Barnes TSX. That looks a lot like a lead core exposed, and there is no reason to believe from the condition of the spent bullets that they did not track straight and penetrate and mushroom as they were designed to do. And perhaps more importantly, they were recovered, so it's a safe presumption that they didn't exit, but did the Newton dirty deed inside the target.

Both are .416 300gr TSX's - these are mine - and goes to show these have limitations and don't always expand as advertised.

quote:

Originally posted by memtb:
Magine Enigam, There are those of us here, that “believe”....that the earth is flat”! Logic, photographic evidence, and hunter sucess reports, mean little! memtb

Evidently, even the law means little when up against the "belief" in solids.

The prime example is the 400 gr Barnes Buster. It is obviously meant to satisfy those who cling to the belief that a solid is best "for the deep penetration and long wound channel". That bullet is obviously meant to thwart the law against using solids for hunting. They even go so far as to call it a non-solid, but its design is to act like a solid.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Both are .416 300gr TSX's - these are mine - and goes to show these have limitations and don't always expand as advertised.

It's good to know you didn't make a mistake.

2900 fps vs 2400 fps - that's sorta useful info.

But I'll bet good money that they kill an elk for example so well that it would be impossible to tell the difference.

I'm glad to see the TSX opens up that well at 2400 fps. That may give me a clue on how to use those I have.

Also, as you probably know, the old Nosler partition notoriously shed the front half at reasonable impact speed, and if pushed too fast the back half would suffer too. Yet they were touted as the great hunting bullet, deep penetration etc. The front half blew off, leaving the lower SD rear half to continue on.

Looks to me like more of that Barnes is left to continue on after the petals shed than compared to some of the pictures I've seen of the Partition.

As you know, the Swift A-frame doesn't shed its front half.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
That bullet on the left seems to me to clearly NOT be a Barnes TSX. That looks a lot like a lead core exposed, and there is no reason to believe from the condition of the spent bullets that they did not track straight and penetrate and mushroom as they were designed to do. And perhaps more importantly, they were recovered, so it's a safe presumption that they didn't exit, but did the Newton dirty deed inside the target.

Actually, those bullets look like several of the TSX and TTSX that I have recovered. Here are a couple of pix:


The four bullets are .416" 350gn TSX from buffalo and hartebeest. The "sheared" bullets are from high impact velocities (+2600fps). We tend to load our Rigbys to 2800+ fps.


This last picture shows a bullet taken from a buffalo, and the case from which it was fired. The .416" 350gnTSX lost its petals as it smashed into the face of a buffalo, an inch or so under an eye, and was recovered at the base of the neck/shoulder area. After the petals blew, the remaining shank itself also deformed and started to form a secondary, mini-mushroom. Again, 2825fps, maybe 2850fps, is not too hot out of a Rigby case, as the rounded Fed215M primer testifies.

All of these bullets would handle a bear nicely, even if slowed down to 416 Ruger (and traditional Rigby) muzzle energies.

Looks like excellent performance to me.


Did the buff die, or require a follow-up shot?

It's interesting that you choose the 350 gr TSX bullet, and run it so fast, when they make a 400 gr bullet.

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-lead-free-box-of-50

PS:
And for the record, here is a 416 350gn TTSX, also taken from a buffalo.


This bullet, too, developed a mushroom from velocity. Now, I'm wondering if the TTSX has thinner petals because of the plastic tip and wider hollow point, so that the mushroom deforms into a more traditional shape rather than the 'cutting-petals' of a classic TSX. Or perhaps, this, too, is a secondary mushroom after the initial petals flew off. I don't know where that bullet is anymore, but I seem to recall that it did lose a little weight. (The bullet was from one of the cases on the left. The case on the right was a 338WM used for a finishing shot behind the head. The buffalo was still alive and thrashing its head after two lung shots, the second of which was near the spine.)

It's nice to have large critters at a angle so that a person can collect souvenirs.

Just a few notes on the Barnes Buster .458-caliber (for .45-70s).

Last year, in late November (after the deer season and near the end of the bear season) I tested a bunch of .458" bullets in very tough media, including the .458/400gr Buster. I shot 8 bullets in all of which 7 were distinct. There were two 350gr TSX's, but one had been slightly modified (by me) with a slightly larger cavity that weighed 342 grs. Apart from the 400gr Buster and the two 350gr TSX's, the others were a 500gr Speer GS, a 500gr Hornady Int. RN, a 480gr Hornady DGX, a 350gr Hornady RN and a 330gr Barnes solid (no longer in production).

The test media consisted of 2 cardboard boxes jammed with hard cover books and glossy magazines. These were placed back to back with a 1.5" piece of spruce plank between them and another piece of the same plank backing the last box. Complete penetration would involve 15.5 inches.

The location was in one of my hunting areas (Crown Land) on the side of a ridge so any bullets passing through the media would soon be interrupted by collision with a huge bolder or a tree.

Range from muzzle to the first box was 3 yards.

Rifle was my #1 Ruger LT in .45-70. Some loads were mild, others moderate and three at full speed, or nearly so. Those were the 400gr Buster and the two 350 TSX's.

The following represents the order of firing:
The Speer 500 GS was launched at 1750 fps. Impact about 1700. It penetrated 6 inches of first box and retained 62% (310 grs)
The 480 DGX: 1785 (same load as the Speer - far from max). Penetrated everything straight-line, leaving a caliber size hole.
The 500 Hor: (old load before chamber was modified) 2015 fps - exploded inside first box. None of its remains found.
The 400 Buster: MV est 2250 fps (not max). Penetration was complete in a straight line, with bullet-size hole. No fragments. Bullet lost in background. Note: The planks were there to witness if bullets expanded or veered off.
The 330gr Barnes Banded: MV= 2400. Penetration was complete with indications of slamming the last plank sideways.
The 350 Hornady RN: MV= 2250 fps. Stopped by first box at 4.5-inches. Flattened and lost core.
The 350 TSX @ 2470 fps. Penetration was through everything. Lots of damage to 1st plank and retrieved against the back wall of the last box. Didn't penetrate the final plank. Retained 350grs. One petal was nearly sheared off.
The 350 TSX (same load as the 350 TSX above - modified to 342 grs) Complete exit of everything, including the edge of the final plank. Lost in background. Damage was awesome.

Take from it what you will, but the 400 Buster had no appearance of major deformation in straight-line penetration through all at an impact velocity of about 2200 fps.

Note: this test was NOT to simulate shooting soft-skinned game, but more like hitting bone.

One confirmation, among several, was how tough those 350 TSX's are. They need speed, and plenty of it at impact for full expansion.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Looks like excellent performance to me.


Did the buff die, or require a follow-up shot?

It's interesting that you choose the 350 gr TSX bullet, and run it so fast, when they make a 400 gr bullet.

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-lead-free-box-of-50

The buffalo was still alive when we approached so I gave it a follow up shot.

the choice of 350 grain was two-fold.
a. I wanted a similar weight solid and the CZ Ribgy twist of 16.5" is on the slow side for a 400-grain monolithic solid.
b. We like to use the same bullet for plains game. For example, a 202-yard little oribi is easily handled with a fast bullet and flat trajectory:


Trajectory is about dead on at 200 yards when sighted in at 2" for 100 yards.

I love the looks of a 45 caliber Barnes Buster exit wound.

Yes, exit wounds. I'll never forget that exit hole in that big AK moose, from the 400 gr so-called bonded bear claw. It was about the size of my fist. The bullet had actually poked a hole right through the heart, and it was not shredded or blown up, just a hole about two inches in diameter. I really wanted that bullet to keep, but it was a goner. That moose wanted to leave, but only went about five steps, fell into a depression, rolled upside down and its legs moving as though it was walking. Anyone who has shot a moose probably knows that they are notorious for just standing there after a fatal hit, and will finally go down after a while. With The 458, the knowledge of a fatal hit and the actuality of it reconcile.

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-boat-tail-box-of-50

Now I see that they make a tipped 350 gr Barnes .416 - the TTSX.

Anyway, see the reviews in the links to the 400 gr bullet above and the 350 gr this post. Interesting.

Alf,

So, to be Canada-Compliant,
I can't use the .729-cal/1085-grain brass No-Bozo Darwin "solid" slug, according to the Mounties.
OK, I'll have to do a hardcast .730-cal/1350-grain Darwin Slug in the 12ga-3.5".
And no problems with a pair of 550-grain hardcast Bear Balls in each plastic hull either,
as long as I plug my pump magazine, or use it in a SXS.

Anyone saying those are not practical in an 8-pound shotgun must be a recoil whimp.
Heck, I have a 5-pound (5.00 lbs) 12ga-3.5" shotgun, a smoothbore, full choke, 23" barrel, with rifle sights.
I handload it with 1.777 ounces of No.7-1/2 shot in 3-inch hulls for pesky squirrels.
About like the 8-pounders with Bear Balls, for recoil.
Piece of cake.

Some people refuse to consider an alternative reality to the one in their privately constructed parallel universes.

In my universe, the one shared by anyone who can read this internet forum:

The rotational kinetic energy of a rifle bullet represents about half a percent of what comes from the bullet's forward motion at muzzle velocity.
At the rate of spin of 1:12", like with a .375 H&H, the spinning bullet will turn one revolution in traveling 1 foot.
The revolutions per second are therefore the same as the bullet speed in feet per second at muzzle exit.
Low rotational energy and very few revolutions inside target make for ineffective use of bullet as buzzsaw.
It might be pretty, cavitating through ordnance gelatin on high speed video, however.
Do the one or two turns of petals even touch the media inside the cavitation?
I could not get the video to open.

Some denizens of some parallel universes, let us call them Bizzarro Universe Tenet Holders, aka BUTH-heads,
also decry the Barnes Buster bullet for copper fouling, though they have never even fired one.
Yet the same BUTH-head will find no fault of copper fouling with the Swift A-Frame of soft and sticky copper jacket bonded to soft lead,
which no doubt obturates very well, from their partition to rearward, also well known to jack up pressures and retard velocities,
compared to many other bullets.
Bizzarre!

Rip ...

Bob, thanks for sharing:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Just a few notes on the Barnes Buster .458-caliber (for .45-70s).
... I tested a bunch of .458" bullets in very tough media, including the .458/400gr Buster. I shot 8 bullets in all of which 7 were distinct. There were two 350gr TSX's, but one had been slightly modified (by me) with a slightly larger cavity that weighed 342 grs. Apart from the 400gr Buster and the two 350gr TSX's, the others were a 500gr Speer GS, a 500gr Hornady Int. RN, a 480gr Hornady DGX, a 350gr Hornady RN and a 330gr Barnes solid (no longer in production).

The test media consisted of 2 cardboard boxes jammed with hard cover books and glossy magazines. These were placed back to back with a 1.5" piece of spruce plank between them and another piece of the same plank backing the last box. Complete penetration would involve 15.5 inches.

A tough, first-order medium, more akin to bone, yes, as you said.

Range from muzzle to the first box was 3 yards.

Some might say too close to allow the bullets to "go to sleep." Some would prefer a 25-yard impact range as more realistic yet practical.

Rifle was my #1 Ruger LT in .45-70. Some loads were mild, others moderate and three at full speed, or nearly so. Those were the 400gr Buster and the two 350 TSX's.

And the winners were:

The 400 Buster: MV est 2250 fps (not max). Penetration was complete in a straight line, with bullet-size hole. No fragments. Bullet lost in background. Note: The planks were there to witness if bullets expanded or veered off.

This medium would not be has hard on initial impact as a simple water bucket.
Hard, dry, first-order media might do little to expand the pinhole FN. The Iron WaterBoard Buffalo would be needed to sort out impact velocity needed to expand the bullet and catch it for observation of expansion.
That would be a bit closer to game simulation with a train of boards and waterbuckets.
2400 to 2500 fps ought to be a practical top end impact velocity, attainable in the .458 WIN or Lott.

The 330gr Barnes Banded: MV= 2400. Penetration was complete with indications of slamming the last plank sideways.

The lightweight "Ogived-Flat-Point" wobbled and ran out of steam near the end.

The 350 TSX @ 2470 fps. Penetration was through everything. Lots of damage to 1st plank and retrieved against the back wall of the last box. Didn't penetrate the final plank. Retained 350grs. One petal was nearly sheared off.

Excellent.

The 350 TSX (same load as the 350 TSX above - modified to 342 grs) Complete exit of everything, including the edge of the final plank. Lost in background. Damage was awesome.

As planned. Enlarged hollow point, weakened petal attachment a bit. The petals were shed and the bullet became an FN penetrator.
Energy dump by petals must be a real thing for wounding effect, and it occurred early on,
while the rest of the bullet retained enough energy to carry on in a straight line.

Take from it what you will, but the 400 Buster had no appearance of major deformation in straight-line penetration through all at an impact velocity of about 2200 fps.

Higher-order media testing needed, at a range of velocities.

One confirmation, among several, was how tough those 350 TSX's are. They need speed, and plenty of it at impact for full expansion.

Very true, the old saw that is not intuitive to some: Sectional density is what drives expansion.
Lighter bullets need higher impact velocity than a heavier bullet with otherwise same construction.


RX: 2700 fps MV for the .458/350-gr TSX and forget the hollowpoint enlargement.

Rip ...

quote:

Anyone saying those are not practical in an 8-pound shotgun must be a recoil whimp.

Recoil has little to do with declaring your handloaded shotgun shells not practical. First one has to buy molds and melting equipment and perhaps other equipment, such as lathe, and produce loads for which there is no lab tested data, all of which may at the least bulge a barrel.

All for some macho thing of shooting a massive hunk of lead, when there are proven alternatives that work better, and are readily available over the counter.

Your recipe is for the most dedicated only, not the casual or infrequent user of big bore. It's a specialized endeavor for the real nutz, and of limited use.

Of course an alternate reality exists for the most far out there zealot. More power to you, but your concoctions are not for me, and to think they are for general consumption is an indicator of foolishness and loss of touch in generally accepted reality.

I wouldn't fire one of your concoctions in a shotgun that I cared anything about from behind a barrier by tying a string to the trigger.

I'm fond of wildcats in rifles, and own three now, and have messed with several others over the years. But there are sensible limits, and IMO, you exceed those limits, and you're proud of it, or just blissfully ignorant.

I swear there is something "special" about dog mushers and those who make cast bullets. The explanation for cast bullet makers is too much breathing the fumes. I don't have an explanation for dog mushers.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
I swear there is something "special" about dog mushers and those who make cast bullets. The explanation for cast bullet makers is too much breathing the fumes. I don't have an explanation for dog mushers.

My blood lead level is essentially undetectable. Lead fumes come from leaded gasoline and internal combustion engines. Not from a melting pot.
Lead ingestion is usually from hands not washed before they go onto food or onto the cigarette butt, or thumbsucking.
My only point is that there are many things better than a .458 SOCOM or Brenneke slug for bear.
However the many better things are not BUTH-approved.
Enough, already, about that.
The fact of what you wondered about .308-caliber solids speaks volumes. The 220-grain RN FMJ is obviously a lot older than you are.
Dog mushers?
Well, that is just their choice of crazy.
Everybody is crazy about something, I am sure you will agree if you think about it.
Consider yourself.

Rip ...

At least we understand each other.

Maybe this is a case of it takes one to know one.

Also, something we can agree on:

"My only point is that there are many things better than a .458 SOCOM or Brenneke slug for bear."

Yet, the .458 SOCOM and the Brenneke slug are better than many, many alternatives.

And they are "practical"

I haven't bought a new rifle in a long time. I'm really looking forward to playing with my new SOCOM build. I've decided to try for the first time to put together the upper myself. I've bought the tools, and my new 4" forged vice arrived today. I'm still waiting on the Armalite barrel nut wrench.

If things go right, I'll get some hogs with it before spring, and post pictures.

To save time, I'll start with some factory loads. I'm sure that makes you cringe. But one must be "practical".

What Buffalo Bore 400 gr factory soft flat nose ammo do you recommend?

BTW, I have no idea whether the .308 220 gr FMJ or solid (not the same thing in my book) are older than I am. And the volumes it speaks is that such a bullet is off my radar, as irrelevant to anything I'm interested in, ever have been, or ever will be.

RIP;

Sorry, that was 5 yards, not 3.

There was no indication of bullet wobble. All holes through the front cardboard -- 3/16" thick -- were perfectly round, as were those through the front hardcover books pressing against the inside cardboard. Also, the 400 Buster and 480 DGX made perfectly round holes through the planks -- no evidence of losing stability. Only the 330 Barnes showed some evidence of a keyhole. The soft points were all destroyed or stopped within a few inches. The 500 Hornady "evaporated" inside the first box but flipped it upside down. It may have fallen out when that happened, but a careful search produced nada. Not even fragments were found though a search was made for any pieces of any bullet while sifting through the tiny bits of paper and cardboard at home after the fact.

One of my goals was to simulate quick shooting of a bear at close range. I had 1.25" black dots "painted" by a wide black marker as aiming points. These were more like "snap shots". The aiming point on a bear at 5 yards that was coming fast in my direction, or confronting me, would likely be the skull, somewhere between the eyes.

Water buckets were not practical at that distance from home, and then transporting them by hand to the location I used. As it turned out, I was already having major difficulty with plumbing around my heart, and consequent hard breathing. It did bring to light a serious problem that has since been corrected with a total of five stents. I feel twenty years younger. Today is my 83 rd birthday. It's hard to believe I've been on this planet that long.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I bought from an Alaska hunting guide his backup rifle for going into alder for wounded bear. He felt his 458 had more room in the magazine and he d feel better with more punch so he bored it out to a Lott. Says it worked well for him on charging bears.

Having been guiding for brown bears for nearly 40 years, and having dealt with way too many wounded bears in think pucker brush, I certainly understand the want/need for more power and don't criticize anyone for wishing for more gun. In fact I am setting up a 416 Ruger for a young guide who recently had his first experience and now wants something larger than his 375.
But, after having stopped numerous charging bears with everything from a 30-06 up through 9.3x62, 375's, 416's, 458's and the 505 Gibbs I can honestly say that the more I experimented with bigger rounds like the 505 and the 458 Lott the more impressed And happy I am with the standard 458 Win.
The larger, more powerful rounds may put bears down a little quicker, and keep them down a fraction of a second longer, they also have more recoil and are slower to get back into action. Which may not mean much if you make a solid hit, but if you don't and really need another quick shot ( which eventually WILL happen if you deal with enough big bears !!)

That also applies equally to those who carry handguns for protection from big bears.

My own observations re Grizzlys

Holy f****k ! that bear is fast !
Came around a corner in the side by side and surprised one. Don't know who got the biggest fright. I jammed the brake and literally skidded to a halt a few feet from the bear, he stood up towering above the side by side and then spun around taking off into willow brush . It was as if his loose skin and fur remained in place and the muscular body turned inside ! He took off crashing through the bush ! The speed with which it went down scared the hell out of me because if that bear decided to stay and fight there would have been no way I would even have gotten to my racked rifle and ammo !

I was literally shaking and my heart was in my throat !

I am constantly surprised by how fast , scary scary fast ! Grizzlies can cover ground and to boot through a tangle of buck brush that is seemingly impassible!


My belief is that if a bear is actually hunting a hunter there is little that can be done if the rifle or gun is actually not at the ready.

The second is their strength ! Shot a huge moose the day before and it took 3 of us to heave a hindquarter into a pannier on the pack horse..... this grizz plucked the hindquarter off the beam we had hung it and with it dragging between its forelegs made off with our meat up the side of a steep hill as if it was nothing !

Watched one root for a marmot digging up boulders and dirt like a high speed excavator !

I grew up in Africa with lions Elephant and shit and was never really scared in the bush, Grizzlies on the other hand , they scare me !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
My own observations re Grizzlys

Holy f****k ! that bear is fast !
Came around a corner in the side by side and surprised one. Don't know who got the biggest fright. I jammed the brake and literally skidded to a halt a few feet from the bear, he stood up towering above the side by side and then spun around taking off into willow brush . It was as if his loose skin and fur remained in place and the muscular body turned inside ! He took off crashing through the bush ! The speed with which it went down scared the hell out of me because if that bear decided to stay and fight there would have been no way I would even have gotten to my racked rifle and ammo !

I was literally shaking and my heart was in my throat !

I am constantly surprised by how fast , scary scary fast ! Grizzlies can cover ground and to boot through a tangle of buck brush that is seemingly impassible!


My belief is that if a bear is actually hunting a hunter there is little that can be done if the rifle or gun is actually not at the ready.

The second is their strength ! Shot a huge moose the day before and it took 3 of us to heave a hindquarter into a pannier on the pack horse..... this grizz plucked the hindquarter off the beam we had hung it and with it dragging between its forelegs made off with our meat up the side of a steep hill as if it was nothing !

Watched one root for a marmot digging up boulders and dirt like a high speed excavator !

I grew up in Africa with lions Elephant and shit and was never really scared in the bush, Grizzlies on the other hand , they scare me !

just curious... how many bear guides opt for a double? Seems to many in Africa they are indispensable, but are they common with bear guides? Would think the application is identical.

After seeing the PH in Tanzania (such a balmy clime) using daily elbow grease and constantly mentally sweating over rust prevention on his Heym .500 NE,
I doubt many would want to subject them to Alaskan surf & turf.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
To save time, I'll start with some factory loads. I'm sure that makes you cringe. But one must be "practical".
What Buffalo Bore 400 gr factory soft flat nose ammo do you recommend?

To be ultimately practical, if you want to shoot cast bullets, you need to learn to make your own.
Then you will not be ultimately dependent on Buffalo Bore.
Come to think of it, you must surely want to shoot cast bullets in your .458 WIN with short throat and slow twist.
That kind of tinkering with a .458 WIN is not desirable for use of 300-grain and heavier monometal/jacketed, for any recoil level you like,
low pressure, fast, and accurate, in long throat and 1:14" twist
Your rifle is a .458 Winchester Special, like Gil Sengel built, perfect for getting the most out of cast bullets.
Sort of like gelding the Triple Crown WINner and putting him out to pasture with no stud service.
But, still better for bear than a .458 SOCOM.

Rip ...

quote:

But, after having stopped numerous charging bears with everything from a 30-06 up through 9.3x62, 375's, 416's, 458's and the 505 Gibbs I can honestly say that the more I experimented with bigger rounds like the 505 and the 458 Lott the more impressed And happy I am with the standard 458 Win.
The larger, more powerful rounds may put bears down a little quicker, and keep them down a fraction of a second longer, they also have more recoil and are slower to get back into action. Which may not mean much if you make a solid hit, but if you don't and really need another quick shot ( which eventually WILL happen if you deal with enough big bears !!)

I couldn't agree more. In fact, that's why I rejected a .577 after building one. I found that the recoil forced me to take two steps backwards after each shot, a luxury not always available. I decided to stick with my .505, which I have been able to fire accurately repeatedly in tight situations. If a .30-'06 were the most powerful rifle I could fire repeatedly and accurately, then I would make do with it. Fortunately, it isn't.

I am always wondering if a fast follow up shot is more important then a more powerful first shot.

Take the 315gr hard cast 44 loads I shoot those at 1300fps or so are very slow to get back on target.

Compared to a 240gr at 1200 or a 315 at a 1000.

All give plenty of penetration.

Or a 416 350 gr at 2400 plus or the same bullet a 2200 follow up shots at 2200 are faster for sure.

So is it better to hit them a little harder the first shot or be able to smack them faster with the second.

After shooting hundreds of head of game I still haven't decided both have worked well for me.

I have hammered them on the first round and shot them more then once.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

But, after having stopped numerous charging bears with everything from a 30-06 up through 9.3x62, 375's, 416's, 458's and the 505 Gibbs I can honestly say that the more I experimented with bigger rounds like the 505 and the 458 Lott the more impressed And happy I am with the standard 458 Win.
The larger, more powerful rounds may put bears down a little quicker, and keep them down a fraction of a second longer, they also have more recoil and are slower to get back into action. Which may not mean much if you make a solid hit, but if you don't and really need another quick shot ( which eventually WILL happen if you deal with enough big bears !!)

I couldn't agree more. In fact, that's why I rejected a .577 after building one. I found that the recoil forced me to take two steps backwards after each shot, a luxury not always available. I decided to stick with my .505, which I have been able to fire accurately repeatedly in tight situations. If a .30-'06 were the most powerful rifle I could fire repeatedly and accurately, then I would make do with it. Fortunately, it isn't.

If I'd make the decision that I needed a " large bear defense rifle" I'd choose my Ruger 77 in 9.3x 62 with either the nosler or woodleigh bullet. It is a hammer, it is handy and it holds more than either my .375 or .458.
The 9.3 is my go to anyway for walking around outdoors here, but if it was strictly " bear defense" I'd still grab it.

quote:

The 9.3 is my go to anyway for walking around outdoors here

There are no flies on that choice.

In the last six months I sold both of my 9.3x62, which had sat in the gun safe for well over five years. The FN 9.3x62 used to be my go-to rifle for deer hunting in SE AK. The 458 I had built only served me for about a year before I moved out of the region and then retired. It was an unfinished project for a long time.

It and the SOCOM I'm building may serve me again in Alaska if I decide to stay beyond summer, but until then I'll just use the pump shotgun that I leave there, and the Brenneke slugs.

I also still have the 9.3mm wildcat that I'm itching to use.

And I've got a 35 Whelen custom on a CZ 550 action, walnut stock, which is practically a new rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

To be ultimately practical, if you want to shoot cast bullets, you need to learn to make your own.
Then you will not be ultimately dependent on Buffalo Bore.
Come to think of it, you must surely want to shoot cast bullets in your .458 WIN with short throat and slow twist.
That kind of tinkering with a .458 WIN is not desirable for use of 300-grain and heavier monometal/jacketed, for any recoil level you like,
low pressure, fast, and accurate, in long throat and 1:14" twist
Your rifle is a .458 Winchester Special, like Gil Sengel built, perfect for getting the most out of cast bullets.
Sort of like gelding the Triple Crown WINner and putting him out to pasture with no stud service.
But, still better for bear than a .458 SOCOM.

Rip ...

Who wants to be "ultimately practical"? Not me

Who wants to shoot cast bullets? Not me

I'm not "ultimately dependent on Buffalo Bore either.

Short throat and 20" twist worked for the 45-70 for way over 100 years, and keeps on trucking.

If I wanted to shoot heavy .458 bullets, I would have the standard 458WM chamber and throat. But those heavy bullets would defeat my purpose and are actually no fun at all for me.

Instead of the analogy of gelding the Triple Crown Winner, my "tinkering with the 458 WIN" is liberating the 45-70 wannabe. Maybe such rifles as my tinkered 458 and the 45-70 are suitable for cast bullets, but I have little or no desire in using them.

If the 45-70 would feed reliably in a bolt action, I would have used it. Instead, when they came out with the 450 Marlin I thought that was the one. I could not get it to feed right in a short bolt action. Once, long ago, I messed with the Siamese Mauser action with the notion of the 450 Alaskan cartridge, but couldn't get it to feed suitable, so I never barreled the action and sold it. But I'm glad I graduated to the 458. It's where I should have gone in the first place. It performs and feeds just like it ought to, better than expected.

Yes, my tinkered 458 is better for bears than the 458 SOCOM, if "better" is measured in power. It's sorta like saying the 45-70 is better than the 458 SOCOM for bears. It's arguable. There are many pistols being toted for bear defense protection. One reads more success stories about that than the failures. I don't particularly like pistols and don't know of any that can match the performance level of the 458 SOCOM.

I used to fancy the 44 Mag, and often wished for a lever action, or other rifle in 44 Mag. I've owned two of those Ruger carbines in 44 Mag. Yes, it took two for me to figure out why they are so inaccurate. If they made a rimless 44 Mag for the AR, I would own one, and probably never have graduated to the 458 SOCOM.

Now, I'm so glad that the 45-70 and the 44 Mag are not rimless. Now, I have something much better for me in the tinkered 458 WM and the 458 SOCOM. They are like the 45-70 and the 44 Mag on steroids, respectively, and the platforms, bolt action and AR15, are much better suited for me than anything available for the 45-70 or 44 Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:



just curious... how many bear guides opt for a double? Seems to many in Africa they are indispensable, but are they common with bear guides? Would think the application is identical.

I have been in on a few incidents where the ability to almost instantly fire a second round would have been much appreciated, but even though at the time if felt like I was slow as molasses with a bolt action I obviously survived with a slower second shot from a bolt rifle.

I have carried a 450/400 double for awhile and Joe Want carried a H&H Royal in 500 nitro for a decade on Kodiak but both he and I went back to bolt rifles. I think that, besides being more rugged, their ability to make accurate hits at longer ranges precludes the need for close range encounters.

The reason double rifles are not favored by guides, or anyone else, for brown bear is in large part because of the cost and also because they are not stainless.

the only double rifle that I know of that is anywhere close to affordable is like this one:

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101129609

9.3x74R

VALMET MODEL 412S DOUBLE RIFLE 9.3X74R $1,950

Here are a few samples of others:

Heym 26B Double Rifle 9.3x74R - $4,699.99

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/793754704

Beretta S689 Gold Sable 9.3X74R NEW IN CASE $4,995

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/792913515

Sodia Double Rifle SxS Engraved 9.3x74R $5,999.99

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/794346514

And those are just a few of the lower priced rifles.

Early African hunters writings show that they gladly transitioned from the old black powder heavy rifles to modern high velocity smokeless rifles due to stopping power and shootability provided by the new technology. When "Bear Stopping Rifles" are discussed many people appear to feel that pushing heavy slugs to black powder velocities is the best solution. I find that interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_bore

4 bore?