I'm considering booking a fishing trip to very northern Ontario where it's advised you bring a rifle for protection from polar bear. I'm looking at two rifles right now, the CZ 550 in 375 H&H and Marlin lever action in 45-70. I'm leaning towards the CZ because it's controlled feed.

If I go with the CZ, what's the minimum barrel length I could get away with in 375H&H. I'm looking to make this rifle as packable as possible.

Lastly, would I be better off going with the .458 Winchester chambering in the CZ for polar bear protection? Thanks, all advice appreciated.

Bigger the better if you can shoot it from all the field position you can conjur up....

My choice is a 416 Rem or 404, but I could get by with a 338 or 375 just fine, even on elephants.

For bear protection, any of those guns mentioned will do the trick. Take the one that you can shoot the best...

A well placed shot from a 30-06 will be alot better than an ass shot with a .458

Bear attacks are not very common, but it's good to be prepared.

If you can find a box of 540 gr. Hammerheads for the 45/70, go with the Marlin. Here's a link to powerful bear busters Much more packable, and as much thump at close range as the 375 H&H when loaded with heavy hardcast bullets. And maybe a little faster to reload than a full length 375 H&H. Either one is a real powerhouse, but I'd prefer the 1895G.

[ 05-13-2003, 01:32: Message edited by: todbartell ]

If you are a lever guy, then a 50 Alaskan or 50-110 would be the magic.

If you are a bolt guy, the easiest route is a 500 A-Square, although I suspect that 585 nyati and 600 overkill would work too.

MDF 45
Realistically any of the thumpers mentioned here would work. Sounds like youre looking for a new rifle and for an easy, reasonable cost, off the shelf solution it's hard to argue with an 1895G loaded with Garret or Buffalo Bore 400 gn and up ammo.Plus it's light and handy so a lot more likely to be strapped to your back or close at hand when focused on the task at hand of fooling the fish.Not the first choice for hunting them on purpose but a decent insurance policy for an unlikely encounter.
Hope you have a good trip,
Ron

My cousin is a guide in Alaska, He uses a 338 Win Mag.

Jim

Hey there, I
I have ot side with Ray and second the .404 or 416. My third choice would be a .458 Winny, just because you can always find ammo in a pinch. However....
If you consider a .338, let me know as my father just offered me a Win classic, in a 338. Its a complete package. Dies, brass, lead, Factory wood and factory composite stacks, iron sights. It was broke in right and has never been in the bush. Even has an extra trigger(not sure which one but he said he had one) He bought it to go on a caribou hunt and, well the health is not what it was so our trip up north was cancelled. Anyway, let me know as he was only asking $500 bucks and a guarantee it was going to a good home. Granted you would have to pay shipping to FFL but thats kinda a given.

Regards,
JAG

For protection, you won't be taking 200 yd shots with a scope, but you might need to put the muzzle against a bear's head while your foot is in his mouth (worse case scenario). Get the shortest, meanest, iron-sighted big bore that you can handle. One that holds lots of cartridges.

My personal choice for animal defense would be the H&K SLB2000 in 9.3x62, but any .30-06 or greater auto-loader would suffice.

1895 Guide Gun
loaded with
http://www.buffalobore.com/
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/

Quick to handle and LOTS of energy AND weight.

This site is dominated by African hunters, so, most of the answers are predictable. But, you are not getting the gun for Africa.

Go with the 45/70. At 37.5 inches and 7.5 pounds firing a 420 grain bullet at 1950 fps a 540 grain bullet at 1550 fps it is hard to beat as a close quarters bear defense gun. It has all the power you need at close range.

It can be had for 450 dollars. Add an ashley ghost ring sight and you are set.

Remember, if you need the range and trajectory of a bolt action big bore magnum it's not self defense.

Just my thoughts,
Jeff Collins

As far as I know Alaska F&G uses 12 ga,do they not. derf

I would go for the cz and get the .375 and have the barrel lopped to 22"

The other alternative is to buy a cz in .458 win mag lop the barrel to 22" and run a .458 lott reamer up it and add some cross bolts etc. Zero this baby with 500 gr woodleigh's to 50 yards with the standard express sights and go whop your self a bear If you like scopes add a 2.5x compact leupold in warnes or talley QD's.

I second PC's 375 choice.
My brother owns one in a CZ550 with barrel docked to 21.5" for use in thick rainforest. Very handy.

Karl.

MDF45
A rifle for bear hunting is one subject, your question is for bear PROTECTION. I have a 20" bbl'd SAKO Handy-Rifle that with iron sights would make a good choice, as would any larger bore bolt rifle with a short bbl that is HANDY to carry while fishing. My brother has a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 that may be even better for bear PROTECTION WITH THE PROPER AMMO. [Garrett Buffalo Bore, Corbon, etc. The main thing is you need a rifle that is powerful, compact and quick to get into action. Carrying any rifle while fishing is a pain, but in Canada a hand gun is out of the question.
Something I have seen some hunters who chase pigs with dogs do is to fix up a rifle scabbard with a comfortable set of straps, including a waist strap, just like a backpack, so the rifle is just over one of your shoulders and can be drawn out of the scabbard while standing or even running. This would hold it secure and allow a more comfortable carry than just slinging it over your shoulder. It will not do you any good to have your rifle up against a "nearby" tree when the bear gets after you.
If I was casting with my right hand I would want the rifle on my left shoulder side so as not to interfere with my fishing pole.
Remember have your rifle "ON YOU" at all times, because it is illegal to feed the bears.
Good luck fishing.

Now folks, don't have a heart attack!

On this one I'm going to have to agree with the lever guys, and the old 45-70! This is where the lever 45-70 comes into it's proper place! I have an OLD Mod 1895 Marlin without the MICRO-GROOVE barrel. I had the barrel cut to 18",turning it into a TRAPPER, and mounted a Ghost ring , and a 3/32" white bead up front. The magazine is full length to the muzzel. I mounted a QD sling swivel just in back of the front sight, on the Mag tube, and the back swivel in the normal place, just forward of the Pachmyer decellarator pad. I use one of the Neoprene slings that have the friction pad so it stays on your shoulder. This set up is perfect for fishermen, because it is small, it is more likely to be on your shoulder where a protection weapon should be! This leaves the hands free to fish, like a pistol, but is far more adiquate for the BIG BEARS. Gatehouse says Bear attacks are rare, and he is right, for everything except the POLAR BEAR! The polar Bear is the only bear that naturally stalks man for food, and are quite aggressive, especially at popular fishing spots!

I load 450 gr Woodliegh soft points, with the round nose cut flat, for the tube mag, ahead of a full charge of IMR 3031. It will get even a big brown bear's attention, and absolutely ruin his day! For hunting, however, the Bolt action CRF chambered for 375 H&H is perfect! This is a 10 yd rifle and the sights should be zeroed at no more than fifty yds!

Stay away from simi-autos for use in Canada, and for that matter all very cold climates!

MACD you shouldn't have to cut woodleigh .458 bullets down as they make a 405 gr .458 cal bullet with a falt point especially for the 45/70.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/q&a.asp

I was reading garrett's Q&A's, and he pushes his 540 cast bullet, at about 1500 fps as a real stopper.

That got me thinking, always dangerous.

Ray, you have commented that heavy bullets in 458, 500 grains in particular, hit noticeably harder then others. Would the Garrett 540 grain, even though the velocity is low, make a great stopper?

How about heavier cast bullets, done as suggested by Garrett, at velocities between 1500-1800FPS?

In other words, would a stopping round, very heavy, big caliber, 458 or above, be superior to one of our more popular cartridges, like the 375 or 416, at close range? Larger bullet, more damage, less recoil, lower pressure, better chance of getting off a second shot?

What velocities did the old nitro express guys use
in their doubles at close range? 577-600 caliber, with a very heavy, big bullet, that did deform?

One last question: Do you know if at very close range, the higher velocity bullets hold together?

Maybe that guy with the law suit shot the lion at point blank range, and the bullet blew up, moving to fast, upon hitting bone???

s

[ 05-14-2003, 02:03: Message edited by: Socrates ]

If you are to protect yourself from a bear, one would assume you will be firing at an animal no further than 20yards away, facing you, presenting it's vitals.

I would take a high capacity compact pump action 12ga or 10ga if they are availiable in your part of the world(they aren't legal here), loaded up with slugs.

For packability, look into a pistol grip folding stock model.

When I was bumming around the woods on the goverment's nickle they issued us 870 remington with a smooth bore and loaded with the old Berneeke{sp} slugs, up close on bears it was fast and very deadly

Dave, between 1981-3 I helped develop, by accuracy shooting, a 45 caliber, 500 grain sabot shotgun round. Cast between 22-25 Brinell hardness, and at about 1700 fps, give or take a few feet, it was cast similar to the Garrett Hammerheads.

Ballistics Research Incorporated was the name of the firm(B.R.I. on the box).
Ever try em?

s

MacD, I figured you were on the ball mate

What are the 480 gr woodleigh's like ?? They would be ideal for the .458 win mag might be the answer to some of that cartridges problems. If I build a lott or .450 Rigby on a cz .458 which I plan to do that might be the bullet of choice. However I am still waiting on my 9.3x62 cz first

First of all, I'd be interested to know who said you need a gun for polar bear protection. I'd also be interested to know where you're going.

For instance, if you're going to be on the Missinaibee running into James Bay, much of that river is a provincial park and firearms are not allowed.

Hundreds of canoeists run north each summer to Hudson's Bay and James Bay, and polar bears just aren't an issue. I can't imagine taking a gun with me fishing anywhere in Ontario for protection, except maybe along the Credit River in Toronto, and that would not be for bears.

On the other hand, I sometimes take a rifle or shotgun during hunting season for opportunity shots.

If you're serious about defense, take a shotgun with slugs, but you are going to have pure hell to pay when you try to explain it to the Ministry of Natural Resources. Pure hell.

kk

PC , the 450, to 480 gr bullet is what should have been loaded in the 458 Win Mag to start with. This case simply does not have the powder capicity to handle 500 gr bullets properly.

The 480 is designed for the 450NE 3.25" @ 2150 fps. this combination has accounted for more Elephant, and Buffalo than any thing over .375 in diameter! Being in Aussie land, the Woodlieghs should be easy for you to get, and cheaper than for me! Try them and I think you will be pleasently suprised!

Karl:

What I'm asking is at point blank range, are you better off with a huge slug, at lower velocity, or the lighter slugs, 300-400 grains, at higher velocity?

And you are right, I am looking at those old Nitro Express rounds. Maybe a 600-700 grain 577
bullet, at 1500 fps, at point blank range, is a better stopper then a 500 grain bullet at 2150?

Don't know....

Saeed:
What does Roy Vincent use in his Nyati? The 750's at about 1800, or the cast bullets, 1200 grains, at about 1200 or so?

s

[ 05-14-2003, 21:13: Message edited by: Socrates ]

I think that MacD37 has the perfect solution to a Bear Protection rifle. Handy and deadly at the ranges you would need to use it at. Put on a John Wayne lever and get the scabbard that is sold by Nimrod for their fanny pack combos and you would have an ideal setup.

A bolt action rifle is way too cumbersome and clumsy and a rifle will only help when you have it with you. You do not need a scope for any reason.

If you do end up shooting a bear you will problably find that letting him chew on you would have been more pleasant than dealing with the Government over it.

Mac when I build my .458 whatever that is the bullet I would like to try actually.

The woodleigh's here are similar to sierra's and speers in price.

Barnes X's for us are way to dear.

In my 8 years of fishing in Alaska, a 12 gauge pump is by far the most popular "fishing gun".

Socrates, in fact I have and still have two five round boxes of them, they were my back up if I could not get ahold of the Berneke's, the best group I ever shot with them was at 75 yards out of my Tar-Hunt 12, I will not say how tight they were but you could cover the whole group of five with the 16oz dixe cup, I took one black that year at around 85 yards and never recovered the slug,going away shot and it went in behind the on shoulder and came out the lower neck.

Karl:
I'm unlikely, in this lifetime, to see those effects. I have to ask others for their experiences.
See I don't think kentic energy is what really counts. I think it's the velocity of the bullet, plus it's weight, maintained through the animal, that determines the effect. So the reason Ray likes 500 grain softpoints on lion is the bullet hits, deforms, but the weight keeps it going through the game at it's enlarged size, that results in a very large wound channel, since the increase in bullet weight keeps the bullet going at a velocity that still does damage.

In other words, if you test bullets in gelatin, you get a wound channel that is very large at the beggining, and, as the velocity decreases, the wound channel decreases. 223 rifle is the best for this. Wound channel looks like a plant bulb, big on entry, tapering quickly to nothing.

With expanding bullets, you need a large core to drive the core through the target at high velocity. Another guy does lots of ballistics tests, and comes up with 16 inches of gelatin penetration as being ideal, for anti-human rounds.
I don't like that.
I would rather have the bullet expand, and still retain enough weight to penetrate the entire block, with the same diameter wound channel. In other words, maintain it's velocity through the target.

I guess my point in all this is kenetic energy is important, but I think for a different reason then it's often used. I could be wrong.

I also went through the debate of what caliber heavy rifle to buy. I found a story of a guy that built a 4 bore, and hit a cape buffalo with it. The damn buffalo still went 60 yards, after taking a 4 bore, that's a roughly 1800 grain slug, at something like 1800 fps.
I decided that I couldnt' shoot anything that was going to stun a buffalo, etc. so I went with a 375 H&H, and just hoped I could shoot it straight, which I can.

Dave:
Myself and the owner, test fired a whole bunch of rounds at 50 yards, before he put them on the market. If the load wouldn't group under an inch at 50, out of the remmington shotgun, benched, with a scope, he wouldn't use it. He wanted one hole, period.

So I know damn well how small the groups are with that round, and I just hope whoever now has the patent does it justice.

He did a great design job, and my shoulder paid the price. Full magnum shotgun rounds benched, are NOT fun.
Glad you enjoyed the product. We enjoyed the development stages...

By the way, that round blew big, 1 inch holes straight threw deer. Always wondered what it would do on bear, or cape buffalo, etc.

Guess that's why I get so mad at these idiots that don't know cast bullets can work on dangerous game...
Young, stupid, whipper snappers...

And, they give you lip....
s

Yep.. I'll vote for a little lever 45-70. My " Lil' Brute" started as a guide gun, I chopped it to 16 inches, lost an inch or so off the stock,thinned the forend, added a kick-eze recoil pad and a Firesight front bead.... love it , love it, love it. Stubby and handy. 6 1/2 pounds and for some reason, more accurate than before I cut it.

[ 05-15-2003, 09:33: Message edited by: cas ]

That's sweet! Monster firepower for such a small package.

I want one...

Pertinax

Cas, I bet those ear muffs come in handy NICE RIFLE

Anyone care to comment on the 458 SoCom as a bear defense rifle option?

I wonder how much muzzle blast of a 450 Marlin would KICK UP compaired to CAS's 45-70 LiL Brute...

Just a reminder us of what we are defending ourselves from here. I love this photo.

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003147#000008

Karl.